donniedent

Cool, I'm on the west side as well. Glad to have you pard.

Its really unfortunate how detached their membership is. I personally believ its an orgs responsabiity to keep their membership engaged. Why even belong to an org? What's the point.. A patch?

Awesome man! Go click on that link in my opening post and do that poll. Where do you live?

I will brother, thank you.

Let me add, those who are there to sell are doing nothing wrong, they are trying to make a living and if they found a way to do it thru hunting, I commend them. AZSFW is trying to "incorporate" a culture and sell it... Nothing more.

Thanks for the very kind words guys. I personally believe they are breathing thru a straw right now. They are trying to appear as if they have this wrapped up. You don't hire more lobbyists if you are achieving your goals. You don't go to the counties for support if you're winning. They are on the ropes and fighting for survival. If this idea fails, AZSFW is done. AZSFWC is done. Any org that is sitting the fence is in dire straights and will lose support. This idea must survive and become law for them, if they don't have members, at least they'll have money. For what, expos? Let's all reme$ber what an expo is... A big tent sale like what car dealers do... Nothing more. Some sell guns, some sell clothes and some sell memberships but they are all SELLING something! Its alllllll about the money they can make off of our culture.

I am completely sold on the idea of chapters. I think, as far as I can tell so far we have quite a few folks up there that want to be involved. But first things first. There are certain things we have to do to get this off the ground and we NEED your input. We are planning a get together bbq for the purpose of laying the rest oof the groundwork. We are trying to plan it so that anyone in the state that wants to be involved can come and give input. We will keep everyone posted.

You know what, I've been trying to stay quiet and just make my phone calls and send letters but I have about had it with these lobbyists. The fact that they are still trying so desperately to push this "idea" thru amid such opposition proves one thing to me... Nothing motivates like money. If this were truly about wildlife conservation and they had this much opposition, a rational mind would reconsider the effects of this turmoil on our culture. But that isn't the concern. It is very evident that at this point they are in a fight for their very existence. If this "idea" should ultimately fail, it will leave 2 or 3 orgs in basic ruin. Maybe at this point the money generated is a bonus, maybe survival is the true motivator. As for the fence riding orgs... Arrogance. I truly believe that any orgs that are riding the fence at this point are in a state of arrogance fed dilusion. They think that the sportsmen of this state will simply "forgive and forget" the fact that they held out to see what they could gain. There is a point where principle trumps benefit. I have almost resolved myself to the fact that hunting has truly lost its soul. I hope there are enough of us "soul hunters" out there to re-kindle the fire of the hunt. To remind everyone that we do this for the same reasons that a mountain lion stalks its prey. Its in its dna, its the inner urge to pursue a quarry. We have been sold this idea that its about what ends up on our wall. There's nothing wrong with evidence of a successful hunt, but the horns are there to remind us of the hunt, to go back and remember that feeling of being a predator. A true hunter will, in the end, relish the hunt most of all. You cannot buy or sell that feeling. Generating money for an expo only serves those who sell goods at that expo. I cannot go to an expo and buy the soul of a predator, its in my dna. You can't buy a crisp september morning, you cannot buy a skylined buck, you cannot purchase a predators soul.

I'm thrilled to see you two guys want to be involved. Funny, I told Terry in a an email "I like that Allen Taylor guy, I wonder if he would want to be involved". I like the way both of you guys think. I've been reading a lot of your posts recently and its very encouraging to see there are still rational thinking guys out here. I know there are many, many more and my hope is that anyone that wants to see something different happen will jump on board. I don't think SWSA will ever need a lobbyist, our membership can speak for themselves!

40 now.

I know that if I were an Org that needed to take a position on a bill like this, I would have been ahead of the game and had my members well informed of what the bill said. Unfortunately, this is politics. I personally believe that as soon as you lose focus of why you exist (wildlife conservation!) You compromise your mission and the wildlife you are meant to serve.

Let me add this. In a situation like this with HB2072, I envision a simple vote and if someone asks us for a stance, I would refer directly to the results of that vote ie... Our members voted 120-56 against this bill, and leave it at that. From my perspective, and I'm only 1 guy, I think we should be 100 percent about wildlife conservation. I'm sure everyone involved would agree with me but I won't assume to speak for anyone else. In cases like this with 2072, you take a vote and post results and members can individually lobby for or against it. We are here to support Game and Fish for the benefit of the wildlife. We have already received a very warm welcome and a great response from Game and Fish. They seem to be as excited as we are and I can only assume its because we are taking a different approach. I don't know for sure but it has been good. The point is, its about the members and the "regular joe" sportsmen. But first and foremost, its about the wildlife.

This might be seen as a big plug for Southwest Sportmens Alliance... Because it really is. Part of the reason we wanted to form this org is because of what we were seeing in the places we hunt, parts region 4 and parts of region 6. They weren't getting any attention from any other orgs that we could see. Big problems with predators and lackluster help on water projects. It just so happens that this HB2072 issue cam up in the middle of our planning and it actually diverted attention away from what we were trying to start and deservedly so. We have been working closely with 2 other orgs we as a group have great respect for, YVRGC and AES. They have provided us with a ton of good advice and help. It just so happens now that we are seeing individual sportsmen with great dissatisfaction with the "status quo". Although we do want to concentrate our efforts on the fore-mentioned areas, we have no idea what the future holds as far as branching out or possibly having regional charters. We are seeing the mule deer populations statewide (except the strip of course) being largely ignored. We want to implement a 1 member, 1 vote policy. We won't mail you a survey, we'll mail you a ballot. When ballots are counted, that's what we as a group will do. We will have board members that sit on our board and no others as to never have a conflict of interest. We truly want this org to be about its members and have the voice of our members be our policy. I realize this might seem to be a shameless plug but if you want something different, come help us create it!

We're at 36 and counting on our poll folks. Just as a side note, there is a catchment project coming up on April 28th on the 442 catchments. If anyone is interested I can post details.

Hit the nail on the head Kent. This just shows what happens when our ranks get split. The love of money is the root of all evil. All we can do now to counteract this is keep contacting our legislators and join good orgs that are against this garbage. Find a good org guys. And JOIN!

That's not a can of worms I'd want to open, I'm not a member. None of my business.

Rumor I heard was they were getting a 50/50 response. Half like it half don't.

Yes its the same one.

Jbeee, There is a link posted above for a roll call poll we are doing. We will be posting updates here as well to let everyone know our progress. Let us know any and all ideas you may have. We are looking for any and all input people may have. In the short time we have been working on this we have had some new and innovative ideas come up about a different way to support the department and help the wildlife. Thanks for stepping up and a big thanks!

So let me get this straight, 62 views and nobody is even a little interested? Did I mention that we will have voting membership? Yeah, we aren't going to mail you a survey, we're going to mail you a ballot. One member, one vote. Oh and our board... 1 member, 1 vote. We're discussing a possible 2-3 year term limit on board members. We're also discussing that if you are one another board you cannot be on ours. This is going to be something totally new. This is nothing against those other great orgs out there with guts, we just want to try something different, something new. We want the average sportsmen to finally, finally have a voice.

Sounds like a blast!!! I don't think it would fly though. No pun intended. I think is a lot more our orgs can do to promote more predator hunting. Our dept sees there is a problem, otherwise they wouldn't have opened up night shooting and special management ares for lions. I was at a meeting where Brian Wakeling spoke about coyote predation on mule deer and there haven't been substantial studies on the effects coyotes have on deer populations. 3bar showed that if you remove all predators, deer herds grow but... That will never happen. The dept is not yet sold on the idea that coyotes have that big of an effect on deer. And you will notice in that article, there was a former biologist that stated he was against it because it was misguided. I know what I see when I'm in the field and the more coyotes I see, the more the survey numbers drop. We need to take full advantage of what the dept is offering us. We need to get our butts out there and kill all the predators we can and do it at the right times. Snapshot made that point earlier. Nobody wants to be out in the sticks in the heat of the summer but that's when the deer need it. I'm working on some fresh ideas with SWSA and some possible incentives for hunters to bring in an ear or two, I will keep you guys updated on what we can do.

Let me start off by saying 1 simple thing, I'm talking to myself here too. For about a month now we have following this bill. We have argued its merits. We have have engaged in argements with fellow hunters and we've use inflamitory language. We have no one to blame but ourselves for the HB2072 mess and let me explain why. AZSFW has used the "anti" arguement as a big reason for this bill. They have also used "conservation" as a reason. So, they are seeking to obtain tags to auction off and hold raffles for to fund conservation projects and to fight the anti's for us. Interesting. Shouldn't we already be funding this effort. Let's say for arguments sake that AZSFW's motives are true and pure, why should they have to take our tags away from is to get the funding to do what is right? They shouldn't have any reason or excuse to take our tags, we should already be donating the funds through our current conservation orgs to do this stuff. There are too many of us who have sat back, bought our licences and drew our tags and called it conservation. That isn't near enough anymore guys. The anti's have huge sums of money at their disposal. Why? Because the people that share their beliefs dug deep and donated to their cause. We have sat on our collective butts. Now, realize there are many, many people who will read this who have done a comendable job of working for wildlife and digging deep and if that's you, please disregard this but there are plenty of people who have Not done enough and are wringing their hands over this bill. Well guys, had we not sat on our hands for so long we wouldn't be wringing them now. Do the research, find an org that holds your values and join them and become a member. Donate your time and whatever money you are able. If you want to preserve our heritage and culture, step up or shut up. Its like complaining about the president when you didn't vote.

You guys want to know what you can do in addition to fighting this bill???? Here you go, 10th post down, straight from the horses mouth. 5th post down is some good info as well! Let me add that is a special privledge to have these guys post. Please be respectful if you decide to reply. They are stepping out their box a little and have trusted us enough to speak on an open public forum. We want to keep it that way. http://www.thearizonahunter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7018&start=100

They won't though Keith. If it passes, they don't want to be out of the club and not get any of the money. Unfortunately some of the best orgs out there are being lured in by the almighty dollar. This bill represtent those that can afford to have a louder voice. Like someone said on another thread, they already know that 90 percent of hunters out there will forgive and forget. They know that 90 percent of the hunters will buy a licence, draw a tag and go hunting and that's where their participation will stop. That leaves them to do as they wish.

The sad thing is that the ADA and others are veiwed by everyone as a group of board members calling all the shots. The faceless hundreds of members are not considered in our statements about the group. Maybe that is how the ADA has represented itself, I don't know. When I think of an org I try and see it as a total sum of its membership, that's hard to do sometimes these days.