donniedent

You are right you aren't gauranteed a tag but you stand alot better chance, especially if you apply for "fringe" units. And as far as the majority of hunters go, if you could put a waiting period system together that was fair and increased drawing odds for everyone and put it to a vote, it would win by a land slide. From what I've read here in this thread a good number of guys like the idea. Listen, I'm not saying its a perfect idea. It has alot of "if's" and "what if's". As a matter of fact I like the idea of 50% going to max point holders and then if you draw you gotta wait 2 years. I think its a much better idea than a straight across the board 5 year wait. The ONLY way to better the draw odds is to eliminate applicants, the only way to do that is a waiting period, there is no other way to do it. Donnie

Yes, you're right about unit 10 but take real numbers and apply them as a total number of tags and a total number of applicants. 2 years wouldn't be near enough of a wait, I was thinking more along the lines of 5-6 years. I'm waiting that long now, so why not have to wait that long and have a much greater chance of being drawn. Makes perfect sense to me. Donnie Ok, that's funny, sort of. Here is what I have suspected, at least half heartedly, for the past several years, but have never mentioned it to anyone for fear of being laughed out of the building, but here goes. You hear of alot of people that draw more than one very hard to get tags every year. What if, by mistake, the program used to assign all the random numbers in the drawing was giving some people the same random number for every species? You are supposed to get a new number for every species, in essence a seperate drawing for deer, sheep, elk, etc. So, say Joe Hunter gets a real low number in the elk draw, then when it's time for drawing the sheep tags, instead of being given him a new number, the computer lets him keep the original? As complicated as all the rules are now witht he bonus points, percentages, etc, it would not be that unfeasible to think the program had a bug or two. I've heard of too many people that have drawn antelope and late Kaibab or sheep and early elk, to think that it is pure luck. I myself once drew a rifle antelope tag (1 bonus point), a 7W rifle bull tag (2 bonus points) and a unit 33 Coues tag (1 bonus point) in the same year. Ok, Im going back in the basement now, putting my tin foil hat back on and waiting for the black helicopters to swarm my house. I was wondering the same thing! With all the mess-ups that DO happen, it is very feasible for that to happen. BTW.......I know of a guy who got an Arivaipa Sheep tag AND an Early rifle BUll tag THIS YEAR! And I also personnally know three guys who drew 3 Early Rifle Bull tags AND 3 Strip tags in the same year a couple years ago. It happens too often with incredible odds against it to not make you wonder!? JIM> Those guys were non-residents too. I heard about those same guys.

Let me clarify something, I don't think the regular Joe's working at G&F are greedy at all. I know for a fact that they have to love what they do cuz they don't make squat. I'm talking about the commission. You tell me that trying to move elk tags from the rut to nov. wasn't a money move. They tried to do it under the guise of hunter opprotunity but it was for money. Think about it like this, which hunt has better success rates? No question, the rut hunt. Lets say you move..... 100 archery tags from the rut to a nov hunt. Well during the rut hunt 40 maybe 45 of those tags are filled. In nov you're looking at more like 10 to 15. So G&F just made the same amount of money but it cost them 30 less bulls. Tell me its not about money!!! They only care about hunters enough to take thier money and its not going to change until we ALL decide to get rid of this idiot we have in the governors office right now. Tell me she doesn't let the commissionors know what SHE wants to acheive. As far as going to the meetings, I go as much as I can and we should all make an effort to go to more meetings. In that sense you are completely right. Donnie

The main things I don't like about preference points is that they are unit specific and with the amount of people putting in for elk hunts here you'd draw a tag once every 15 years. These are in no way real numbers, just an example. Say you have on average 200,000 elk applicants and on average 15,000 elk tags. Year one you eliminate 15,000 hunters from the draw for 6 years. Year two 15,000 more. Year three 15,000 more. Year four 15,000 more. Year five 15,000 more and finally another 15,000 after year six. By the time the year one hunters are ready to put in again they'll only be going against 110,000 other applicants. So after the first six years you'll only have 125,000 applicants versus the 200,000 you have now. After six years your thrown back into the lottery but with much better odds. That doesn't factor in growth or decline of the hunting population but you get my drift. Also I used 6 years between tags beacuse the numbers came out rounder. I think 3 would be enough with the real numbers we're dealing with now. Anyway it doesn't matter cause they'll never do it. Why???? MONEY. Donnie

Odds don't make much of a differance anymore, they're all dang near the same for bull tags. But you are right, if you only apply for one unit year after year, especially unit 1, you need to accept the fact that you aren't gonna draw much. The ONLY thing that is going to improve draw odds fairly is if there aren't as many people putting in. Now you can price people out, you can create a "line" with prefrence points or you can make people skip a few years after they draw a bull tag. I think most everyone would rather skip a few years if he stands a better chance at drawing a tag when his 3 or 5 years is up. Why doesn't game and fish do it???? MONEY..... money money money money money. They would lose waaayyy too much money if they did that. So they wouldn't ever do it. Shoot they were just trying to find a way a few months back to capitalize on the system we have by moving a bunch of rut tags to Nov. If you don't think thats what they were doing we need to talk more. The only way G&F would buy it would be if they still got our money in the "off" years. They found out real fast after the Taulman thing that people will go to GREAT lengths to hunt and spend huge amounts of money to ensure they'll get a tag. The problem we have now is a commission that doesn't give a rip about the hunting expierience, they just want to make as much money as possible off us hunters until they can get rid of us altogether. Think I'm overreacting, ask a wolf! Donnie

Thats the problem its not the luck of the draw if guys are getting drawn every year because they know someone. Also, its NOT waiting in line, theres still a lottery, you still have bonus points you just can't go and shoot bulls year after year after year. I know of a guy, very nice guy and is just flat lucky, that has drawn an elk tag 13 out of the last 15 years, not just bull tags though. He's drawn alot of cow tags too. Now I KNOW he's not up to anything shady, hes a good man but that just goes to show you that the system they have is a piece of crap. I hate the idea of once in a lifetime and with all the people we have putting in for AZ elk you'd never have enough preferance points to draw an elk tag after 10 years, they need to go back to a 3 or 5 year system. Also, even the guy who's been drawn 13 out of 15 years wants to see it go back to that. Donnie

I'd like to see them go back to the system where if you draw a bull elk tag, you have to wait 3 years to apply again. But I'd change it a little, if you want to put in for cow tags in the mean time great but you gotta wait 3 years to apply again for a bull tag. Lets face it, these days a good majority of hunters are hunting horns, nothing wrong with that but its a fact. So lets take turns so the same guys aren't drawing all the tags. I had a guy tell me he's been drawn for 5bn archery bull 2 years in a row. Now I don't know what kinda points he had last year but he only had at the max 2 this year, I applied with 4 and didn't draw, its just not fair. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a whiner but I'd just like to see some fairness. Donnie

Wow, thanks Terry. I really appriciate that. I've got a buck I've been watching for 3 years now that I'll be going after. He "should" go about 175 this year and probably will with the summer rain my little valleys been getting. BUT..... you know what finding a big buck is like in Nov. so I'll take every piece of advice I can get. I had a guy on another forum (doesn't hold a candle to coueswhitetail or azod as to quality of members) tell me that all the deer jumped to 22 after the fires. I told him I hope everyone else thinks like him. We'll keep the "secrets" about 21 mulies between us. Anyway, if you need help on the glass come Dec. don't hesitate to ask, I LOVE the desert! Thx again. Donnie

That should be a fun hunt T. I've often thought about putting in for that hunt, I imagine you'll be hunting the whitetanks??? I drew the 21 hunt as well, maybe I'll see you guys out there. Congrats. Donnie

No elk this year but I drew a unit 21 mulie tag, coupled with Reg W Buck tag and an area 82 doe tag in Wyoming. Lots of Carp to eat this year. Hey baby... I'm hunting!!! Donnie

AMEN to that not apologizing comment!!!1 Donnie

Very talented guy!! NICE DEER Donnie

Amen on the kid idea....uuuhhhh.... as long as I get drawn...lol Donnie

LOL.... I know what you mean but thats part of the fun. I just can't wait to see the thread titled "THE RESULTS ARE UP"!!! Donnie

Yep, probably just another day. You know, I was all pumped to see the results but I'm to the point now that as long as we see em next week sometime I'm fine with it. Just alot of wasted energy and time worrying about something I have no control over. Shoot, I've got 2 deer tags for southwestern Wyoming in my hand.... I'm hunting this year baby!!!! Donnie

I love your outlook muleskinner Donnie

Nobody knows if they've drawn tags or not yet. You won't know till the fat lady sings and game and fish has turned out to be one fat woman!! LOL Good luck bud, Donnie

All this crap is exactly why I apply for hunts in other states. Its alot more money but at least I've known for nearly a month that I have a buck and a doe tag for Wyoming, its deffinatly worth the extra money. Nowadays with chances of being drawn in AZ for anything, if you wanna hunt you gotta go somewhere else sometimes. I don't know whether or not I drew a tag here because I like hearing or seeing "drawn" but more often than not it says "not drawn". Anyway let the wait go on. Donnie

Did anyone happen to notice the screen switch earlier today? There was a new picture instead of that roadless thing. It was picture of a bull elk with a link to an explanation of the prior problems they had with people not getting a confermation code and being over charged. I clicked in and there it was so I clicked on the link and it was a few pargraphs about putting people who had problems names in a pending file and going through them one at a time. Wemt back a few minutes later and it was back to the roadless thing. I guess in the end you either get drawn or you don't. Donnie

LOL... I couldn't help myself....LOL Oh yeah it was actually a girl and she said her name was.... (singing....) T E double N E double S double E G.....I......R.....L!!!!!! I'm out guys..... I don't open my gifts till Christmas morning. Donnie

No bad feelings here brother... your ALWAYS welcome at my camp.

I hate to be the one to burst bubbles here guys but I called TN. I got an IT guy on night shift and it seems there been yet another f-up. I guess there was a computer glinch and they started charging un-successful applicants. The guy said with the system they use its just a little toggle button someone didn't click on. They said that it won't be any big deal to re-emburse everyone but he said and I quote "The damage has already been done". Again, Sorry guys. Donnie AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH GOTCHA!!! Congrats to all you lucky tag holders.

I think where it starts is with the counts. Wildlife managers in more northern states actually have it a little easier because they have deer and elk on winter ranges. This concentrates the animals a little more and probably makes them a little easier to count. Here they don't have such concentrated areasto live in during the winter, therefore everything the biologists are trying to do takes longer. The last meetings to set tag limits don't end until the end of April. Then they have re-write the regs and they come out in the middle of May.... and so on and so forth. They deffinately need to do something about the problems they've been having but over all they do pretty good. I'm not talking about the rest of what they do but with the draw they do pretty good. It will be ALOT better next year when they accept apps earlier for goats and elk. I feel really sorry for the guys that put in for an archery Antelope tag.... I'd be going CRAZY if I were them. Donnie

Great thing about discussions like this is that you get to hear alot of good points. After reading back through and considering some of the other points made about this, I've learned one thing.... I've always got more to learn. I should actually know better than to consider anything the greenies do good for anything but kitty litter. Donnie

Dave, You are right about people breaking the rules no matter what they are. I'm sure no matter what the rules are, people will still be slobs. But I don't see anything changing now. So whats gonna change things? What do we do to weed out the bad apples???? A mixed bag of people, some of which I agree with on every issue and some I don't agree with EVER, are trying to change some things to keep Arizona beautiful. Its very hard, after all the idiotic things I've witnessed, not to want to see somebody finally make some changes that will make a difference. Sure, some of the entities inolved make my skin crawl but nobody else is doing anything. Arizona is NEVER gonna stop growing. It hasn't stopped growing since the invention of air conditioning. The more people that come here, the more idiots come right behind them. If we don't make some kind of change now there will be no more untouched places left. There will be a quad trail up and down every mountian and canyon in Arizona and as for your honey holes??? Bye Bye! Also, and I'm not trying to sound condisending, would it be so bad if they created a few more wilderness areas?? I can think of a few areas I would love to see gain that status. So you can't drive right in and start banging away. Wouldn't that help keep some of the lazy ding dongs out. Think of how big some the bucks would get if they saw 10% of the hunters they are seeing now. I've wandered in to some of the wilderness areas around Arizona and what a striking contrast. I couldn't believe some of the untouched country I saw. Examples: THe Juniper Mesa wilderness, Awsome country, Hells Gate wilderness, you get into that one a mile and .... Well never mind... I'll keep that one a secret. Anyway, I don't see anyone else doing anything about problem so until I see some better ideas I'm gonna keep an opened mind on this one. Donnie