MMACFIVE

For back ground a few years ago I bought a 1990'ish Remington KS Mountain Rifle in 7mm STW. This Rifle has been very finicky to load for. I've found a load of Nosler 168gr ABLR over a heavy charge of IMR 7797 with F215s and RP brass that gives 3125 fps and a legit 1/2 MOA. It will also shoot Nosler 160 AB with a couple more grains of the same powder at 3200 fps to nearly the same group, A friend gave me a nearly full box of Berger 168gr VLD hunting bullets. I figured I'd load some up, sight in, and ring steel the other day. I am constricted by the magazine length so I just used the same load as the Nosler 168gr ABLR at 3.65" OACL (max for my box). I shot one 3 shot group at 100 yards and it was a little over 5"? I've always heard good things about how Berger's shoot so I expected better. I shot a verification round of my 168gr Nosler ABLR then used them for the steel. My bore probably had 35-40 (still within its accuracy range) of the Nosler's through it before I tried the Berger's. Does anybody have any suggestions. The easy thing is to shoot the Noslers! BTW it wont shoot 162gr ELD-X's worth a crap either. Mike

Zeke, I tend to agree with you. A 1/2 MOA gun at those velocities is good enough! But I like to tinker. And I have a box of Bergers. You gave me a good idea. For shooting steel I am OK with a single shot. I will try my current load jammed into the lands and turn in the seating depth up to Lance's .120" and give it a try. I won't do a new ladder test with the Bergers but I am likely to follow Lances protocol with the ELD-X's. Mike

Thank you Lance, I want to make sure what you said or at least what I heard. Since my gun has shown itself capable of good accuracy and even though the single group I shot was over 5" that you would expect the Bergers to shoot well. You are suggesting that I start all over with a ladder test, then go to OACL testing to dial it in? Like I said in my OP the easy thing to do is shoot the Noslers. I obviously don't have any attachment to Bergers. But I'd really like to shoot the 162 gr ELD-X. Would you expect the same to work for the Horndy's? Mike

Do you still these for sale?

Help, I am considering purchasing a pair of Kowa Highlanders. Has anyone looked through both the flourite and non-flourite versions to judge whether its worth the extra $1400? I've only played with the flourite version. Also, in reality would I need other eyepieces other than the 32x? Thanks, Mike

I forgot the cool factor! And I completely understand.

Just curious, but what is the advantage to a 6.5x270 AI over a 6.5x06 AI or 6.5x280AI? The only thing I can think of might be a little extra neck length.

Six of us got behind Swaro's and Leica's and compared them. Our conclusion is the Swaro HD is number one. Close behind is the Leica. And a distant third is the Swaro neu. If you buy the Swarovski make sure you get the HD version.

I've hear the lead on the Forbes 6.5 is too long for any of the long range bullets. Did you ever try to reload to Bergers to just touching the lands?

All good advice so far. There is an outside chance that you have a maximum dimension sizing die and a minimum dimension chamber. If you have access to other dies try them and see if that solves the problem. Removing about 25 thousand from the base of your dies will help with the dimensions but exasperate the shoulder set back. You can buy "small base" dies if you need to.

My son and I were in 35A the last 5 days of the year. Nearly every buck we saw was traveling and trolling. The does weren't having any of it. When the bucks would start nosing around they would sprint off and the buck would put it nose down and go find other does.

I had soo much fun in my last post "Is Sectional Density by itself worthless" that I just have to give it one more try. I've always been attracted to non main stream cartridges like the 257 Roberst, 6.5x55 swede, the 280 Remington, etc. Often these cartridges are not loaded to their full potential because of older actions (or Remington's screw up!) I will use the 30-06 as am example parent case: Cartridge SAAMI PSI 25-06 63,000 6.5-06 A Square 65,000 270 Win 65,000 280 Rem 60,000 30-06 60,000 338-06 A Square 63,000 35 Whelen 63,000 It makes sense to me that If Everything IS Held Constant (file, bullets construction, brass, etc.) than the chamber pressure should be the same. So for many years I have made the assumption that if you are shooting within a "Parent" case that all calibers should shoot a bullets with the same SD at the same velocity (Again this is assuming that everything but the diameter is the same across the bullets!) Part of my assumption is that sense SD is a mathematical representation of the bullets weight and diameter it will partly account for things like bearing surface and expansion ratio. So far this has worked out very well for me..or maybe I've just got lucky. I would like to hear constructive challenge of this theorem. And I'd like to thank 308nut for his healthy input into my last post. Mike

Please, please tell me how to end it? I want a redo!

"Definitely Hi-Jacked now"....N.S. But it was dead before it ever started. I'm kinda new here. Do all bad posts lead to the same place over time (sex, bowel movements, gun control, etc)? And I'm not quite sure how having sex twice and 2 kids is lucky...seems very unlucky to me.

Bob Hagel printed a book in 1978 called "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter". You can still pick up copies on eBay cheap if you want a little reloading history. For many of us, at least for me, It was the bible of reloading. Bob was was ahead of his time. In Bob's book the 264WM is pushing 140's at 3180+. Lark is also right that when the 264 was announced the 140's were going around 3200 fps. Litigation/Liability and technology has sure impacted all of us. We (some of the old fogies on this forum) used to be obsessed with velocity, and 450 yards was a freaking long ways. Range Finders have really changed the game and velocity is not nearly as important. And our accuracy expectations have changed also. We use to want to shoot as fast as we could and sight our rifles in for a "maximum point blank range". MOA was good enough. On deer you could hold dead on to about 350 yards or so and just pull the trigger. The faster you went the longer the point blank range. This explains why I am still enamored with velocity! Mike

Dang it, it hurts me to say this but I lean towards Lark on this one. I am a firm believer that velocity follows case capacity. The 264 Win Mag has about 10 grains or roughly 15% more capacity than the 6.5-06 AI so it should be able to push the same bullet faster with the same psi. I want to own one of those two cartridges some day and the decision will be dependent on the platform I build it on. If I re-barrel a standard length magazine it will be the 6.5-06. If I replace my 7 STW it will be the 264 win mag with the bullet seated out as far as practical. If you are exceeding the 264 WM velocities with your 6.5-06 AI I'd be willing to bet you are loading at or above 65 kpsi. If the 264 is loaded to the same psi it should produce more fps.

Stomp, If your 6.5-06 AI velocities are about the same as the 264 Win mag why do you expect the barrel life to be much different?

I totally agree with you on your SD paragraph. Well said. If my parent case capacity theory was absolutely accurate it would say that you are driving the 25 too hot or the 30-06 not not enough. I've shot enough 120s out of the 25-06 to know that is a reasonable velocity. And I've shot enough 30-06 to know I can't safely get 3100 with a 168. But my theory makes me think there is some place in the middle with the 30-06. I can get about 3000 with the 168's. Remember I am assuming I can load an additional 5kPSI pressure safely in the 06. With Hodgdon Superformace I just might get close to 3100 with the 168s....HSP works really well in most of the 30-06 size cases.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to come across that I need to prove anything. I've just been operating under the theory that a given case capacity should shoot a bullet with the same SD the same velocity. All I wanted was some independent challenge to see if I am way off base. I use the case capacity theory with different cartridges also. My 300 H&H is about the same capacity as the 300 Win mag so I cross reference those loads. There are often more up to date loads with the newer powders with the more popular cartridges. For example Nosler just published a bunch of loads for their new 28 Nosler. They probably won't update my 7mm STW any time soon but since the case capacity between the 2 cases is within about 1 grain I can use the new 28 Nosler data as a reference for my STW. As for what specifically has worked out well for me? I just bought a Forbes 24b in 6.5x55. As most know this cartridge is loaded to very low specs because of some of the old actions. I should be able to load it to the same pressures as the 25-06 and 270 win since they are also loaded in the same gun. With my O.C.L. I calculated my usable volume (54g) to be between the 260 rem and the 6.5x284, therefore I should expect my velocities to represent that. I am getting 3000fps with a 130 NAB from the Forbes with no pressure signs so it worked out for me in this case. I also want to apologize for the period bumps....they weren't intentional. Just pure exasperation trying to learn a new editing system that would not let me do what I thought it should....but I did learn how to bump to the top!

Like NRALIFER stated above I also started using HSP when it was released based upon its burn rate. In my experience it is very similar to H4831. I have loaded it in multiple cartridges: 300 Weatherby, 7mm STW, 280 rem, 270 win, 6.5x55, 25-06, and others. In the large cases it has given me the same velocities as H4831/rR22/IMR7828/IMR7797 etc. In some rifles I've got great velocities but poor groups. But boy does it ever meter good! In the 30-06 size cases it has done a little better. In a Rifles Inc. 270 with a 23" barrel 60gr of HSp will send a 129gr LRX out the tube at 3350fps....really. I backed it down to 58 1/2 gr and shoot 3200+fps and less than .5MOA groups with a rifle that weighs 6lb 8oz all loaded up with a VX3 4.5-14, full magazine of cartridges and a sling. I get 3150 fps with a Barnes 145g LRX in a 280 and could go higher. Look at the Hodgdon reloading sight as they are always adding HSP. They have it for the 280 rem now. For the most part I have been trying to switch to the temperature insensitive powders....I do dot know how well HSP is with respect to temperature extremes. Does anyone?

After many decades of reloading and hunting I am of the opinion that SD in and un its-self is worthless. For example I believe a 7mm 120gr Barnes TTSX with a SD of .213 will out penetrate a 180 Berger 7mm with a SD of .319. What is important is the Post Expansion (PE) SD and the Berger looses so much weight and has a larger diameter which gives it a lower PE SD than the Bartnes 120. Any Comments.

Nice. heck I might even like you with a bottle of Jack between us.

270, From everything I've read 308 is right on the money, the money, the money. oh wait did I stutter. I have not seen you add a D!@#$ thing that actually contributes to this. In fact you have said a few things that are just foolish, And it seems to be pretty antagonistic. But lets not forget I'm the hostile one here....I have to admit I didn't recognize from the quality of your comments your expertise. But now that I noticed you have nearly 5000 posts so you must be an expert at nearly everything.

Thank you, I'll own that....the jerk comment might not of been helpful. But you have to admit previous comments could allow for much worse implications. I don't understand why these forums get so attacking. Why does someone need to prove their mental superiority? Yes penetration on animals is variable. Although this wasn't meant to to be about bullets selection I know that I use a bullets that work in the worst shot locations and if or when I lose and animal it will be on me, not my bullet. You almost never hear someone owing something they did wrong.....its always the bullet.

I'm just glad none of us are too old to learn something new. When all things were equal, SD was a pretty direct correlation to penetration. Now we have solids, monolithics, explosive, bonded, interlocked, etc so it doesn't' quite mean the same. Even though its been around along a long time other parameters have changed. Heck, even ole Bryan Litz might be learning a thing or two about BCs with Doppler now? So if you can't stay on point or if you just have to be jerk about it maybe you should just stay out of the conversation? SD is just a mathematical expression of weight to diameter. Given equal construction it gives us a reference point of penetration between multiple diameters...so maybe it isn't quite dead yet. Or had you already implied that and I missed it?