Redbeard

effenjeff wins! Actually I did a pretty quick job taping him. Now that the skull is clean I'll try to get a little more accurate but it should be pretty close to 370, give or take an inch. If I could take pictures like Josh I could make him 400!

Thanks guys. Just finishing boiling out the skull. Remember I am as bad at taking pictures as Josh is good. Keep guessing.

Oh, don't get me started on your shooting skills! You don't want everybody to know about that! Looks like you hit your bull a little high by the way. My excuse is shooting a stinking wheelbow. For some reason it was shooting a foot low all of a sudden. Of course I wouldn't have even had a shot if I was using my longbow. I just wussed out and decided on a limited opportunity hunt I might want to increase by effective range by 20 yards with the compound. So far it hasn't helped though. I'm sneaking away from work in one minute to head out. I'm gonna get one this weekend. Heck, with this any elk tag I'd shoot a cow if I ever saw one. later, cjd

I have managed to stay out of the hospital etc. Maybe you should come guide me. I'm heading back out tomorrow afternoon to try and find the big one I missed the other day.

Josh, Never mind I found the story. Chris

Super congrats on a TOAD bull dude! I have been checking this site since you sent me the email with the pics waiting to see you post about it. I have looked in bowhunting and AZ hunting and saw nothing so this morning I finally make a thread asking you to post up then scroll down to the bottom of the main page and see "other big game" Duh. There you are. Nice going man. That thing is just beautiful!

Great bull Chase and welcome to the site. I hope you and everybody else knows I was just trying to explain why P&Y measurers are not supposed to do green scores. I didn't mean to stir anything else up but I couldn't help but make the comments about the yearly talk about new world records that rarely materialized. Rumors get started on these forums and almost always degenerate into some kind of controversy. Just a little pet peeve of mine but it was in NO WAY directed at you or Jade. Just me saying, "oh no this sounds like it is going to be another one of those." I should have not said anything. Again, congrats and enjoy your fine bull. I have my biggest bull European style in my living room. I killed it 10 years ago but I still look at it and sometimes think, "That right there is a beautiful bull. I can't believe it is mine." I've got my nontypical in my bedroom and it is the first thing I see every morning. Sometimes I still think, "Dang! That bull looks cool!" You should feel the same about yours for a LONG time to come.

Hey Jade, I hope you don't think I was suggesting anything shady. I have no reason to believe these guys are anything but perfectly honest. My main reason for the post was to explain why P&Y measurers are not supposed to do green scores. I was not saying guys shouldn't try to score their own or get somebody else to, just not P&Y measurers. I was not saying you guys were score shopping either just that it happens. I'm not saying P&Y guys would lie either! Sometimes there is a judgement call especially when NT points are involved. One local P&Y measurer had a guy come to him once and he didn't like the way he said it should be scored so he went shopping until he found a measurer (in another state I think) that agreed with him and then had him do it. The bull ended up being a state record in the state it was killed (not AZ) and the guy sold the rack for a bunch of $. This happens more than you may think. It isn't the measurers lieing it is just sometimes there is a judgement that has to be made. That's why they have a panel of measurers score the top trophies before they are official. Again I'm just trying to explain why things are the way they are and why sometimes when people are secretive about stuff it doesn't look too good. Great bull and who cares about the score! But don't make us by a magazine to hear the details. Chris

Jade, P&Y measurers are discouraged from green scoring heads that will later be officially measured. Some people will do this and shop for the highest score for example or the hunter may be upset when the official comes in lower than the green score. It looks like a nice bull but every year there are several bull killed that people make a huge deal out of and try to get famous from by claiming they will beat the world record. Almost every time they are wrong and very often those bull are never officially entered. The secrecy already surrounding this bull smells like the same kind of thing. I'm not bashing you or the hunter but just pointing out what it looks like from an outside observer. FWIW. when I look at the picture I don't see a net score over 400". It is hard to judge from a picture though.

I shoot a Morrison Dakota longbow 58#. I use easton epics 400 30" long and a 125 gr Wensel Woodsman broadhead with a 100gr steel insert. Flys great. The steel broadhead inserts are the ticket. The Woodsmans are devastating too.

Ahh that's a dink. My uncle's brother's girlfriend's sister's kid shot one bigger than that down by gila bend and he let the big one go.

OK you can't be serious? I know you are a young guy but come on? So since you couldn't get closer than 80 yards on opening weekend you figure you just need to get a longer range weapon? I'm sorry but that is just so wrong. Bowhunting is supposed to be challenging. The "sport" in it is that you HAVE TO GET CLOSE! Heck, all hunting is supposed to be challenging! Please quit bowhunting now and buy a rifle. Please! You will enjoy the easier success and will not give bowhunters a bad image.

There is only ONE spread credit. The widest distance between the inside of the beams taken perpendicular to the center line of the skull. Meaning if you drew a line from the forehead down the middle of the nose you measure the spread perpendicular to that line. The other spread measurements are only supplimental data but do not figure into the score. So if your inside spread is 19" but the main beam length is 18" then you only get to use 18" of the spread in the score. If the spread is 17" then you get the whole 17". I hope this helps.

I spent 40 hours in three days sitting over the spot where we have been getting pictures of some big bucks. Saw 1 doe and a bear. The bear walked right next to my blind without taking notice. A real pretty reddish less than 200 pounder. I sat in a tree the first day and a half then in a ground blind the second day and a half since it was too hot to sit in the tree in the afternoon. The first day was brutal but once I put in the clutch on my brain the last two days weren't so bad. I rigged up my XM radio and had plenty of reading material but by the third day I didn't even do much of that. I was just concentrating trying to will in a deer. It was good therapy at least. My Dad died exactly one year ago this weekend. I had plenty of time to sit and think in silence. Andy sat a couple different spots and had about the same luck. A new huge buck had shown up on the camera at Andy's spot but it didn't come back this weekend. Also Devin showed up for Sat-Mon. He missed a nice buck on Sunday. We had over 100 hours of stand time between us and only one shot. It was pretty tough. Maybe all the quad traffic in the forest buggered them up a little. I know they weren't spooked or smelling us they just changed patterns. We were sitting on little tiny waterholes that had mostly dried up. MoreD, Way to go taking the kid out. You can make a difference. Young people need to have some interest to keep them out of trouble. Jeffy, My allergies have been so bad I went and got an allergy shot last week. I was not going to let that ruin my hunt. It worked really well.

It is hard to tell in the picture since it is so small but the last pic is not the same buck as the few above it. Similar mass but it is a nontypical. I think Andy and I are going to tag team these deer. One of us will be sitting this stand every daylight hour. I originally thought I'd shoot the first decent 3 point that showed up but with these two big bucks coming in now I'm going to have to hold out. I'll probably miss anyway since I'll be all dizzy. I'm not sure if this picture will post but if it does feel free to tell me what you think of this buck's mass at the bases. I can't figure out how big he is except that he's big enough for me.

Chad, I have spent a TON of time on Pine Mtn. I practically lived in unit 21 for 5 years. Maybe this will answer your question. I don't hunt there anymore. The odds are just too low for the effort.

Dave, I have known quite a few good archers who have developed serious target panic. I have had times when I think I was getting it too. It is amazing how subconscious things get programmed. Some of my friends have cured it the way you are going and others just keep it a bay but it seems to pop up a time or two every 3D shoot. I've known a couple who just about quit hunting over it. I think you are taking the right approach. I admire your discipline and dedication. How do I practice...? Here are a few of my experiences. One thing I can say is if I start flinching, punching, double clutching, or any of the other nasty things that can come up I know I am shooting too much. I just stop rather than try to fight through it. I've seen enough guys just totally fall apart trying to fight it. I finally adopted a seasonal approach for archery and during the season I try not to shoot too often or too long. I don't do 3D's and am not into long shots so I can live with the range/accuracy limitations of less practice. I do need more practice with the compound bow to get more comfortable in hunting situations but for now I really only want to hunt with my longbow. It just seems so much more natural to me in the woods. Instinctive shooting is so much different than shooting modern bows. I used to shoot my trad bows way too much. Of course early on you need to shoot a lot to get it programmed into your muscle memory and spatial awareness. Now I try my best not to shoot at targets with my longbow unless I have to for conditioning or to check broadhead flight. It is just too hard for me to maintain sufficient concentration for instinctive shooting for more than a few shots. Once I start losing accuracy all kinds of mental stuff kicks in and I start thinking about the shot mechanics too much and I start spraying arrows. Sometimes at home I lose concentration so bad I miss my whole makenzie deer at 30. If I really slow down and relax I can get it together but I prefer just to keep it short. Sometimes I just walk out and shoot a few arrows then put it away. Most of my practice trad shooting is in the field. I almost always bring my longbow in the woods whenever I go for a hike or scouting. I just stump shoot one arrow every so often. I usually pick a target while walking and imagine it is an animal. It really helps me focus on one shot and one spot. Sometimes I even sort of stalk to a good shooting position with cover just like I would hunting. I nock an arrow and shoot within a few seconds. I'm amazed at how accurate I can shoot in those high focus low repetition scenarios. With instinctive shooting my best shot is always the first one because I disengage the brain. Last weekend Andy and I were out scouting and I was "killing" sticks etc. at ranges sometimes over 40 yards. That's a long shot for me with a longbow. My limit on an animal is about 25. One other thing I practice. .. I watch hunting videos and TOTALLY focus on a spot on the animal in the scene and call my shot. By call the shot I mean when to shoot based on what the animal is doing and shot angle etc. My wife and kids can be bugging me and I absolutely cannot take my concentration off the spot. It is a weird feeling because I can't blink turn my head or even move. I feel like I'm in the video. I think this is really good practice even for compound shooters although having a pin to put on the spot helps a lot in focusing. I really like the Primos videos for this. If you watch these videos you can learn a lot more than what they are trying to teach (sell) you. The new Truth 3 Bowhunting is a pretty good one.

Although Andy perfected "spot and spook" he has also spent weeks perched in a tree perfecting "sit and sleep" He'll be up in one of these spots and I'll be in the other. Unfortunately those bucks don't come in very often. Like twice in two weeks. Has anybody else noticed that elk LOVE to vandalize cameras? We must have 50 pictures of bulls faces and antlers at point blank. They won't leave the cameras alone. I'm thinking we just sit in a tree with a camera on it for bait.

I think you guys may be right that they are less likely to jump the string at longer range. I have heard the same thng from some other guys. I just don't shoot that far. Maybe I should start eh? I once missed a 50 yard shot at a nice couse buck because I planned on him jumping the string. He was looking at me so I knew he was wired. I aimed low and he just stood there as the arrow went under his chest. I've never taken another shot that far at a coues deer. I missed a mulie at that distance too (Andy kindly showed me how to do it by taking it with his longbow a few minutes later at 25 yards ) On that one I just blew the shot (over estimated the range) but that buck did just stand there too. Like I said I'm not perfect. Other than these two 50 yard shots I've never taken a shot over 40 at anything but every coues deer I have missed or hit at under 40 did jump the string to some degree although that is not the only reason I missed a couple of them. This is why I just mentally fall apart when I get a shot at a coues deer. I just don't know what to expect. Dave, Are you the same Dave who spends too much time on AZ Bowhunter Conference? Are you stalking me?

For most areas a fire is not too bad and often good. As long as the fire doesn't burn too hot. The chaparral and ponderosa pine country where most of us whitetail hunt is fire adapted and needs to burn every 10-20 years. The pondo forests need frequent ground fires to help thin the small trees and keep the brush down so fires can't get into the tree crowns. Fire suppression for the last 100 years has made some of these places too thick so that when a fire does happen it will burn too hot and/or get into the crowns. We still need them to burn sometime though. The erosion that follows these hot fires can be the worst thing. I like to see fires almost anywhere because the hunting usually does improve in a couple of years. The sonoran desert habitats are not fire adapted so once they burn they often revert to grasslands dominated by low quality exotic annual grasses. These grasses the promote even more frequent fires so the desert plants keep getting pushed back and the grasslands grow. Some models predict that most of the sonoran desert will eventually be converted to these much less diverse and much less productive grasslands in the next 50 years.

Bobbyo, I guess sometimes I'm just overprotective of hunting and so am really worried that something we do will come back to bite us. I've seen it happen several times in hunting and my first love rock climbing. Areas get closed, trapping gets banned, etc. I'm just not impressed by long shots in hunting situations because to me they often lead to something less than an optimal hit. So when I hear even a very good shooter talking about long shots I cringe because I know there are other guys who feel the need to impress their friends with their shooting but they really aren't that good. Now this is just my personal deal but I respect somebody more for passing a long or bad shot than for pulling one off. It is way harder NOT to fling than to fling. Ever watch the Primos Truth videos? They may sound like a bunch of Mississippi yahoos but they are very ethical hunters. I really respect those guys for passing up close range shots on elk that are quartering towards them. They make a big deal about it in their BS sessions. They know from experience that that is a bad shot on an elk. I respect that they take the time on every one of those elk vieos to stress that and hopefully educate a bunch of hunters and prevent some bad situations. I guess in a way that is what motivates me to make these long winded posts on subjects like this sometimes. You may notice I don't post much on CW.com but some things are worth it to me to spend time pecking away on this computer. Treestand man, You are right about getting close not meaning you are "better hunter" I should have said something like besides working on your shooting skills you should also consider improving your hunting skills. Better hunters can get closer than bad hunters but you are right close does not equal better. My bad. Even though I have thoroughly hijacked this kids post I was still thinking he was still the subject so I was kind of giving advice. Just because I killed a coues deer at 15 yards does not mean I am a better hunter than you or somebody else. My point is that if he improves his hunting skills he may not feel the need to shoot longer ranges. As for your point abaout the 60 yard shot...Actually the odds of his vitals not being there are fairly high if it is a coues deer. I have seen them jump the string several times on the fastest bows (250-300 fps) at much closer ranges. I'm not saying you or anaybody else should have the same limits as I do just that there are inherent limits to the weapon and the hunting situation that make longer shots lower odds. I would just hate to blow it on a live animal. Everybody has their own mind to make up. BTW My shooting is gettng back up to par, I was shooting my Mathews LX today at my 3D deer and getting 8 and 10 ring shots every time. So don't think I'm a total trad purist. I still think I'll hunt elk with the longbow though. It isn't that hard to get under 30 if they are rutting good. I hope... Colorado Archer, You are definitely a better shooter than most if you can consistently shoot to kill at 100 yards in a hunting situation. 99.99% of people aren't physically talented enough and don't practice enough to shoot like that. Your comment about you will decide on your limitations is true. We each need to know our limitations and do our best to stick with them. Unfortunately some guys don't have much respect for the animals they pursue and the future of the sport of bowhunting. It is all about themselves and making a kill and if they wound and lose an animal, "so what". They will shoot at another. I have met these guys too many times. I was a full time hunting guide for 7 years and have seen all kinds. So, for all the guys not as talented as you trying to shoot antelope at 100 yards there are wounded bucks walking around. Pretty soon you won't be deciding your limitations because bowhunting will be banned and there will be nobody to blame but ourselves. Coueshunter 84, I'm no different than you or lots of other guys. You put a lot into the stalk and just can't get any closer. It is the last day. "Oh, I better take this shot it is my last chance." I've been there before. The point is the longer the range the lower the odds of a clean kill and the higher the chance of wounding an animal. There is no argument about that. It is just physics. A small error at 20 yards, say 2" off is 10" off at 100 yards. If you had made a bad shot at those deer and wounded them it would have been tragic. I know it would have been for me anyhow. You are obviously a very good and ethical archer and really think things through and I'm not bagging on you one bit for those shots. Like I said I'm not perfect and I can make bad shots too and at closer ranges. I just think we all need to be realistic about our personal limits and respect the animals and the sport enough not to push them too far. You know all this preaching I'm doing here is going to jinx me for hunting this season. I better stop.

Shortpants, I hear what you are saying but I'm not suggesting that everybody have the same limitations. Heck, I don't have the same limitations from season to season or animal to animal. Conditions can dictate a lot of that too. The point is that there are natural and mechanical reasons why bowhunting is a close range form of hunting. When you choose the bow and arrow as your weapon you are choosing to limit your range from the very beginning. Then to go to the exteremes that some do to extend that range as much as possible seems counterintuitive. In other words if somebody wants to be able to shoot an animal at longer distances why would they choose to bowhunt in the first place? It is sort of like a racewalker trying to win a 100yard sprint. Why choose a sport where you are limiting yourself to go slower than you can then try to race people who are running. Just run! I must disagree with you on one point. In baseball if you are not in the major leagues you really are NOT as good as somebody who is. Unfortunately in bowhunting it is easy to kid yourself into thinking you are in the major leagues. In baseball when you step up to the plate against the Big Unit you find out pretty quickly if you are kidding yourself. Bowhunting coues deer for almost 15 years has taught me that I'm a double A bowhunter at best. The rest of this post is just a bunch of philosophical rambling on my part and I apologize in advance if you choose to read it. Bowhunting has given me some of the best times of my life and I like to think that other people might get as much from it as I have so I try to share my experience just in case anybody cares. Also, I just can't sleep and enjoy blabbing about stuff like this so here goes... I admit to being of the mentality that I must improve myself first to meet the challenge of the particular sport or situation. Really what I get out of bowhunting is the challenge of figuring out how to be successful in a particular hunt and the reward of seeing a plan come together. I practice shooting to improve my accuracy and range just like everybody else. It just seems that for many hunters the other part of the solution is not given much respect. I just happen to think that is the most rewarding part. That is becoming a better hunter too. Being a better hunter means being able to get closer (among other things). Bowhunting is really two words. The bow and the hunting. I realize that this is just my opinion but I think it is also a worthy topic of discussion in relation to the questions of a young bowhunter. I know the majority of bowhunters are very good hunters and share similar values of the sport. I've guided lots of bowhunters and really enjoyed them all. At risk of offending some of the rifle hunters I can say that in general serious bowhuters are more dedicated and better hunters than most rifle hunters. Certainly the best hunters I've ever met are bowhunters. Look up Mike Ukrainetz on google for one example. He's a phenomenal guide and I've seen him do things bowhunting that still amaze me. Most of the huge bucks he guides his clients to are taken at ranges less than 40 yards and many at less than 20! Take my word for it. If you can consistantly get some treestand hunting gumby from Michigan to stalk within 20 yards of mature mulie and actually have them kill the deer you are one heck of a hunter and guide. He personally doesn't hunt with a gun and doesn't shoot more than about 40-50 yards with his bow. His hunting ability and intuition of animal nature is unmatched. He's a hoot to have in camp too. Eh? Unfortunately the archery industry depends upon us constantly feeling inadequate because we didn't kill a whatever or a "trophy" whatever so, we will buy their latest gadget or faster bow. It seems so one dimensional like if you want to kill a deer or a big deer you have to have this and that and shoot the eye of a nat at 100 yards. The other dimension is this hunting part. You might get the impression it is all about shooting and nobody says (because it is hard to sell) what you really need to do is become a better hunter not just a better shooter. Almost nobody says the obvious. Bow hunting is hard, you have to get close, and you aren't going to kill one every year. It is really easy to lose sight of what bowhunting has been about for generations. You should see the piles of game Pope and Young used to shoot with hand made wooden bows and arrows. Now we have competitive 3D shoots for big money and all the big money hunting hype, magazines, record books, and it is no wonder we feel compelled to push the limits of shooting. Sometimes I think we all just need to step back and look at ourselves and our sport with a different perspective. Get a stickbow and walk around in the woods for a day killing pine cones and you will start to mellow out. It is just fun. I don't know if anybody even cares to read all this but to me bowhunting is bigger and more important than any of us as individuals so I sometimes feel it is important to add my $.02 worth of perspective. There is so much more to it than shooting and killing a big whatever. Of course I still plan to try to kill a huge elk this year...

Bobbyo, I would slam you for both the long shots. Sure people have and will kill animals with a bow at long ranges (50 or 60+ in my book) but you are really increasing the odds of a bad hit for any number of reasons. Shooting a bow in a hunting situation is difficult enough at close range. We have enough problems with anti hunters that we don't need lots of guys flinging desperately hoping that the shot was perfect and the wind isn't blowing and the animal won't jump the string, or take a step, or whatever. If you enjoy shooting long range with a gun or bow do it at a target not an animal. I have much more respect for somebody who kills animals cleanly at close range than one who "JFK's" them at long range. I guess that is because to me this sport is about hunting not killing. I'm not saying I'm perfect in this department. I've done a few dumb things myself over the years. It just seems that there is a population of guys out there that seem to think the object of hunting is to impress other people by making "kills." I don't think there are many of those guys on this site. Here are a few honest questions for you long shooters. Why choose to hunt with a bow if you are not interested in the challenge of getting close? Why not just hunt with a rifle or even a muzzleloader and be sure you kill that animal at 100 yards? Why shoot an animal with a rifle at 500 yards when you know you are lobbing the shot in? Why not get closer and be sure you kill it? I honestly don't unerstand?

BASS, Good idea but for the full effect you also need to screw up the mind. Maybe get some hot chick to..... never mind.

The Payson area has lots of deer (for AZ) but it can be pretty thick forest too. This is my method for scouting a new area. I have been successful withh this as have several of my friends. Josh, Little Bear, Jeffy, Nate, Dave. Spend several days just looking for tracks in the mud along the roads and at waterholes. Don't even look for deer, just tracks, but spend a lot of time and cover a lot of ground. One year I scouted 60 different water holes during the summer. Finally narrowed it down to two. Killed a buck opening day. Go back to the spots where you saw the most sign and learn the area. Look for deer trails and try to figure out why they are where they are. Going to water, beds, food, following contours? Figure out (guess) how to hunt it. Treestand on water, spot and stalk, still hunt, blind, etc? The way it is raining now sitting water is not top on the list. Think positive. Hunt all day. If you stay at it in about 5-10 years you will get one. On average each year only one out of 20 AZ hunters kills a deer. Except Little Bear. He seems to get one every year. Did I mention that he shoots a crooked and cracked longbow. Becoming a good hunter really helps. You are lucky because you are starting young and have access to sites like this. Little Bear did a pretty good job of perfecting "spot and spook" on his own for years before he got his first deer at about age 20.