Good

Great and capable cartridge for sure! I'd like to get my wife one. She currently shoots a Savage 110 7 Rem Mag with a few bolt-ons, and she loves it, but I think she would like a CM even better.

Anyone have the typical measurements found here? I know the work has been done but searching for measurements proved useless and maybe we can consolidate the info here. Thanks for the help!

Someone's going to have my ugly mug on their trail cam haha. I was quail hunting/whitetail scouting for the upcoming hunt in 31 and came up on a trail cam so I said cheese and smiled.

Hello all, got a quick couple questions for you. Wanted to put in for elk the same units as my uncle this year as who knows how long we'll be able to hunt together. He usually hunts cow in 3a-3c. So I put that as first pick and got it in October. Unfortunately, my uncle got 2nd pick unit 27 so we will not be hunting together anyway, unless one of us tags out early, then we'll crash each other's party. Anyway, can anyone recommend a good place to set up camp? I've never hunted this 3c unit before, but we tent camp so if you have experience with the area and would like to help a fellow hunter out, I'm all ears! It's pretty far from home base so we'll probably scout in September (just for the bugling ). I'm really excited for the hunt, it's been a while and it's been even longer since filling the freezer. Thanks in advance for your compassion. Tim. Micah 6:8

Had a fantastic hunt! It was tough though. Although there were a few, not many cows were taken while we were there. We had a shot early in the hunt but had some scope difficulties and couldn't close the deal. After those shenanigans, we hunted hard putting in mile after mile hiking all over the mountain. Although we didn't see many cows, there are definitely elk in the "green" areas and timber and our bull count was up to 17 with one monster we named the "Wrangler". He definitely had good jeans. It was warm and it seemed that the elk were mainly up in the higher areas off the 300 towards the West, but you never know. We also had the pleasure of seeing many deer on the hunt with one group of around 18. The dominant doe in that group was chewing on little bones. Wierd. All told, we saw more does than bucks, but we definitely saw a few nice bucks including a real nice 4x4 standing broadside just looking at us from ~100yds one day. Finally, on Wednesday, the day before last day we were able to shoot a nice cow that was 284lbs hanging on the scale at Malapai Packing in Taylor- we worked the math backwards and estimate 530-540lbs on the hoof. Thanks for everyone's help. Not the greatest shot, but:

Great bull!

Thanks man. I'm really excited to get out and scout. I would like to stay away from the yahoos so thanks for the heads up on that. Hopefully we can scout up a good place to camp from all the recommended areas and we'll have a successful hunt. Seeing all the downed trees though, I'm not so sure, but just getting out in the hills with the fam trying to find some elk for a week will be awesome so a successful hunt or not, I'm way excited! Getting some work done on the rifle- ordered a new laminate stock and a brake for it, getting ready for load development. Need to find a gunsmith to screw the brake on for me.

That is an excellent resource! Thanks!

Thanks guys. I really look forward to getting out this year. Work has prevented me the last several years. Last year I drew a whitetail tag and only got out for 1 day. Couldn't put horns on anything! As far as area, I was eyeballing the area straight south of the Overgaard area on Google Earth. Looks like a lot of it burned though, and it appears there are a lot of downed trees. I'm wondering if there were any good camping sites in the mountains down that way for a tent or two. Something else, is the Mogollon Rim Rd the Southern border of the unit? It appears that way and I don't have a map for the area yet to more accurately determine it.

I am tellin ya, just move up here. Buy a license for 25 bucks and the tag is free!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have 5 legal rams picked out this year already. 2 of them are ready to keel over from old age at any time. Charlie has 7 picked out. Its gonna be a good year for sheep. I will be gunnin for my 7th ram and 5th mount. I know that is more than my fair share but it is one of the few things that keep me putting up with these aweful winters and in most cases aweful summers as well. This summer so far though has been a dream come true. Lots of sun and warmth without the freakin smoke. BTW, as far as AZDBHS is concerned, enough points I do not have but the ones I do have are better than nothing at all. Do they have any railroads up there!!?? My sis has a friend who just moved up there and has an open invite to go hunting with a place to stay. M U S T R E S E A R C H ! ! !

Oh YEAH! hunt 1093 draw!

A buddy has the Swaros and they're nice, but not for the price difference between them and the Kaibabs. I do think a 15 power is in order. I think a 20 power would be nice, without doing math, maybe like a 20x65. I wonder why Zeiss stopped making the 20X60 they used to offer.

This is exciting!

I have a paintball tournament in Phoenix on Saturday or I'd definitely be there! Bummer...

Not Drawn. They have my bonus points messed up. I wasn't drawn last year either, but it still says 1 bonus point...

I will look into the rio salado shoots. I think these competitions will help in the long range game. And, that's interesting about the triggers. I'm getting ready to install one on the Savage. Probably the Sharp Shooter's Supply Competition trigger. 12oz to 2lbs.

I have a friend with a factory Sendero in 300 RUM that shoots lights out no doubt about it. Most will say that when threading on a custom barrel you should true the action. Why wouldn't you? It might shoot even better unless you're already shooting .250" or better... Best I've got out of the 22 1/2" sporter barreled factory Rem 700 '06 I currently shoot is .33 MOA. I'd like to get it all trued up when I get a barrel installed. Savages don't necessarily "need" the action truing due to the floating bolt head. It is still a good idea though. I need to get to Ben Avery. I've never shot there. Maybe one day we can meet up there. We should do a coueswhitetail shoot one of these days as a lot of guys are around the area. One of the areas that the Remmys are better is in the 338 Lapua arena. The Savage weighs 15+lbs without scope! But, the Remington Model 700P police edition is a perfect cost effective entry into the 338 Lapua cartridge. I plan to buy one if the wife ever loosens her death grip on the finances! (I definitely won't be bringing any money for you to take at Ben Avery!!!)

Congrats man! I was 32 when I got married to my first wife (she's still my wife, btw.) I decided I would not get married outside my faith and just waited. I couldn't be happier that the Good Lord brought her around. Congrats, and try to be a little flexible in those "old ways". She's worth it.

fixed

1 and 3- No offence Remmy guys, but Savages are superior in this day and age. Floating bolt head for accuracy and the ability to work on it yourself completely means spend that money on other things than a smith to work on it. Savages flat out shoot in comparison to companies that have not evolved with the times. Any and all Remington factory triggers are junk in comparison to the Accutrigger. To get a good trigger on a Remington it must be replaced. And, replacing a Remington trigger with a Timney is $130, whereas the Savage 110 Timney is $90. The one I'd pick is the competition trigger from Sharp Shooter Supply (SSS) for $97. (12 oz to 2 lbs pull. I recently picked up a 110 7mm Rem Mag without Accutrigger for $200 and plan to install this trigger when the current build is done.) If you get one with the accutrigger- keep it. It whoops anything Remington has stock and even the "heavy" version found in the 116 and 111 are still user adjustable down to 2.5lbs or so- way good enough for a hunting rifle. When and if the barrel goes south, if you like to shoot eventually it will, like tires on a car, swap it out. You may need to instll a different bolt face for the new cartridge- but that's a 10 min job on a Savage and you can go back and forth between faces once you buy them at like $40 apiece. No go on a Remington. On a Remington you either need a smith to machine out the bolt face to magnum if you go from standard 308 bolt face of ~.470 to a magnum bolt face of ~.540 and there's no going back. Also, a different extractor will probably need to be installed at that time of the Sako or M16 style. To go back to a smaller bolt face you need a whole new bolt which is in the $300 range unless you buy one used, but then it still needs to be timed to your action by a smith. If you can find a 112 long action(difference between long action and short action is 3 digits vs. 2 digits. Long action is 112 where as the short action version of the same model is just 12) it has the medium Accutrigger for varminting- 1.5-6 lbs adjustability. My brother just bought a 112 BVSS in 300 Win Mag new for $680 shipped. Stainless, heavy barrel, mid Accutrigger, nice pretty stock, everything. He's going to buy a 7 Rem Mag barrel and "switch barrel" the gun depending on what he's hunting. 2- caliber- IMHO- Deer- one of the 7mm mags shooting 180g Bergers (or 168s depending on caliber chosen). Elk- .338. The ballistics of the 7 mags and the 338s are better than even the best 30 calibers. If you want long range on elk, the 338 or bigger is the only option, again IMHO, and probably will be your HO too when you compare ballistics. IMHO, the elk deserve at least that much. 4- The BDC turrets are a good idea for once you have a load worked up. They are simple and quick. I am just going to shoot standard MOA or Mil systems though, personally. I think my next optics purchase will be a Leica CRF 1600 LRF, then a Vortex Viper PST FFP 6-24x scope. The Vortex warranty is second to none. All that is logical to my mind. All that said, I'm currently trying to save up to build a Remington 700 into a lightweight carry gun in 338 RUM that will lob 300g Berger bullets at Coues Whitetail as far as I can see 'em. I'm installing the recoil pad on this gun tonight (my first, hope it turns out well). Then I'll work on the Savage build after I've paid a smith to do the Remy. Again, no offence to Remington guys, I just feel the Savage is superior to just about everything right now. Remingtons can and will shoot great, but most need some smith work to shoot well, of course with exceptions. Savages just flat out shoot, especially with handloads.

I don't always explain things well. I'm glad you're around to make it clear! I have long wanted to try the GS Custom bullets, but at $2 a bullet, they are out of my price range... You're right though, the low weight for velocity, pushed by R17 which seems to be the perfect powder for the 308 Win case capacity (so far anyway), plus the relatively high BC is a recipe for a serious look. They used to advertise their BC in the 7s but have recently made revisions. One thing, they say these 177s won't stabilize with slower than 1:10" twist. Please keep us updated as to your findings. I could very well develop a hunting load with these and use "shelf" bullets just for general practice and range shooting. I will keep you posted on the 177's. I should have my new barrel in a week or two. It is a 10x barrel. I plan on using the 178 AMAX and 208 AMAX's for general shooting to save coin like you are talking about. I will still use the 208's as a sheep/deer/antelope load. They drift about the same (just a hair less) and hit quite a bit harder as well as open at lower velocities. I would like to use the 177's for black bears, elk and moose at medium ranges when I dont feel like lugging the Edge around. Even though it is only a pound and 1/2 heavier, I notice that extra 1.5# on long pack trips. Plus it is a bit bulkier with the longer barrel and much larger scope. The 308 is much more user friendly on the long back pack trips. [hijack]I hear ya on the weight thing. In planning a low-weight shooter I recently picked up a low mileage take off barrel in 338RUM from an XCR that I plan to get installed soon. I'll keep this one as light as possible (7-9lbs) for packing in the rough canyons and yet still take advantage of the BC and hard hitting scenarios listed above for medium range out to 700yds or so (hopefully she'll hold sub MOA out to 700, we'll see. Any more than that and I'll start over with it). The trick there is getting a good brake installed and making sure everyone's got hearing protection on in the heat of the moment. But since most of my hunting is by myself since my dad passed it's not a problem. [/hijack]

I don't always explain things well. I'm glad you're around to make it clear! I have long wanted to try the GS Custom bullets, but at $2 a bullet, they are out of my price range... You're right though, the low weight for velocity, pushed by R17 which seems to be the perfect powder for the 308 Win case capacity (so far anyway), plus the relatively high BC is a recipe for a serious look. They used to advertise their BC in the 7s but have recently made revisions. One thing, they say these 177s won't stabilize with slower than 1:10" twist. Please keep us updated as to your findings. I could very well develop a hunting load with these and use "shelf" bullets just for general practice and range shooting.

Oh yeah, and all those numbers were ran for sea level with standard atmosphere and pressure for that elevation. If we then assume that's what Federal did when posting the numbers for the OP's ammo, the BC of the 165g bullet runs around .455. I think this is close as their drop is 36.5" at 500 and JBM says 36.4" with 200yd zero. For comparison, his round has 45.3" drift, all else being the same, at 750yds. The high BC 338 bullet has almost half the wind drift at that range... Extended distances is where the high BC bullets shine.

All these wiz-bang tools that are available to the hunter today are there for use to help minimize the effects of nature on the bullet helping us to make better and more ethical shots. With the ballistic calculator, laser rangefinder, Kestrel or other weatherstation, and just good sense we can make much better shots than ever before. I have tremendously enjoyed the math lesson by Michael, and hearing about how others "do it". The one thing that has not really come up as much as I thought it would is the BC of the bullet. The way I see it, if you use a program, and enter all the info into it, it will give you exact drops. The trick is guessing the wind, even when using a Kestrel or similar unit. The ballistic coefficiency of the bullet can help minimize the errors we make judging wind. I use JBM Ballistics Trajectory calculator when at the computer, and it works well if I have phone service on the Blackberry also. Here are a couple thoughts on the BC of modern bullets. Using the OP ammunition of the 165 fusion, the company's website claims 18.1" drift at 500yds fired from a muzzle velocity of 3100fps for this cartridge found here: http://www.fusionammo.com/ballistics/rifle.aspx?id=664 Compare that to shooting a simple 308 Win with 208g Hornady at 2600fps and the same wind speed nets 15.6" windage, according to the JBM program. The less drift equals more forgiving when errors are made in judging the wind. The higher bc bullet is affected less by the wind than the low bc bullet. Unfortunately I only have trigger pulling experience with the 300wsm and not chrono data, but the drift would be even less from that or even the Lazz Warbird when shooting the heavies than the slow 308 Win due to higher velocity. Real world experience: I recently picked up a $199 Savage 7mm Rem Mag combo that has a cheap simmons scope on it. The weather forecast was favorable so I planned to go to the range and test it out with some factory ammo- the cheap Winchester $17/box stuff. A friend spotted for me as I shot 12 or so of these rounds over my Chrony and got an ES of 140fps! Horrible, but I just wanted the brass anyway. Well, after getting close to a 100yd zero, I moved out to the 500yd gong. JBM on the Blackberry said 42" drop and I think the gong is 24". I dialed back the power on the scope until I could fit approximately 2 gongs height wise between the reticle's post and crosshair (wouldn't be necessary with a FFP...). I let her rip and shot just an inch or two high and left of center- slight left to right wind at 90*, but estimated it faster than what it was. Then stepped out to 750yds. I figured then that bottom post to top post is about 8 feet and JBM said 120"+/- which is around 10 feet. I added two feet to the post and squeezed off a round. Gut shot... the elevation was perfect, but the wind had picked up just enough to throw the bullet just to the right of the 18" target. There isn't any streamers at the local range to judge wind and my target was at 100, and I didn't think to look at my streamers way back at 100yds when I was focused way downrange (my bad). I only had one bullet left and I hit the steel after making a quick adjustment in wind hold. Would I shoot that round at 750yds? Not a chance. It is not consistent enough for that, but also, the earlier 308 shooting 208g AMAX has a wind drift of 37.7" with 10mph crosswind. That 7mm bullet had 41" +/- at that range using an estimated BC after searching the Intranetz. 2.5-3" isn't that much, but if it's the difference between wounding an animal and placing that bullet in the boiler room of that animal I want the bullet that is going to minimize my mistakes the most. Just for fun, proper handloads with a high bc bullet in 7mm Rem Mag is even better... 2900fps 180g Berger drift at 750 yds- 30.6" Give myself a bunch of practice and I'd shoot this if the conditions were right. The higher the bc of the bullet, the better the chances are your shot will be on target in any given condition. In case you're wondering, 300g Berger in .338 caliber 2700fps (although Michael E is destroying this number with his Edge I would figure) 26.4" drift. All speeds are just for reference, and are realistically achieveable.

Couple of Metates I found pig hunting in southern California last Thanksgiving.