biscuits

OK, now this is turning into somethimg more than it should have because of some obvious emotions in an emotional hobby. I was questioning some scoring based on some photos forwarded to me from a friend. Somehow It got turned into much more than that. It was not my intention. Look we all know people who know people. I am not good friends with any of these guys being spoken of (I try to stay out of the outfitting stuff because of this kind of thing) but I have good friends who are good friends with each of these outfitters being soken of. From their opinions they are all good guys and obviously they all know how to hunt. It was unfortunate that the individuals are starting to get dragged into it. I guess Mossback made the mistake in chiming in on the matter after the fact on another matter (killing top end bulls) but that is their doing not mine. And now wetmule is draggin in people that I am not even friends of a friend with. Yes, I have always been one to think that business could be seperated from personal matters and opinions could be shared. I work in a building with alot of individuals who hunt also and we argue not only on business but hunting also but we still respect each other as individuals. And I like objective forums. I now understand not all individuals are like that. I can see where I underestimated the dynamics here and for that I am sorry. I am not sorry for questioning the scores because we all do it as admitted by coues n sheep and Mullins themselves. My post was a reaction to not believing the score when I was told by my buddy which bull it was and I pulled the pics up and remembering the score on the velvet bull. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to post pics. What's up with that anyways. I am sorry to Mullins if their personal feelings were hurt or their integrity felt attacked after all the passionate posts were made back and forth (not sorry for questioning the score cause that would be dishonest cause don't feel did anything wrong there). Also applogize to Mossback for them getting dragged into this with me (although I guess you guys kinda made it easy for them to do that with the top end killing posts). I taught my kids when they were younger that you can't control how people treat you or what circumstances you will encounter but you can control how you react to them. I know not all individuals believe this though, just my personal philosophy. I think Jim himself showed understood that and showed it here. Some are more passionate and reactive. To each their own. If the moderator wants to delete this and start over over just delete my posts or leave them I don't mind. Sorry for disrupting the synergy. I will leave you guys to it. Happy Hunting. I know most of you will still feel protective here and not accept this and carry on and that is your perogative but I think that would be a disservice to everyone involved at this point.

Mike, I understand your explanation on the the protective responses. If you reread my posts after it was stated that it was measured by a master sorer that I said that was in my opinion a poor reflection on the measurer. I did not say Jim was lying about it or calling him a liar. I have been reading posts on here enough to know that these same principles you guys speak of are not always followed. It is real easy to follow these principles (or appear to follow them) when in the presence of a group of like minds or "family". It is harder to say what you feel even when in the minority in my opinion. that is just my belief. Ok for you guys to disagree. Obviously I knew the "demons of heck" were going to rain down on me. Just like Jim knew people were gonna question the score, heck he didn't even believe it which is why he took it to a scorer like was mentioned. So why are you guys so upset when someone does what was anticipated. This whole thing went south when these supposed "high quality" brotheren started jumping in with so much passion and making assumptions. But I guess that's what happens with family. I didn't intend to attack the guy, which I don't feel I did, just attack the score, which is proven had a precedence. Like I said wasn't the first won't be the last that a score or scores was questioned and it is comical that you guys act like you don't do it as well. It is a business based on scores. Everyone knows it and everyone accepts it. I like how Jim handled his business in this respect (he obviously knows this). Seriously, this was spiraled into an attack on the outfitter's integrity by the "family members". All it was originally was an attack on the scores. That happens to everybody, not just outfitters. Grow some skin. This isn't the only time I have seen a response like this to questioning scores but definitely the most aggressive, boy you guys really are united strong. Thundercats, Thundercats..hoh!!!!!!!

Ok I am sorry for breaking the CW forum rules. I missed the rule when I signed up that said do not call into question the practices of not only any sponsor of the site but also any of the Godfathers patrolling its forums! Look you guys are so blindsided by subjectivity its crazy. Hey I have friends to but I don't lie to them when I know otherwise just cause they are my friends. When they are complaining about something in their life and they are in the wrong in my opinion, I tell them I think they are wrong. Maybe I don't have as many friends or "acquaintances" for living my life that way but at least they know where I stand and hopefully, if its true, they make better decisions because of it. Look, I wasn't calling into question Mullins personal character. If I was I would understand jumping down my throte, being he's a friend. I was calling into question an aspect of his business. He is in business, he chose the profession, he obviously is a big boy. I appreciate and respect his response (although I know u guys will say he could give a rats behind if he has my respect, blah, blah, bah, bah). Its funny cause He himself said that the velvet bull was NOT 430 as posted and everyone on here ran with cause everyone was thinking it but didn't have the respect for him enough to say that score may be off base. Heaven for bid if you did that. And if he says in admission under these conditions that it may be 10-15" smaller than advertised then its probably more like 25" less. That's a big difference. But he spoke about it, as no one did, so kudos to him. He sounds like a stand up guy like you guys are saying. Obviously I didn't have to put my hands on the bull to see that like you suggest, Sniper. So forgive me if I don't follow the same philosophy as , "if Jimmy says that bull scores 445 then I believe him". It was proven not to be true once it looked that way again and I questioned it, sorry for offending anyone. I didn't realize this was a "Good ol' Boys" network when I posted. I won't make that mistake again.

what the.....i posted some pics that I got forwarded from a friend cause everyone wanted to see some pics that supposedly were of the 445. I said then and stick to it that it couldn't be this bull. I am all about some clown and his clone followers (coues n sheep) rippin on another outfitter all because I posted some forwarded photos. I am all about business conducting solid, sound business. Our economy has gotten to where it is today because of irresponsible business practices. It has nothing personal about a certain outfitter, but when I see some clones on here blowing sunshine about some sponsor of the site who I see is doing some false advertising I feel it is ok to call that out. I have lots of friends who hunt and they overemphasize sometimes.......I call them out when the score isn't what they say....its irresponsible this day and age. Even more so when someone makes money from it. This is an overflow from the bull a couple years back where the named outfitter shot a velvet bull and posted a thread about some 430" typical......I didn't believe it then and I have yet to see a score sheet on that bull, so forgive me for not believing you on this. Do you clones want to provide that for me? If Discount Tires says they have some 20" tires for my truck and they end up being 18"...I'm pissed. Now if Discount Tire was your buddies in business you would defend them and say, "hey it's all about the person buying the tire, he loves the tire, why u have to diminish the buy of the tire, Discount works hard to sell their tires, they are a reputable business, plus if you measure the tire this way you will come up with 20". " How bout be real and then your will have some credibility. Now on this site you can't bring up concerns like that. How come on other public forums this can happen but not hear with the "Watch Dogs" . Feel free to dispel my opinion by providing facts....then I will accept it. Don't sink so low as to attack people and then say it wasn't an attack (it was a personal attack on everyone who disagreed with you). That was an unwarranted, irresponsible attack. And yes that was an attack back at you Coues n Sheep.

i agree on a universal scoring system. Guess never happen based on history of B and C. Sorry again if I came across ruff. I did wake up with that stomach flu thing today! Congrats to hunter and outfitter although we will still have to agree to disagree on the score..........that is more of a reflection on the measurer not the guides. Would like to see some final scores after the official scorings on a lot of animals posted up on internet just for some checks and balances and would give some validity to the whole deal. I am just a real stickler for details, sorry. In the end, doesn't really matter though. I need some TUMS!

OK guys, I will tone it done, sorry. Obviously, have an outfitter (not Mullins directly) bone to pick some times. Actually its a general public bone to pick not just outfitters, LOL. I have seen so many things get portrayed one way in the public and then things not really be what they are.........all for the benefit of others. You watch the news and see how some politician who is the most humble honest guy out there get caught for soliciting sex. i will take your word for it that these guys are good, hard working, honest guys and probably deserve success. But in my humble opinion, take it or leave it, it is kind of deceiving to throw out an SCI score in this situation. I think if it was another outfitter or especially "Joe Blow" hunter I would not be the only one saying this so bluntly. At least admit there is a bias here. Having said that, I will not be surprised when (if) that bull is officially scored that he does not even hit the 435" mark. And if he hits 435" its because of the generous credits that are possible through SCI. Regardless, like I said I know there had to be a few archers who would of crapped their pants to shoot this bull and were looking forward to it. He is a trophy bull. Congrats to the hunter.

That is the beauty of SCI, you can take some pretty liberal assumptions and measurements. Personally I like the SCI system because it rewards growth but in a case like this that bull doesn't deserve a 53" spread just because it has a tweeked out right beem. In my humble opinion, that score doesn't accurately represent that bull.........if it did then everyone wouldn't be second guessing it. We have all seen the SCI scores that accurately represent a bull because there are no deductions accounted for but the growth and measurements are just more of a "Gross B and C" score and we all relate with that. Lets stick with even gross B and C scores. I get tired of people picking and choosing on here what they want to glorify or not glorify. Lets be real. Is this common practice for outfitters? Now granted it seems most advertise in gross scores but sci?

elki, Thanks for pointing out the sci score thing cause now i have a REALLY hard time getting 445. That makes it even simpler to score. Seems like I'm not the only one, the outfitters themselves, who have a HARD time getting a 400" frame out of that bull and then I have a hard time getting 40" of extras as well. I was assuming the extras some how came to more than 45" to make up for the lack of 400" frame. But hey, if they had an "official SCI master measurer" score it than it must be so and we are all duped! No skin off my back just making an observation. I guess killing that bull is an accomplishment, he looked real hard to find. On a side note, was that raffle bull from two years ago in velvet ever taken to a "official SCI master measurer". I seem to remember a score of 430 being thrown around. I would be curious to see an "official" SCI score sheet on that one as well. But hey, I can just play house and blow sunshine so everyone is happy in their little world to. SCRhunter or whatever your name was, like I said they were forwarded to me by a friend. What are you Mossback or something and gonna get mad at me to?

From everything I can gather from different people is that it was the 8 X 9 not typical with the kickers in 9. If it is the same bull then a lot of people knew about this bull. Apparently, he was in a pretty easy place to kill. Having said that, I don't think it is that bull because I sure don't get 445. This kicker bull is big but 445? Anyways, hope it isn't him cause there will be a lot of unhappy archery hunters if it was. Guess there were lots of trail cameras catching his picture! I was forwarded these pics from a friend a couple months ago. He was all excited cause his brother has an archery tag in 9 this year and he knew where this drinker was. The last pics look like video stills. Anyone know if this is the bull?