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Everything posted by donniedent
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Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I was at todays meeting. The main areas of focus were on changes in the deer recomendations and lion recomendations. As far as the deer recomendations are concerned much of the focus was of course on the Kiabab. The department recommended raising junior doe tags and if I remember correctly they were actually lowered. Sorry, can't remember the exact number. Another area of focus was on 3a/3c. They will now be managed as an alternative management area. The dept recommended 200 general tags, 125 archery tags and 25 junior tags. John from the ADA got up and spoke concerning the junior tags I believe in both the Kiabab and 3a/3c and attempted to address the late rifle hunts that were recommended. There was dialog between John and 2 of the commissioners. It was fairly evident that there is some residule feelings about the house bill. I cannot remember his name but the president of the ABA got up and spoke concerning the archery tag numbers in 3a/3c. He made a very effective argument concerning the 125 archery tags the dept recommended. He had the commission on his side on that topic and they riased the number of archery tags above the depts recommendation. I think they raised it to 200 tags for archery. The lion issue was another topic that got extra focus. There was the ASU professor that got up and spoke and a vetrenarian from Rio Verde. The first comments were from Curt Steinke. He made an excellent arguement in favor of keeping the multiple bag limit in Araviapa Canyon. Chad Jones also made some great comments. One that caught my ear was his comment that the ADBSS was glad to see the MBL lifted in 6a south because lion objectives had been reached and I recall Norm Freeman thanking him and congratulating him on his comments about that. I actually got to meet a few of the guys from ADBSS. Very down to earth guys and I was well recieved. We spoke a little about the little group I'm involved in and I recieved some excellent advice. Good group of guys. As far as the opposition goes... of course they are misled and tend to speak from an emotional standpoint. The vet from Rio Verde made the comment that even though he does not hunt, he still buys a hunting license so that he can support wildlife. Agree with him or not but that shows me he does care about wildlife and though his opinion differs from ours on predator management, he at least stepped up and let his voice be heard. My overall opinion is that it was an interesting meeting. Brian Wakeling did well ansewering all the questions the commission had. They are deffinately a more conservative commission than we've had in the recent past. I will say this though. I was fairly concerned about the lack of attendance by the general public. Say what you will about BPJ but at least he was there. Say what you will about the ASU guy and the Vet... but again... at least they were there. I find it more than slightly disturbing that on the heels of the HB2072 and all the attention it recieved that more people have yet to learn that if you don't attend meetings and make your voice heard... others WILL speak for you. And they may say things you don't like! How can you sit and complain about HB2072 or the deer herds or predators or any other hot topic if you are not involved in the comment process? The dept basically begs us to be involved. The orgs beg us for support and fianancial help. It takes HB2072 to get people up out of their coffins and talking but as soon as things die down a bit, they lay right back down. I'm honsetly very discouraged at this point. I expected a much bigger turn out. On a personal level, I am going to step back and re-think things a bit. There are a few of us that have gotten together to try and create an new org in hopes that the average joe will be better represtented and some focus can be shown to the desert deer herds. This was a hot topic off season and it isn't over yet with this new problem coming up on the Kiabab. If these issues don't get the average joes off their butt and involved in the comment process what good would an org that is supposed to represent them do? Many of us sit and voice negative opinions about various orgs. I am guilty of that myself. In retrospect, that was a mistake. I think I will keep my opinons to myself concerning the inner workings and leadership of orgs I am not a member of. Who am I to say who should be the president of an org I'm not a member of? If you don't like what an org does, join the org and move to make the changes you feel should be made. Every species specific org in this state was created to do good things for their respective species of focus. I don't think anyone can deny that the ADA, ADBSS, AES, or any other group was formed with the most honorable intentions. If groups make mistakes in agenda or leadership, it is the members obligation to correct them. The key word though is members! These are not public groups. Their leadership is not voted in by the general public. It takes membership and support of a particular group to have a say so in that group. It is easy for us to stand on the outside and make judgements but I don't believe many of us know the whole story. I challenge anyone that sees an org going the wrong direction to join that org and get involved in changing the orgs direction. Or... get some buddies together and start your own!!! Conservationists attempt conserve wildlife Conserve: to keep or protect from harm, decay, loss, etc. The anti's try to liberate wildlife Liberate: To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control. Hunters that don't do anything to conserve wildlife and only hunt are consumers Consume: To expend; use up Which one are you? Donnie Lee 602-677-4537 -
Well, I actually traded emails with a guy in the know at the dept and his explanation was great. I will paraphrase: They have new hunt guidelines and have to now manage for higher buck/doe ratios. All of those units lost 75 tags in earlier hunts but 25 of those 75 were moved to a late hunt. All the areas recomended for late hunts have low success on the general hunts but have stable or increasing herd numbers. They are still cutting 50 or so tags per unit to try and start to manage for higher buck/doe ratios. And its looking like it will be a 10 day hunt. In reference to point restrictions.... they simply do not work. It has been proven in study after study and by many states that point restrictions don't put older age class deer on the ground. We want more mature bucks but we also want to target them? You'll end up with alot of poaching. I dream of the prospect of actually hunting during the rut with a rifle. I love the idea of hunting the rut but I was more concerned with what it would do to the herds. Herd health and numbers is by far my biggest concern, not whether I get to hunt during the rut. But..... I think game and fish did make a good call. I didn't know they were dropping at least 50 tags per unit and I will be applying for one of those late hunts!!!!!
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Obeservations... and my conclusion
donniedent posted a topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
In an effort to try and find the roots of certain attitudes in our hunting culture, I have taken time and thought about things a little. We are seeing two opposing forces at work these days to try and gain control of public lands and the uses of those public lands. Because I am a hunter, I look at things from this side of the fence. When I look at the "anti's" I see a generation of old hippie's trying to keep some percieved "protest" alive. Save the whales, save the spotted owl, save the planet... The list goes on. At its heart, its emotionally driven and therefore truly selfish in nature. There's is little logic behind it until you realize its true face and the fact that its all about control. People, by nature, want to be in control of their surroundings. It makes them feel safe. This generation of activists has nearly aborted this country. Roe v. Wade on a national scale. But... They have a counterpart. We have a generation amongst us that is no less self motivated. If we look at the culture of hunting, its has become tainted by the same self interested, self motivated "activism". In the name of conservation, the hippie counterparts have run our culture into the ground. Now, many would claim great accomplishments in conservation but ask yourself this, what was the motive? I think we are seeing the true motive now. That same generation that protested the Vietnam war has taken hunting somewhere it should have never gone. There is now a multi-million dollar industry we now call hunting. A heritage has now been twisted and perverted into a means of monetary gain. Now, I'm a capitolist at heart. The buting and selling of goods is part of what makes this country great but.. The buying and selling of a culture is something different altogether. Those that we now look to lead us in the fight have been found out. It was all about money the whole time. Or maybe, just maybe, intentions were true when the changing of the guard happened. Either way, its perverted. To the next generation of hunters (the young guys) I say this. Its time to step up. Its time to speak up. If you are tired of what you are seeing, don't stay home, don't keep your mouth shut. Its time for us thirty somethings to take the helm. Now, there are good people out there who are older than us and are doing what is right. Look for them, find them, learn from them. We need to right this course our culture is heading on. Go to meetings and get involved. We are the future of hunting, not the ones running things now. Take heed, there are som great people that are in positions of leadership. I could name names but most people know who they are. Now, if you find yourself offended by this post, take a long hard look at your true motives. If you find yourself in a postion to not want the younger generation involved, the writing is on the wall for you my friend. Step aside. Donnie Lee -
Obeservations... and my conclusion
donniedent replied to donniedent's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Look forward to meeting you too! -
national monument designation
donniedent replied to bonuspointjohn's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
John and Don are right. It cannot be assumed that everyone within the department likes hunting. The USFWS is lousy with non-hunters and to assume that everyone working for our fine department is pro-hunting would be dangerous. But, thats not to say that we don't have a great dept. We just need to be aware of who we are up against. Knowledge and truth is power. The problem is we feel decieved, plain and simple. Yes it would be wonderful to be a united front but its fairly easy to feel set up by all of this. I blame all parties invovled. I blame AZSFW for trying to slip legislation thru, I blame certain orgs for not taking a solid stand and riding the fence but most of all I blame the legions of apethetic hunters who have sat back and let things happen around them (to include me). The outlook is bleak unless we get more hunters involved in the process. I have been in a debate of sorts on another site with a few that are ready to chop heads off because the computer system was slow when trying to retrieve draw results. Makes me want to puke and really puts into perspective what kind of self centered people we have in our ranks. The hunting community needs an enema! -
Obeservations... and my conclusion
donniedent replied to donniedent's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Coach, its a far cry between making a living thru wildlife and exploting wildlife for personal gain. Nobody can deny that some seek to exploit wildlife for personal gain. I absolutely agree with getting youth involved with hunting. That is essential. But, we cannot leave a gap in leadership either. There are plenty of elder statesman so to speak that have been at this a very long time and are looking to pass the torch. Who's going to step up? My generation tends to be apethetic when It comes to taking charge and making things happen. Partly because of our simple apathy towards things and because a lot of us have been ignored. My original post was a tad combative but it was a simple design on my part to hopefully create a fire. Whether we are ignored or simply apethetic matters not, what matters is we aren't stepping up. If you are reading this and you aren't involved... Get involved! Age doesn't matter either. I refer to my age group because that's who I relate to. We are looking at a huge generational gap coming very soon. If we don't step up and get involved who will? We are either going to skip a generation entirely or end up with a bunch of tired 80 year old that say screw it at let it die. Step up guys because the hippies are trainer their troops. -
My kids will be in that class, I promise you that! Oh and Obama isn't the anti-christ... He's not nearly intelligent enough. The guy couldn't get the "runs" without a telepromter telling him when to squeeze his butt cheeks, let alone run a country or the world.
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national monument designation
donniedent replied to bonuspointjohn's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Excellent post! Thanks for shedding a different light on this for us. That leads to some very interesting thoughts on this troop rally and how much truth about this situation is being put out there. Is there an attempt to ingratiate to the masses by those that supported a certain bill? Or maybe I need to get a clue. -
national monument designation
donniedent replied to bonuspointjohn's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
A person in a position of leadership, whether appointed or seen a such by others needs to always be mindful of their words. You always need to strive not to alienate an idividual. There is a way no call a person out without belittling them. As soon as personal attack is included in a rebuttle, the true point is lost. Donnie Lee 602.677.4537 -
national monument designation
donniedent replied to bonuspointjohn's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Take it easy there Don. I understand what the guy is saying. We just had a "blowout" with people we thought were on our side and they did create alot of mistrust. Now the same folks want us to trust them. Now, this whole deal is no laughing matter and its very real but.... we didn't cause this mistrust! It is ironic that this comes on the heals of a tag grab mess and you cannot expect that we will just automatically throw our trust behind some that were trying to take tags away for private gain. "Geez guy, get a life"??? Not cool man! Donnie Lee -
My brother in law was born and raised on the south island, I'll gice him a buzz for you. What are your plans? What island are you going to?
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Not quite sure why they would do that. I think maybe its because the success is so low. 17a and b on that recomendation as well. The goofy thing is that they recomended 17a open up for dec archery as well. That means there will be rifle hunters and archery hunters in there at the same time. That makes zero sense to me. Deer numbers are down all over the state, they continue to spend tons of money on the kiabab and the strip, I just don't get it sometimes. I hope everyone takes a serious look at our new org because we want to see the deer herds EVERYWHERE in az get the attention they deserve. These old squeeky wheel orgs that only care about certain areas need to stop being oiled!
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We have the second half of the 442 catchment project coming up on April 28th. We are looking for 20 people to show. Not sure what the count is but I think its around 10. For all you future SWSA members, this is our first water project so let's make it out and show game and fish we are for real. I know this is the political forum but I lost my map... Hee hee hee. I will post a map to the site ASAP.
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Utah Deer Herd Numbers
donniedent replied to CEI's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Let me rephrase that. If deer numbers are down due to drought, the carry capacity is lowered and coyotes are taking fawns that would already die... Compensatory mortality. Only where predation is an issue is it additive mortality. Carrying capacity is nearly impossible to asertain. If there isn't a drought or bad winter kill, it can be over harvest, disease, range loss or predation. Mule deer management is a tough buisness. There are many factors that contribute to the situation. To say it just predators or just drought is way to elementary. That's why our own dept seems to move so slow. It takes time to figure out why the herd numbers are dropping. Lower tag numbers doesn't do a whole lot but put more bucks on the ground, it does not effect total herd numbers. -
Utah Deer Herd Numbers
donniedent replied to CEI's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
"Coyote predation has been implicated as a significant cause of mortality in most mule deer studies that were based on either radiotelemetry or experimental manipulation of predator populations where predation was thought to be a problem." That was taken directly out of one of the studies on mule deer predation on muledeerworkinggroup.com and so was this... "No studies have implicated predation by mountain lions as a major mortality factor of neonatal fawns, but this may be because this aspect has not been studied with radiotelemetry. However, mountain lions have been implicated as major predators of adult deer." Heres how I see it. In reading these studies I have come to learn that if an area is at carrying capacity for deer, predators take deer that would die anyway. If that area is below carrying capacity because of drought, predation does affect mule deer numbers. If Utah is not in a drought situation and mortality is up for a different reason ie, range loss, over hunting.... taking predators won't do a dang thing!!! If they are down because of predators, then so be it but that is a tough one to prove. -
Pretty ballsy. I don't know, they had everything set up for the kill and if you ask me, the big final solidifying move was a relative disaster. They did it all completely wrong. If I was running that deal I would have done it completely different. They aren't going to be able to slip anything thru now, too many people watching.
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Commission Appointment Board
donniedent replied to SpeedGoat's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Ahhh. That's a little tougher. -
Commission Appointment Board
donniedent replied to SpeedGoat's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Maybe it should proportional to org size and demographics, there would be four regular joes if that were the case. This idea that just because you are an org for 5 years being a qualifying thing is a joke. This whole process needs to do toward the democratic side. Think how involved the majority could get if someone had to actually get their votes. -
I think the answer is in the question brother. AZSFW needs to go away. Its already been compromised and corrupted. It will never regain the trust of sportsman. Once you lose that, you might as well close up shop.
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Commission Appointment Board
donniedent replied to SpeedGoat's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Is the commission appointment board a dept rule or a law? Reason I ask is because I think we need to attempt to go back and undo some of the crap AZSFW has done to stay in power. We have a great commission and if this is a rule, we can discuss removing it or rewriteing it. -
Everybody that is follwing the AZSFW story NEEDS to go to this link and read what game and fish has to say about AZSFW's claims. Thanks to Videoshot for spotting this and posting it on TAH. Hers the link. http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/NewsMedia/Important-information-for-sportsmen-and-other-wildlife-enthusiasts-Part-1.shtml There is no substitute for truth.
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AZSFW Spending/Projects
donniedent replied to Zim's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Wow, hung up on her. Didn't expect that at all. But... Losers hate giving interveiws. There is a movement afoot, no doubt about that. I hope everyone gets in the habit of working with game and fish. We have a fantastic commission and some fine fine people in the dept. Remember, build relationships in the dept! They will be around a lot longer that individuals on the commission and if you can agree with the dept on an issue and it has to go be fore the commission, it will get done. If you are in opposition with the dept and you go to the commission with an issue, you might get your wishes but you burned a bridge with the dept. Please guys, as you move forward in whatever group you choose or on your own, go to meetings and work with the dept first! -
AZGFD responds to AZSFW data
donniedent replied to donniedent's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I will say this. In forming our new group we have spoken with different people and Game and Fish and they welcomed us with open arms. The best approach with them is a willingness to listen. They have a wealth of knowledge and want us to be informed. They may seem slow to respond to changes sometimes but it is because they are very methodical in their work. They don't like making drastic changes without the data to support it. The more we learn their process, the more we will understand them and be able to have a good working relationship with them. -
AZGFD responds to AZSFW data
donniedent replied to donniedent's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Sorry you might need this link: http://muledeerworkinggroup.com/index_files/Page1525.htm -
AZGFD responds to AZSFW data
donniedent replied to donniedent's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I'm not sure where to find the ratio's but I do know the commission voted to adopt the new ones at their meeting in Kingman. If you go to this link you can read the different studies done. I have the forth one down and its a good read. Brian Wakeling told us about this website. Loads of knowledge! Check out the one on ecoregions.