donniedent

Wow a .600!!! I didn't think they made anything that big without 8 wheels and tracks under it! We disagreed on the last post but I'm with you on this one Lark!!! Except I prefer my Winchester model 70 7mm rem mag shooting 139 grain btsp's. I would use that gun and that load for almost everything in North America. Fact is, there are so many good calibers out there now. Its like with different makes of bows, whatever fits you and you shoot the best... thats the caliber for you. Donnie

As a group we need to make a push to not only keep those non-hunters who like us where they are, but get those who could go either way on our side. You're not going to get that done by blasting critters away where they can see it from their porches, or by flashing around a bunch of photos of animals with tongues hanging & blood streaming from their wounds. We all know how things used to be a couple decades ago when it seemed like everyone hunted & it was common place to see station wagons driving down the highway with deer strapped to the hood or a pick-up with a big bull elk head hangin out the back during hunting season. Unfortunately, things are different now. Everyone's become to sensitive & easy to offend. I believe that's the natural result of living the life of relative luxury & convenience that we yanks all do, where we seldom have to get our hands dirty & do things for ourselves. Everyone's aware that cows have to die in order to grill our burgers on Friday night, but we don't have to see it. We just have to go to the Super Wal-mart & pick up some shrink wrapped ground beef. Show those same consumers some footage of how a slaughter house operates & most of 'em would immediately go to the "that's so cruel" card. Dwight Schue wrote an excellent editorial a few months back in BH mag on taking trophy photos. Among his suggestions were to carry a small piece of thread & some paper towels or napkins in your pack so that you can tie the mouth shut & wipe off the excess blood prior to taking your trophy photos. Another suggestion is to role the animal over so that you get a photo of the side with the least damage. One of the better tips I recall reading was in regard to animals that had already been field dressed or cut into pieces: save these pics for fellow hunters, not your neighbor who's sitting on the fence. I've personally fostered a lot of interest in my bowhunting with the people at work by showing off trail cam photos. We have a Field Quality Engineer from our customer who is in & out of our shop several times a week that was telling me not two months ago how cruel hunting was, but I'm proud to claim that I changed her tune. She now will ask me if I've been out or gotten any new pics. Showing people that you spend a huge amount of time & effort out studying & enjoying these animals and demonstrating the respect you have for them, that you don't simply view them as targets with a pulse, will go a long way. p.s. the non-hunters seem to really like the uncommon critter pics. My lion pics & cotamundi are local favorites. Keep in mind that most of them rarely see a deer, let alone something that's rare for us to spot. Great post, you make some very good points. But, I don't see how sheltering non-hunters from the reality of hunting will do any good in the future. To truly educate someone, you need to show them all aspects of hunting. But if showing only trailcam pics and clean kill photos is changing peoples minds for you, maybe thats the way to do it! Again, excellent post!

Shoot Lark, you gotta be smarter than me... you knew how to spell "testosterone" AND you knew where to put the apostrophe in " 'pologize ". LOL. You're a good guy Lark.... now don't tell anyone but there are some Canadian Geese hanging out in the parking lot down here at Turf Paradise, whats say you and I have a go at 'em???? Donnie

Sorry if I got a little mouthy Lark. I just get fired up sometimes. I don't think it should be common practice for any of us to hunt lawn ornaments. But.... I also think we as hunters need to remind the non-hunting public that we have a right to be there too, even if its on the fringes. You also need to remember that this is the reason G&F does depradation and limited opportunity hunts, those animals need to be controlled like any others. Now, that being said... Do I hunt near houses??? No. Would I enjoy hunting on the fringes??? No. Do I think others should hunt near houses??? Yes, if they don't mind the aggrivation of dealing with bunny-huggers. Do I think others have the right to hunt the fringes??? Yes, and I will ALWAYS defend other hunters rights to do so. As long as its a legal method of hunting... I will defend yours, mine and any hunter out there's right to hunt the way they choose. Lark, I'm with you buddy. Get me as far from civilization a possible but in the eyes of the public, we need to appear as a united front, unwavering in our defense of the sport we love!! Donnie

I know the laws partner, I wouldn't be a responsible hunter if I didn't. There are no laws stating how far you need to be from an occupied building with a bow. I think we as hunters would be ignorant not to manage the WHOLE herd, not just the ones you think are wild. Anyone with any common sense would know that animals such as deer attract predators and predators in an urban setting are nothing but problems. I've seen these problems with my own eyes. A neighbor of mine near my cabin in the Bradshaws thought it would be cool to feed the local deer. Well, 2 years ago my dog was attacked by a lion not 50 yds. from my cabin on my property. The only reason that lion would be anywhere near humans was if there were plenty of game animals around. Thanks to my other dog attacking the lion, both dogs walked away with only a few scratches. Thats why G&F has laws against feeding wildlife, they don't want deer and elk that close to humans. So to keep those semi-domesticated big game animals around and not hunt them is STUPID! There are reasons and purposes for the laws that are in place. If it's legal, it's right and there are very good reasons for it being legal. "if you wanna shoot around where people live, go ahead, but don't call yourself a hunter anymore." How you choose to hunt is your business. But don't even dare to say that I'm not a hunter because of where I choose hunt. Fact is I hunt the roughest nastiest country in Arizona and I'd be willing to bet this ol' marine would hike your butt into the dirt. You hunt where you choose but don't pretend to be the ethics police for other guys who, by the way, have the same right to choose where they hunt. Donnie

I think you're mistaken, its either 100 feet or 100 yds. can't quite remember but I know for a fact its not as far as a 1/4 mile. What me and my hunting partners are running into more and more is people (many from California) who buy a house near National Forest and expect people stay to out of site, even if we're on public land. We need to stand firm, we have the right to be there!!! Now, we need to use common sense and not shoot toward homes, that really goes without saying but if I see a bull standing in a field 100 yds. from someones property line and I'm on public land carrying a bow..... I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO TAKE THE SHOT AND WILL!!! If the bull jumps their fence and dies, I might have to dig into my pocket and thats the chance I'd take. We NEED to quit being so scared of bad press. We need to meet it head on and make sure we stand for our rights. Backing down to opposition and trying to appease the anti's has gotten us absolutely nowhere. What we can do is continue to educate new hunters as to what they should and shouldn't do and as long as we operate within the law we have nothing to worry about, bad press or not. Donnie

I don't think those hunters did anything wrong at all. I have had a few run-ins with anti-hunting land owners and we need to stand firm. Don't live near an airport if you don't like jets flying overhead. These folks that move to the fringes tend to get an ownership type feeling over the public lands and wildlife around thier property and they need to be constantly reminded that it is PUBLIC property and so is the wildlife! Also, if its not posted... I'm going in. Very simple, post no trespassing signs every 100 feet if you don't want others on your property. I respect land owner rights but I respect my own as well. Donnie

I hope when I finally close the deal on a bull of a lifetime (if I ever do), I do it like these guys did. A bunch of buddies having a great time without having to spend their kids college money to do it. Great job to those hunters, one thing though... don't get caught up in the trophy hoopla. Just be thankful you were blessed with a beautiful bull. Whatever the overall expirience scores is the only score that matters! Donnie

What a way to start the fall, great buck!!! Guys call em carp around here but its really all about the hunt. You have any other tags this year??? Donnie P.S. Get that tag off those antlers asap, you don't wanna pull any velvet oif you're gonna mount him.... You are gonna mount him RIGHT!!!

Another good thing to try is a desert cover scent. Go out and cut some branches off creasote bushes. Remove all the little leaves you can into a pot. Add water and mix it all up. Use an old pot because the tar will coat the inside of the pot. Boil that for about 1 hour. Strain all the leaves off so that all you have is a green/brown liquid. Then take and old rag and poor the liquid through that. Do that a few times to make sure you have no leaves or tar in your cover scent. Put it in a bottle and spray on your boots and\or hat. Don't worry about staining because its the same color as most camo's. I'll tell you what, its strong and it smells just like the desert after in rains. Good stuff. Donnie

Sounds like a free for all, kinda scary. Donnie

You know, I said this in a different thread and I'll say it again here. G&F's biggest downfall is not providing us with a good explenation of why they do things. They don't tell us how they project the deer to be affected. They don't give us anything. They hold a few meetings and do what they want anyway. Why not send out a statement, telling us all the reasons they are doing what they are doing. Why not inform us as to how they plan on structuring the draw. Its seems like they want to accomplish a goal and they step all over thier biggest supports to attain that goal. Just tell us what the heck you're doing and maybe you'll get more support!! Donnie

Thats is an idea I have not heard here yet! Great post, somehting to think about. Donnie

I went a did a little reaserch and found that I am only partly right about the yearling issue. It seems that during times of good food availability it is good to take spikes. Spikes that are produced during good years are actually genetically infirior when it comes to antler growth. During bad years spikes may account for up to 80% of the total yearling population so it is especially bad to take them during a drought because some do have good genetics and are only spikes because of poor nutrtion. So its the yearling forkies and better that we should aviod shooting because they have the better genes to pass on to thier offspring. I still contend that it is better to take mature animals who have had the chance to pass thier genes on to the next generation. Genetic diversity promotes healthier animals.

I'm printing the form right now!!! Donnie

Good points. I am also pumped about being able to hunt there with a bow. We'll also be able to hunt 8 and 9 in January.

Biology 101: Genes are genes. They aren't like steak and get better with age. Put a few drops of sperm from a 1-yr. old buck in a test tube and a few from the buck when he's 4, freeze them and you won't see a difference in the offspring's genes if you impregnate the same doe over two years with sperm from each tube. My opinion on the archery deal and deer permits in general is quite simple: Each person should get ONE permit annually for ONE season with ONE weapon in ONE unit and be allowed ONE deer -- the same as it is for elk. See, told you it was simple. -TONY Never said genes got better with age Tony. When a buck is a year and a half old he breaks from the doe's and moves to a different area (herd). This prevents inter-breeding, which in turn promots genetic diversity. If we shoot these yearlings they never have a chance to take thier genes to a different area and breed with different doe's, spreading thier genes and strengthening the deer herds. If we don't give these young deer an opportunity to spread thier genes it will weaken the herds by only allowing the same bucks to breed year after year. This not only effects the bucks but the doe's as well. You get the same bucks breeding all the doe's and you'll eventually have inter-breeding which leads to genetically weak animals. This is why they only shoot mature bucks on Texas ranches or infirior bucks to prevent them from spreading thier genes. This is also why Texas ranchers trade mature bucks to other ranches so they can diversify the gene pool. This is all basic biology and I would figure you'd know it Tony. Donnie Also I like you idea about the hunt structure, the only thing I'd do differently is to add a special draw for the rut and to allow those drawn for the oct. hunt to also hunt the early hunt with a bow. Then if they don't tag out with a bow they can use the same tag for the rifle hunt. Just like Wyoming does it. Whyoming has also been successful with point restrictions in certain areas. They know what they're doing.

Why? If someone pays for their own hunting license/permit and wants to fill their tag with a spike, what concern is that for anyone else? They are entitled to kill one LEGAL deer, and what they kill is their own business. Geez, all the "what did it score" folks should be tickled; that means the spike-killing dude left all the big ones alone. -TONY Well thats your opinion Tony and you're entilted to it. I happen to believe that it healthier for the gene pool for the little guys to have of a chance, just my opinion. Thats not the point of this thread though. How do YOU feel about the new archery changes? What do you feel it will do for the herds in the affected units. We haven't heard much from you on this one Tony. What do you think? Donnie

I don't thinks so. I don't think there is much demand for guided archery muley hunts. If anything they'll probably get more calls. Besides, the fight is over... its a done deal. Gotta just work with it now. We'll find a way to benefit from it, I know I'm gonna try to figure something out. "People dont fill tags and everyone comes up to try to stick a spike, and we wonder where all our big deer went???" That is an understatement!!!!! Let em grow!

I think its gonna killem' on the Kiabab. What most residents will end up doing is putting the Kiabab hunt for a third or forth choice. I think with the projected numbers in 12a that only leaves 185 tags for NR's. Thats a fraction of the NR's that go up there now. Also, NR's aren't gonna burn any points they have on an archery hunt, no matter where it is. It will be interesting to see how things play out. Donnie

Great job on a fine trophy!!! Donnie

I think G&F knows what they want to see happen and will take the steps it requires to make them happen, with or without us. I think we could see some good effects from the draw in the future but thats not why G&F did what they did. They did what they did to even things out as they saw fit. You know the whole 20% thing. I see why they did it. I also think there is alot more double dipping going on than most of us realize. Thats another problem altogether. I also think the amount of archers failing to report their harvest have caused this problem. Lots of shadey guys out there fellas, we can thank them for this. Fact is, we don't have alot of deer out there and even though I can't stand how G&F goes about things, its gonna leave more deer out there. I'm still wondering who is gonna put in for a unit 7 early archery deer tag first or second choice. Not many! I also think you Kiabab guys are gonna love having less California and Utah plates up there too. Its too bad they didn't move a select few tags to rut hunts in these units as well. If they got creative, they could find ways to do a draw and still keep archers happy. But do they really care?? Donnie

Or they could just take my unsed tag and give it to the next guy in line in the draw. If guys don't like only having one chance at a deer they should buy a bow, thats what I did! By the way my tag won't be going to waste, it'll be going to a child in the HOAL program who really deserves it. It is what it is and we aren't going to change it at this point. Like I said before, lets take all this energy and direct it to something we can do something about. Go dig a water catchment this weekend, burn off some energy! Donnie

LOL... yeah sorry for my part in this. The exact reason I don't go THERE anymore! I think guys are just very passionant about archery hunting and I think we're ALL sick of G&F messing with our hunting. I think we'd all like to see more managment of wildlife and less managment of hunters. Its a fine balance and I think they've tipped the scales in the wrong direction lately. Stupid arguements aren't the norm around here but this is just evidence as to how much we love to bow hunt and how tired most of us have becone with OUR G&F department. Donnie

Ok.... Who's actually gonna put in for these draw hunts??? My guess is that all but maybe 2 units will be all leftover tags anyway. Then if they do go to the leftover draw... who's gonna put in for those??? Yeah, I'm gonna put in for a leftover unit 7 early archery deer tag, sounds kinda stupid huh??? Then again, whats gonna happen to all those spike that DON'T get nailed with milk still on their mouths, are they finally gonna make it past the first year??? Donnie