donniedent

I'm going to add this. Game and Fish has to remove 30% of the coyote population thru aerial gunning in 5bn during the antelope fawning to have any real impact. Last I heard that was around 150 coyotes. I'm betting they would have to do the same anywhere else to help the mule deer fawns. Audsley, please tell me how else we can remove 150 yotes during fawning. 10-80? 150 predator hunters with a week or two to kill? I'm sorry if I seem a little fired up at you and believe it or not, I hear what you are saying. A wise approach must be taken. I would probably be a lot less fired up had you not made the "demagogues" comment. Here's the thing about anti's and this is a fact. They hate everything about us to our core. They have ZERO desire or intention to work with us. They ARE NOT REASONABLE PEOPLE and they never will be. You have to fight fire with fire. We need to make the same drastic steps they do and hope for something in the middle. If we take a reasonable approach they will hammer us even harder. Utah figured this out. Its like walking into a car dealer and starting off with your final offer. Trying to be reasonable will get us nothing, absolutely nothing!

Audsley, Interesting post. I wholeheartedly disagree with most of what you said but interesting all the same. The fact is aerial gunning has been going on in 5bn for quite a while and in 10 for a while as well, not sure exactly how long but it matters not. I've never heard any complaints about it. Not from local residents, not from news stations and not from the antis. I am one that has suggested aerial gunning for coyotes in region 4. Its not to provide more hunting opportunities, its to save a deer herd. We haven't lost hunting opportunites in region 4, or anywhere else in the state, to predators. The changes to tag numbers statewide has been to comply with the commissions change in required buck/doe ratios, not because of predators. Coyotes don't kill the same deer we hunt, they kill fawns and they are doing a great job of it. Call it what you like but that fact is we have a serious coyotes problem in this state. I for one am inclined to push for what's right, not for what is popular. I personally don't think the general public has the same perception of coyotes vs mountain lions. I think the general public has a very different view of coyotes because of the issues we are having right here in the valley. Nobody is talking about aerial gunning lions. Game and fish evidently felt comfortable enough to allow daylong hunts for lions and multiple bag limits and they have always been very careful about public perception. Their aversion to "largescale" coyote control is affected some by public perception but honestly has more to do with cost than what the public thinks. Yes, I think it is wise to take a careful approach to these matters but it is cowardly to avoid the issue altogether for fear of negative attention. Our muledeer herds are suffering not only from drought but from growing coyote populations. I love this one. "Demanding large-scale predator control to restore hunting opportunities to what they were 25 years ago works well for demagogues looking to rally hunters around a cause or an organization, but it isn't playing our cards very smartly." I personally find this a bit offensive. 70%! 70% is how far down herd numbers are in 42. Not big buck numbers, total herd. That decline can be directly attributed to predation. To dismiss me or anyone else as "demagogues" because we care about the deer is truly offensive. The fact is, tag numbers haven't dropped at a rate that affect anyone really so it has absolutley nothing to do with hunting opportunity. It has to do with the fact that we love the desert and we love our deer and they are being affected on a "large-scale" and not by us! If it is your desire to take a milktoast approach to the predator issues we face, have at it. I will fight for what is best for our deer herds regardless of public perception because its what's best for our wildlife. If I lose in the end and Arizona goes the way of California, so be it. At least I know I made every effort and I bowed to nobody with a HSUS handbag. BTW, I love how some people will talk about the need for more coyote hunts and beat the predator drum then talk out the side of their face and agree with a post like that. Unbelieveable!

Because with the alternative management hunts they are dropping rifle tags quite a bit. On the dec hunts, they drop a few tags off the early rifle hunt and move them to late. They also count somthing we pay zero attention to and that's hunter days. An open archery unit is going to have 100's more hunter days than a archery draw unit. They can estimate so much revenue per huner day. More hunter days equals more revenue in the long run. 17 for example. They dropped 75 total tags between A and B and moved 25 of those to the late hunt. So they are down 50 tags in 17a and b, 50 tags they were going to drop anyway because of the buck/doe ratio guidlines. How many rifle tags did they drop in 3a/3c? I'm betting all told it was more than 50. Here's the biggest thing though. This year, there's only 5 units with late tags. But next year, that could double. I could see that happening for sure but I don't see them doubling AM areas. They could end up giving half the units in the state, or more, late hunts. More apps, more non-resident apps, more guys pulling out of the rat race on the strip and burning points. All in all, more attention paid to Arizona deer. Alternative mangement units just don't have the same kind of allure about them. You know? As far as 1 or 27 getting the AM status, I'm not saying they wouldn't be better choices for it, I just don't see G and F doing it for quite a while. 3 years doesn't seem like enough time to make that big an impact on trophy quality. I think 3 years might be the bare minimum but they won't change it that fast. I would personally like to see them drop the whole AM idea altogether and put more Dec hunts out there. Just my opinion.

3a/3c is part of the alternative management plan. The commission gave the dept the directive to create alternative management units in each region. Supposed to be at least 1 unit per region. The dept originally had 3a/3c slated for 125 archery tags but the ABA pushed for more tags at the hunt recomendation meeting and got them. This will probably be the only year there will be junior tags in 3a/3c as well. Next year they will move those junior tags to a different unit. You probably won't see 1 or 27 go alternative management as they are in the same region as the 3's I think... At least unit 1 is for sure. The dept is trying a couple things right now. The alternative management plan and the dec rifle hunts. They will generate more revenue with the dec rifle hunt structure vs the AMP. I like the Dec rifle hunt idea better myself. Both plans are designed to be for trophy quality deer but the Dec hunt plan makes the dept more money and I think sportsmen will like the dec hunts better. It will thin the bonus point pressure from residents on the strip and kiabab too. Both are good plans though and I hope we start seeing some boomers come from somewhere other than the strip and kiabab. I think we will and it will be great for the state when we do.

Dropping mule deer tags doesn't effect the deer herds as much as people would hope. With the relatively low success rate, dropping tags by 100 in most units only saves 15-20 bucks. Compair that to nearly $4200.00 the dept would lose and it doesn't seem worth it. They dropped mule deer tags by something like 1500 this year I think. If you average say 20 percent success across the state, they are saving 300 deer and losing $63,000.00 in revenue. Puts a little different perspective on dropping tag numbers huh? I like the dec hunt plan. It will bring much needed attention down off the strip and kiabab. It will also hopefully take some of the bonus point pressure from up there. Guides will do better because of the dec hunts as well. The hunt success on these dec hunts will be interesting to see as well. I think it will be in the 90's in 7, 23, and 27. 17a and b might be lower. Next year I would like to see them add 20a, 10, 6a, 16a and one of the desert unit in the 30's. I also wouldn't mind if they raised tag prices on these hunts.

And let me add this. If we want to unite as sportsmen, we need to be a strong unit. We have to have a bond other than hunting. There has to be a friendship there. Projects go a long long way in building relationships. How much easier is it to call a friend out about something compaired to a relative stanger? How much easier is it to ask a friend to check their motives? This may sound a bit cheesy but we all need to be friends here. That would do more to unite us than any HB2072 or any other common goal could do.

The best way to keep "politics" out of our end, as average joes and as conservationists, is to always keep the focus on wildlife. And... When I say politics, I mean when we are political in our approach to each other, not the stuff we all face as a hunting culture. If you have an idea or motivation to do something, always check yourself and be honest enough to say "is this for me and to make me look good or is it for wildlife?". Most of us are men and with that comes egos. We naturally want to promote ourselves and be seen by our peers as valuable. But... Sometimes that takes presidence in our motivation over what is best for wildlife. I've caught myself at times recently "padding" my own ego and I had to take a step back and check my motives. I think there are some who set a good example of this line of thought. But there are some that represent the self motivated side as well. What we as individuals can do is find those who set a good example of having the right motives and promote the heck out of them, build them up and learn from them. There's one guy on this thread I know I wish I could learn more from. Taking a constant positive approach like that will eventually weed out those who are self motivated and we can do a house cleaning of sorts. Unfortunately, in this day and age, humility doesn't always push the best leaders to the fore front so its our job as sportsmen to seek out the humble leaders and get behind them.

I was going off about this very subject a month ago and got a very good response. We had quite a good little movement starting. But politics happened and burned me bad. I'm taking a break from this stuff. If theres a project I can be available and help on, great! But I need a break.

Steve, you know my mind on this subject and I can promise you I will not be detered from getting my hands dirty. I'm just telling you what I'm hearing from guys I know. Here's the bottom line... People have jobs and drama there. People have home and drama there. People have extended family and drama there. People have friends and drama there. They want their passion to be fun and drama free, especially if they are volunteering. Its supposed to be fun. Hard work can be a lot of fun! Hunters, by nature, are not affraid to work hard. But, they don't want their volunteer time tainted by a bunch of BS. Who would? Steve, again, you know my mind. Donnie

Used to catch some big crappie in that one lake where we did pft's. Did you ever try and fidh there?

I agree with you on the desire part. I think there might be more desire to help out there than we relize though. I don't run into guys that don't have the desire to help, I run into guys that have no desire for the politics. Unfortunately, theres more of that garbage in these orgs than i care to speak of. I know many many guys that are willing to help but as soon as the political crap starts happening they are out. I've gotten a pretty good taste of that stuff myself and its all I can do to even have the desire to post anymore on these subjects. Unfortunately when you start talking about projects, you start talking about orgs and when you start talking about orgs then you start with the politics and thats when you lose people. As I said before, there are things out there that still need to be done. I've got 5-8 good guys I can count on to show up to a little work project and I know above anything it will be fun and it won't be politics. Thats where I will be.

I was in one of the barracks on the little road that led up to the brig. Can't remember the name of the road but it was past where yours were on the main road headed toward mainside. I think it was the last light headed south/southeast? Been alot of years.

Oops yep you're right. I got my 6's and 3's mixed up. I also worked on CH-46 sea knights and got the last number confused. I worked on 4 helos. AH-1W Cobras, UH-1 Hueys, CH-46 Sea Knights and CH-53 Sea Stallions. My barracks at Pendelton was across the road from the flight line. I got to hear Cobras make hard banks right above my head al night long most nights. You don't leave a full cup of water on your end table, that's for sure. Thanks for the correction Joe. OORAH!!!

One thing I'm going to require at my house for my 6 kids is from now on, if they want to hunt, they have to go volunteer on a water or habitat project before they can even apply. I want to make it a habit for them and hopefully they will carry that on when they are adults. I would really like to see hunters educate themselves about the species they hunt. My favorite animal is the desert muley so I have read all the research I can get my hands on to educate myself about what these deer need. If we were more educated about our species of focus, we could have a better undcerstanding of what game and fish has to deal with and how to better assist them. I hear things all the time about shutting down units to let the herds grow and other such things. I recently thought that was a good idea myself but since I started reading the research and educating myself, I found out that closing a unit will not grow deer herds at all. Will more bucks be there? Yes but it won't grow anymore does or fawns or deal with what hurts them. Herd health is measured by fawn/doe ratio, not buck/doe ratio unless..... buck/doe ratios fall below 7/100 or above 40/100. I hear that sort of old dogmatic retoric all of the time and what those mindsets create in the long run is more challenges for the dept. They end up managing us instead of the deer. To me, educated hunters are as valuable as volunteering hunters.

You don't ever realize how big those dang things are till you're standing next to one. They are like a tour bus with rotorblades.

And how many of the "boots" were foolish enough to push the ball? Well we could only get one out of every group that came in, so not a whole lot. Just so everyone knows a "boot" is a fesh body out of boot camp. The best fun by far with boots was hammer qual (qualifying). We would get our fresh young Marines sitting in a line on the deck (floor). We would give them each a hammer of some sort and put a penny on the floor in front of them. we would let them take a few practice swings at the penny then we would blindfold them and tell them whoevers penny looked the worst when we said stop got the rest of the day off. With them blindfolded really good we would say go! After a few seconds of them swinging away we'd throw their "covers" (camo hats, part of the uniform) over the penny. They would beat the holy heck out of their own covers. these things would look like you put them in the garbage disposal. Then we'd tell them to stop and let them take their blindfolds off to see who won. Of course that was usually their only cover so they had to walk around the rest of the day looking like hobos till the got to the PX for a new one. I have so many stories of stuff we used to pull for fun, don't get me going. LOVED my time in the Corps!!!

Little trick we used to play on "boot" Marines was to have them go and push in the ball on the front of the re-fueling boom and they would get a JP-5 fuel bath.

And Coach, you're partly correct. The designer was Igor Sikorsky, Russian/American. Little trivia for you, that helocopter in that picture can fly from 0-10,000 feet faster than an F-18!

CH-56E Sea/Super Stallion. Its a Marine Corps or Navy helocopter. The "E" indicates its the suped up version with 3 turbines vs. 2 and 7 blades vs. 6. When I was in the Corps there was only one squadron of the E types in Okinawa. They may have more now or it could be a navy helo or border patrol. I had the great pleasure of being a helo mechanic when I was active duty and worked on 56's among others. If its not being flown by BP Navy or Marines, I can't imagine who would need the 56E. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_CH-53E_Super_Stallion

Well guys, most of you know what I've been doing because you get to read what my big mouth comes up with. TLH is now the regional director for the MDF. He will do a good job here in AZ. Since he has taken that new position we are still considering what to do with SWSA. If Terry can gain enough support in region 4 through MDF, they can start a chapter there and there wouldn't be a need for another org out there. But, if there isn't much interest generated by an MDF chapter, we will slowly and methodically move forward with SWSA. Its easy to hurry through the process and make mistakes. Troy and I want a group of friends who can get together and get things accomplished. We really want to stay away from the political garbage. Terry is a good fit for his new position and no matter what we decide to do with SWSA i would encourage everyone to join the MDF, I am. Troy will be getting a list of drinkers in region 4 that need attention of some sort. We will post on here anytime there is a project to be worked on. Please feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns you might have. The important thing is to stay involved guys!

Next time you have a shot at that guy with a bow he could be 25 miles from there. Those desert bucks travel far and wide during the rut. No chance for August, not hunt there in August.

The one on the left is classic wide open buck. Love those kind of bucks. One on the right is a big heavy toad. Both beautiful deer, thanks for posting them

145-150

Maybe we can get them to start hiking around lake pleasant. They start pissing and moaning about dung and we can agree with them and have a donkey hunt!!!!

so can anyone make a guess at what the draw odds are gonna be? With that few tags, if everyone that applies for 1st and 2nd choice hunts in the units applies for the dec hunt.... it'll be the same kind of draw odds we see on the strip. I ran the numbers on the 17 hunt and for 17a and 17b there were a total of around 2500 first and second choice combined applicants last year. there are 25 tags in there so that would make draw odds around 1%. I don't know that I will bother applying. Donnie