donniedent

Go to muledeerworkinggroup.com and you'll find many of the numbers come from there. AZGFD participated in the study.

Amen on the last sentence Rick. I have had the chance recently to speak to some folks at Game and Fish. The dept folks truly want what is best for Arizona wildlife. They want to see our herds flourish. The problem you run into with commissions is they are put in place, basically by the Gov. If you get a liberal Gov, you end up with a left leaning commission. The commission we have now is very right leaning which tends to line up with our thinking. The dept itself is made up of biologists. They aren't politically motivated, they are research and data motivated. They don't base their decisions on any emotion what so ever, they base it on data. But, if you have a commission that wants to say... Knock down predator numbers, many times the commission puts forth a directive to the dept and sometimes, the commission makes decisions without giving the dept the time to have a biological reason to make the change to knock down predators. That is why its is so important that we work with the dept and understand their way of thinking before we go crying to the commission. The system we have is a good one but... We NEED to work with the dept cheifs and come up with ideas with them before we take anything to the commission and push for quick fixes. We always complain that the dept manages hunters more than wildlife, well... Work with the dept instead of against them and they won't have to manage us!

I was actually thrilled to see where it ended up in the lineup last night. Pow, second story. That was awesome. What I'm curious to see is the follow up. I can't imagine the other side ist contacing them to tell their side. This could end up being a few segments. Especially if Crystal keeps digging. We may find out a lot more than we know about it. I think she knows there's a lot more to the story and she might just keep digging. Especially if she feels like she could dig up dirt on Jerry. I hope for Jerry's sake there's nothing else there. If they followed it up with a small piece this morning, then this story isn't dead for them this could be quite a long story.

Oh I know what he's saying, they feel they are sacrificing themselves for us and we're too blind to see it. I don't have a problem with people speaking of the Lord either but ANYONE comparing themselves to Jesus shows me their complete and utter arrogance and pride. That one email proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt what this is all about. I'm just thankful that the majority sees it, at least the people I know. It also makes me feel better and more confident about who I choose to associate with because I don't have one freind that sees any redeeming quality in this idea. There are two things we must do at this point IMO. 1, we have to be diligent and watchful of this group as they hopefully fade into oblivion and 2, its time for us to act. Its time for all unafiliated hunters to join together. Not just the unafiliated either. All the hunters out there who are fed up with how things have gone for so long need to find a conservation home. We have all gotten the chance to see what we don't like in an org, its time to join one that does represnt what we believe and support them. I don't care which group it is, just find one and join. Only that will keep this from happening again.

Ok, I'm calm enough to comment now. To actually attempt to compare their efforts to anything Jesus did is the perfect example of arrogance inspired dilusion. They have so convinced themselves that they are doing what is best for the rest of us that is almost comical. What Jesus did was give his life for mankind. That isn't what they are doing. If they were to sacrifice themselves in such a way, it would be to shut down operations so that our community could heal and move on. They aren't doing that, they are doing the opposite. That fighting for every breath. If they want to compare themselves to New Testament figures, the reality would be more like Judas.

I saw you in the background Ryan and i got all pumped. You guys all did a fantastic job!

No comment... I... No comment. Its better I don't open my mouth.

About 3 years ago a group of desert hunters got together and decided to try and do something about the declining mule deer numbers in the central deserts. The idea was to form an new org that would cover areas that were not receiving the attention it deserved. With the lack of interest being what it was the idea was abandoned. Fast forward to about a month ago. The same group of guys plus some more motivated individuals had a meeting with representatives from game and fish, Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club and AES to discuss the amlarming decline in mule deer numbers in the northern part of region 4. The meeting was very fruitful and educational. A decision was then made to start the process of creating a new organization. The desire was there to create an org that would truly represent the average hunter. Southwest Sportsmens Alliance was born. We are now in the process of obtaining our 501c3 status. We are currently planning water catchment projects, predator control plans, youth camps and building a great working relationship with Game and Fish. We are currently in a position that we don't want to move forward without full participation from the sportsmen this group will represent. We want to hear from you. There is a poll you can participate in that I will post a link to. If you have ANY questions please feel free to ask. This started out as an org that would concentrate on desert mule deer and desert bighorn sheep but we are rapidly realizing that there are individuals all over the state that want to be involved. Please take the time and check out the poll and ask any questions you would like. Here is the link: http://www.thearizonahunter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=7176&sid=7a79eaf49b2bbb0e8040233cd6e4db26 Thanks Donnie Lee

I'm hoping for sometime in early may Kent, we probably should talk about that. I know that April is going to be busy for some.

Yes, theoretically that could very well happen. The bill was retarded at best. The way its written, the way it was introduced, the way it has been pushed... The whole thing. The idea will continue to be pushed on the off chance it will pass like a kidney stone. But I believe that there enough diligent watchmen in our ranks that any attempt to slip it thru will be spotted and dealt with. The TV interview that coueshunter did should be the last nail in the coffin. Oh they will posture and puff up like a scared cat but their claws are gone. Be we must continue to be watchful though. They learned a lot this go round and will be much slicker in the next attempt. We must be watchful. They really blew it. The awoke a sleeping giant and this giant won't go back to sleep. This is only the beginning of our unification.

We're up to 45 on our poll. If you figure spouses, family and friends that don't frequent these sites I think the number will be closer to 100. Looking very good!

Awesome! But nevermind that a national organzation opposes this bill and idea, there are a few here in Arizona that know better! Their success proves it! RMEF has 5500 members in Arizona... I'd bet that is double if not triple the membership of those who are for this bill or who are riding the fence so to speak. What do they know.. Right?

BPJ, The predator control issue you mentioned is a big part of the problem. But in my opinion it is our problem as sportsmen to take care of. The dept can create a good environment for predator control but its our responsability to do the predator control. Its not the dept's fault that we can no longer trap, its our own fault. Now, if we are looking to the dept for arial shoots, we need to share the financial burden of that. This is our state and our wildlife, its our responsability to take care of it. As to the checkerboard question. There's not a problem there. This isn't eastern Wyoming or eastern Colorado. We have relativley small areas of private land here. I believe in landowner rights. We have great landowners in this state overall. A lot of our tag money goes to keeping access open to private land. If the majority of landowners do decide, which I don't think they will, to do what you mentioned with outfitters, then we'll croos that bridge when we come to it. There will be issues like these as long as there is game to hunt, that's why we stay engaged in the process and teach our children to. Donnie

It is absolutuely NOT a donation. It is a purchase. The is about keeping our public wildlife from becoming a commodity to be bought and sold to the highest bidder. If the funds are used soley for the purpose of wildlife conservation, then its arguable. The current auction and raffle tags are sufficient but if they provide a loophole for those motiveted by self interest to take tags from the general public then it might need to be closed and a subsitution put in place to raise the funds. A $5 habitat stamp would more than cover what the auction tags bring in. The whole point is that the funds from any tag sold outside of the draw should not be controled by a private entity. I think its a lost cause.

That's what I'm screaming... Very impressive guys. You got free air time... Hamberlin purchased 2 more lobbyists. I think we got the better deal.

Ok, pick the most unintelligent one-off quote and ingnore the good arguments. I went fishing an you bit. Now, let's really debate this. You base your whole argument on what one of your heros donates to wildlife condervation. But wait, if you expect something in return, you can't really call it a donation. Expos are nothing more than a used car tent sale. They exist only to feed themselves, the proof is in the numbers provided above. We as sportsmen are saying to you and your heros, we don't want your money... Not if it is going to be used to hold us hostage. This bill failed, this whole idea will fail. The sportsmen of have Arizona have proven time and again that we won't use our wildlife to pay ransom to the greedy. And yes, if you donate and eventually expect a return on your donation, you just entered to realm of the greedy. You have proven you want nothing more than to argue when you took my bait and quoted my bait post. Give up sir. You aren't gonna seel your kool-aid here.

No blinders on here pard and please don't assume to know who you are talking at. Been on a couple water projects myself.

The only problem I see with shutting the whole auction tag process is that it takes dollars from the one place that needs it most right now, Arizona game and fish. There are other ways to generate the money and if there was a gauranteed way to do it... I would be for it. Like krp said, I'll never buy an auction tag so I'm not missing anything.

Well, I can tell you, if I had 30k to spend on a tag, I personally wouldn't spend it on a shot at a tag, I'm gonna spend it on a tag. There's always the off chance that I dropped 30k for nothing. The true issue is who is in control of the money generated, not auction tags themselves. If Game and Fish wanted to set aside 350 tags for auction and receive the money generated you'd hear a lot less noise about it. You'd still hear noise but not to this extent. Wildlife is just one of those things where capitolism doesn't seem to work. Don Peay said wildlife belonging to the public is socialism... Ok fine, it is. The draw is one of last level playing feilds in this country and it should stay that way.

I don't think anyone disagrees with what you are saying but if private entities want to use a good example of what auction tags can do as a loophole to further their own agenda and distribute the money as they see fit, I don't think shutting the loophole completely is a bad idea. Its very unfortunate that we should even need to entertain the idea. What truly NEEDS to happen is average hunters need to step up and contribute to conservation in a real way so that AZSFW can't use it as an excuse to take tags away.

I personally don't feel any envy for the wealthy but I also don't subscribe to the "kings deer" wildlife model. Fair is fair is fair and you shouldn't have a leg up on anyone just because you can afford to. That's not what hunting or wildlife conservation should be about. You have lots of money? Great! Get in line like everyone else.

Interesting thought.. Very good point. I'm gonna take some time and consider that myself.

I know, I'm munching on a nice young unit 10 bull. That was a great hunt.

Its all fuzzy math honestly and nothing more than estimates. The whole premise is based on sales not conservation. Like I said above, what is the main purpose of an expo? To sell booths and make money. The Utah group has never accounted for where all the money generated from their expo went, why will this be any different? We have all been sold on big horns making the better hunter. So... Guys spend gobs of money on gizmos and gadgets and ozone machines and camo and, and and.... For what? To kill the biggest animal. Well, this just falls right in line with that sales pitch. I cannot fathom why anyone would spend $220,000 for a flippin deer tag. Yeah the money goes to a good cause.. Blah blah blah... Its still 220k! How many pigmy's would that feed? All jokes aside... Where has the soul of the hunt gone? What happened to being thrilled with a 4 point buck. Now its "well, its a 220" buck buts its only a mainframe 170" buck". What? What have we allowed ourselves to be turned into? That is not what hunting should be about. Guess the score on this buck!!! To heck with the score, tell me about the hunt and how good he tasted!

Thanks man. I saw that post. I'm AZWALKER on MM.