muleskinner

Yeah, it was an embarrasing loss...unlike losing to a quality opponent...to be brutally honest, Arizona ain't looking good at all right now. Turner is suspended and they were already pretty thin. Next year should be much better, hopefully. I would'nt want to try and coach a bunch of 19 year old prima donnas that have been convinced that they are special since grade school. Just razzing u ASU guys a little. Helps take ur mind off the really important stuff. On a scale of 1-10, sports is about a 1.5! Go Cats!

Arizona men's basketball team did play a womens team...oh, sorry, that was ASU...hard to tell nowdays!

Sent you a pm also. thanks

That is an awesome trophy. Tracking collars are revealing a lot about lion behavior that was not known before. Even big game biologists are admiting that they are having to revise some of their thinking. When it comes to lions, deer hunters seem to favor ignorance and superstition over science and technology. I'm glad no one on this forum falls into that category.

Jack...good job, called in the dogs....shot a cat that was actually bigger than the dogs chasing it! Mature adult...regret that it was a female, but at least it did'nt have spots...things are lookin up by george!

Just wanted to respond to azhuntnut's suggestion that I might be an animal activist because of some of my posts regarding mountain lions. For info sake, I am currently feeding 8 hounds and 2 mules that I use for bear and lion hunting. We treed a nice 300# bear for my grandson this fall. So no, I'm not an animal activist. I drew a deer tag this year and never hunted one day due to work load. My dogs are fat and lazy right now because I have'nt had time to go chase a lion yet this year. I am simply responding to an attitude among a lot of deer hunters, some of whom post on this forum reularly, that deer or elk are the only valid big game animal on the planet. And because I hunt deer, anything other than a man with weapon that happens to kill a deer, should be eliminated. That means that I am justified in killing a female lion barely out of spots and boasting about the awesome trophy. Yes, I have an agenda! I would like to think that there will always be a viable lion population for my kids and grandkids to enjoy. Some of the juvenile statements made about killing all these lions that are single handedly wiping out the deer herds, exposes some narrow minded perspectives. Why do some deer hunters staunchly support intelligent management of one game animal, and then publicly advocate the total slaughter of another? Not just a little inconsistent and hypocritical. Apparently there is a sentiment that says, "the particular game animal I choose to pursue is inherently more valuable than any other game animal, simply because it's the one I prefer". I have no problem with those who hunt deer, elk, sheep, etc. I happen to enjoy hunting lions with hounds. Just because the lion I pursue ate a few of your deer, please refrain from lobbying for the elimination of the species. By the way, I posted congrats to the guy who just killed an awesome lion behind some hounds. A true trophy harvested in a responsible and respectful manner. I think that is how it should be done. All this talk about deer makes me hungry for some backstrap for breakfast. Anyway, azhuntnut, don't take life too serious. It's gonna work out ok.

gearsnagger...probably won't sell the dogs and mules, and I'm not fat, and I don't live in Colorado. I will keep my day job since I own the company. Anyway, this discussion has been downright invigorating, however, I have about worn it out. Onward and upward.

elpepe25...don't recall advocating the removal of the wolf....due to some natural tendencies, it needs a lot of management and control. Lots of differences between wolves and lions and their predatory habits. I don't think you'll find too many 8-12 member lion packs. I have'nt heard of a pack of lions coming down on a bunch of hounds that were treeing, and killing 3-5 hounds. This has become all to common in states such as Idaho, Montana, and some of the north eastern states. Lions are also legal game animals. Don't think you can legally hunt wolves in most of the lower 48 states. Just a few of the differences in the 2 animals that requires different management approaches. I have also read several reports that state that wolves are having drastic impact on elk herds in Idaho and Montana. Nobody is saying that about lions. Here in N.M. lions seem to leave cattle pretty much alone in favor of deer. I hunt on one ranch that has a healthy lion population, and in the last 5-6 years they have'nt reported any livestock losses due to lions. May not be typical, I don't know. So, I don't think it is inconsistent to expect different management policies for the 2 species. Speaking of livestock losses, I think we might have just about ridden this horse to death. I've enjoyed the back and forth and I realize this is primarily a deer hunting forum and I am clearly in the minority. Makes me feel sorta special. You all have wonderful hunting season and I will cease and desist from any more comment on this one.

A good spirited debate is probably good for about any issue. I guess we have succeeded in that. I certainly applaud every ones willingness to state their opinion. You most likely won't alter your opinion and I probably won't alter mine. No problem there. I lived in Arizona for 17 years and actually got my start running hounds while living in Tucson. Hunted birds with shorthairs, javelina, deer and elk. I still hunt birds in Az every time I can. I am a tad familiar with the scene there. We have many of the same attitudes in N. M. concerning lions. Most ranchers here think the only good lion is a dead lion. I fully understand their position. I guess the point I was trying to make is this: I don't understand why so many deer hunters have only one perspective on lions, and that is eliminate them because they happen to compete for the animal I am after. I own a business here and I don't consider myself a professional lion hunter. It's simply a thing I do for fun. Mostly from the enjoyment of seeing dogs work. So, I probably won't be quitting my day job any time soon. Unless someone would like to buy a fairly succesful hvac business in the middle of some beautiful country! Oh well, peace and prosperity be granted unto all of you. Long live el gato!

Great trophy...job well done. Emphasizes the value of treeing a lion with dogs. Lets a hunter be selective in harvesting a true trophy. That's one you will be proud to display in the trophy room. Lets hear it for doing it with hounds!

Apparently lions prefer bucks...gender selective predation...we all know that any time there is a scarcity of deer spotted, gotta be a lion lurking in the shadows!

I happen to agree with Lark...I believe it is about control...elitist, arrogant, individuals of superior intellect, who think someone made them just a little better than the people who pay all the bills. I have no problem with education: I am an educated man myself! In fact I quit school in the 3rd grade cause it was getting in the way of my education! The american bison(otherwise known as buffalo) is a good example of common sense management. How many of them do you see outside of game management facilities or game ranches? They just do not fit in the scheme of things like they used to. I don't know of any wild, native herds of buffalo wandereing around on public lands. Maybe in Alaska...I'm not sure. Correct me if I'm wrong. Buffalo don't seem to have any respect for boundaries, fences, or anything else that gets in their way. So....we keep them in controlled areas for the most part. Wolves fit this same category. They are going to wander outside of any boundary...they are going to prey on domestic animals...they only belong in controlled environments. Maybe you wolf lovers can enlist the help of Ted Turner or his red blooded american ex-wife, Jane Fonda, to provide your cuddly, little wolf with a ranch all it's own. It can wander to it's hearts content, wreaking mayhem and havoc on all other wildlife within it's boundary. Amazes me, that those who are the most ardent proponents of wolves, will likely never have to deal with them in a real life setting. Thats left up to ranchers, sportsmen, houndsmen, and so forth. Oh well...so much for the wanderings of demented minds.

OUT2HUNT...any pictures of jack rabbits, ground squirrels, or prairee dogs you have mounted? Seems like they would have a special category in the record books for a real man like you. By the way, lions are now the biggest cause of illegal immigration, inflation, and the high cost of health care.

All of this attention that is being paid to endangered species is a whole lot disturbing to me. The fact that it is taking priority over human beings is very disturbing. When our society feels justified in destroying a families heritage and way of life, as in the case of some of our ranching families, we have a major problem. What makes any one species in the animal kingdom sacred. It has been the pattern since creation, that some last and some don't. There are no guarantees. Why do we feel obligated to insure every species existence? Is it the same mindset that wants to gaurantee everyone a paycheck whether they work or not? And what tangible difference does a bug, minnow, or bird make in the quality of anyones life? There are plenty of insects, minnows, and birds, for anyone to spend the rest of their lives looking at them. I am afraid we have a group of elitests that have come, and are coming out of our institutions of higher learning, that feel like the only ones qualified to make the rules are those with degrees behind their names. Frankly, that is a pile of crap! The best degree in life is common sense. Without it you are simply an educated idiot. I don't know if there is a conspiracy behind the environmentalists, tree-huggers, peta, and all those folks or not. It really does'nt matter. If they have their way, we will all be controlled by what some elite group thinks is best for some animal or insect. God made the animal world for man...not the other way around. Man has a responsibility to use common sense and compassion in his dealing with God's creation. When we place an animal in a higher priority than a human being, we have become perverted in our thinking. Lets try to use clarity of thought without the intrusion of emotionalism and foolish sentimentality when we make decisions in thses areas. God's creation is not as fragile as some would like to believe. Assumimg of course, that you don't consider yourself to be God.

Hey, Lark...keep up the good work. Life is to short not to have some fun. I lived in Tucson for 17 years...been a Wildcat fan for a long time. Thank God fo U of A basketball. The last few years it's been the only real bright spot. Used to be power house baseball teams, and for a little while had some success in football. Looks like you better crow while you can. If Rodriquez can read the compliance manual at least once a week, we might be on the rise in football. I give Sean Miller 3 years and he will be competing for a national championship. Anyway, Phoenix was always hotter in the summer, busier streets, no streets that go east, west , north, and south. All seem to go off on some crazy angle. The good news is this; if you are bad, when you die, instead of going to heck you just go back to Phoenix.

Wow, sounds like someone is wound alittle to tight! Geez .

Anyone been hunting quail north of Tucson? Might be coming over after the first of the year. Used to hunt north of Oracle Junction when I lived in Tucson. Some years it was awesome, other years not so good. Don't need to know about anyones honey hole, just a general idea of bird numbers in that area.

I made a comment after the media circus surrounding the treeing of the jag by a Benson guide, that it would probably tur n to the bad for those that enjoy access to that area. There are too many people in the environmental areas, as well as Forest service, conservation, and so on, that operate on emotion and sentiment, rather than common sense. They will end up making a poster child out of the jag and use it to further their agenda, which I believe has very little to do with the future of the animal. Control of public lands and the eventual destruction of hunting activities is what they are about. I'm not a conspiracy advocate, but these people are dangerous to the pursuit of liberty. I hope the next guy that spots a jag in Az. or N.M. will keep his mouth shut about it. Take pictures to share with trusted friends and let someone else work in behalf of the tree huggers and anti's.

Congratulations on a once in lifetime shot. I had a friend in Texas who pulled up to dirt tank one morning and spooked a flock of turkeys. They ran over to a fence line and proceeded down the fence in single file. He fired at the last one in line and ended up clipping 3 of them thru the neck or head. I guess you could use center fire weapons on turkeys there. Anyway, your shot was pretty remarkable. I am pleased to see that you considered gender and age this time. Apparently my comments made a difference. What more can you ask from life, than to know you made a differnce? Onward and upward.

azhuntnut...I do owe you an apology for hijacking your thread...did'nt even realize how it came across until too late. I should have introduced this as another thread to be discussed. I'll try to be a little more considerate in the future. I did'nt intend for this to take on a personal nature, but I'm afrais it has. Again, I apologize.

CaptainObvious....hope you did'nt choke on your own puke...I personally have never killed a female cat...one of my hunting buddies treed a female that had been killing goats...a game warden was along on the hunt due to the depredation nature of the deal...my buddie tried to talk him into tranqulizing the lion and relocating her...no deal, the game warden insisted on killing the lion...that is what I meant by "if it can be avoided". Everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinion on this subject. I respect that right. I have expressed mine and I feel that it is equally as valid as yours or anyone else. We are blessed to live in a society where we have the privilege of stating our opinion. I try to wear my big boy pants when I comment on this forum. So far i've never had to go home crying about anything that was said. Just telling you how I feel about it. Feel free to fill the walls with any cat big enough to chew its own food. That's your right. It's my right to disagree with it. I don't hunt lions in Arizona, so your not hurting my lion population. Peace be unto all who venture forth to slay El Gato.

That is the same test that New Mexico is using. I believe Colorado was using it for a while before New Mexico instituted it.

David, I'm not faulting your effort to find the wounded cat. Sounds like you made an honest effort to do the right thing. I'm sure the vast majority of deer hunters would have done exactly what you did if given the opportunity. My problem is with the decision making process that led to the wounding of the first cat, and the eventual killing of a kitten. At 400 yards it's obviously impossible to determine anything about a lion, other than the fact that it is a cat. My state has begun requiring lion hunters to pass a gender identification test before they hunt lions. The only way to do that in the wild is to use dogs to pursue and tree the cat. Otherwise how do you know you're not killing a female with dependent kittens? Judging from some of the sentiments expressed, such as,"another deer eater down", " glad you killed it before it could eat too many deer," some could care less about respecting an awesome big game animal such as a lion. I have a big problem with opinions based on ignorance when it comes to lions. The myths about how many deer they kill has been debunked on this site previously, yet the perception still hangs on that lions are the scourge of deer populations. I guess now we can start saying things like, "another javelina killer down." I would like to suggest that you get your friend with dogs to trail and tree a cat for your son so that you can make an accurate assesment of the quality of the trophy before he pulls the trigger. A mature tom with a good head on him is much better trophy than a kitten just barely out of spots. As far as my tracking skills go, I would'nt put them up against anyone else. I'm not sure I could track myself out of the woods if i had to. Thank God for gps. Me and the guys I hunt with don't kill females if it can be avoided. That just our preference. I would like to think we will have a viable lion population for my grandkids to enjoy. I truly hope your son can harvest a trophy cat. It's an experience of a lifetime. Please accept my comments in the spirit they are offered and I wish you the best on your hunt.

Lets see here....1 animal shot and never recovered, 1 10 month old female kitten killed. Because they eat deer that is a good hunting experience for a 13 year old kid. Must be desperate for quality hunting in good ole az. By the way, I hunt cats myself, so I'm not anti in any way. Something about this one don't set right.

Could be a female from the look of the track. I hunt deer, elk, upland game, and bear and lion with hounds. I kinda wonder why the lion has to go because it might threaten your deer honey hole. Seems like it might have a right to the place as well as you do. I'm not trying to come across in the wrong way here...just wonder how long folks like me will have the privelege of seeing lions in the wild...by the way I have never killed one...just photos and I don't have a problem with those who do kill one, but the mentality that says I'm a deer hunter so the lion has to go kinda bothers me. Hope I don't offend here...that was'nt my intent. Just setting up late thinkin too much I reckon.