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i don't think anybody says it was behind a fence. but there a lotta rumors that it was released or escaped, whatever, from a farm, prior. there are plenty of ways to either prove or dispell the rumors, if anyone should decide to want to do it. the biggest problem folks have with this is the fiasco that surrounded the entire deal. Lark.

if you got the late dec. hunt i have some advice. wear your longjohns. it's gonna be cold. there are bunches of whitetail in 27, and some big ones. Lark.

amen. Lark.

this past year has been exceptional for elk horns. look at all the big bulls killed in Az. i've seen photos of half a dozen 400+ bulls this year. i don't buy for a minute that they were doing something to make this elk big. at least while he was in the field. but there is a lot of rumor about it escaping from a elk farm. if they have antlers from last year, they could do the dna deal. i am just really tired of the negative impace these auction tags have had the past couple years. the subdivision bull in Az. and now this joke of a mess in utah. it just doesn't seem "ok" to me to flood the woods with folks to find one animal for some rich guy. ain't that sorta the way the british snuf sniffers useta hunt tigers? if the raffle tags bring in more money than the auction tag, then auction off all of em and let us poor guys have a better chance. if the money is still going in the till, why reserve the best tags in the country for millionaires only? a few millionaires don't contribute 1/1000 of what us regular guys do, when it comes to the overall take for tags and licenses. why do they automatically get the tags? they seem to really divide hunters and it gives anti's a lot of ammo to shoot at us. Lark.

this is big bull. whether it is a free ranging bull or a high fence plant, remains to be decided. and whether it's ok to use an army of guys to find it, well that's a matter of opinion too. after all the junk that went on in the unit where this took place, well it really gives a lot of folks a black eye, and really gives hunting in general a kick in the groin. there were knifed tires, death threats, and all kindsa other presumed sabotage associated with this deal. there are gonna be hard feelings all over the place, forever, over this deal. no matter how it turns out, there will always be a controversy surrounding it. if folks have the money, time, and don't care about what really are negative things involved in this type of pursuit, then have at it, i guess. this reminds me a lot of the guy in Az. last year who waited until the last few days of a year long season and shot a bull in the subdivision. who's to say he was wrong? he was convicted of something, seems like pretty minor, but if he's ok with it, then i guess it's ok. but there were so many other ways to accomplish his goal that wouldn't have caused any problems, i don't see why they allowed things to go the way they did. and it did some real harm to the perception of hunting. and i know this, if you're going to be so close to the law that it takes a tape measure to determine if you're legal or not you oughta think about it awhile longer. same here. not that any laws were broken, but there has been a lot of damage done to the perception of hunting. it is going to give a lot of ammo to anti's and it is going to cause a lot of animosity within the hunting community because of folks being for it and against it. personally, i don't see where the amount of money that goes into hunting budgets from these type of tags is enough to cover the cost of the negative perception. but that's my opinion. a big ol' bull that deserves to be remembered better, is always going to have a controversy around it. same with the shipsey bull. monster bull. deserves to be in b&c for sure, but isn't. i mean at least the elk oughta be recognized. if the guys in the club don't like shipsey, at least recognize the elk. it wasn't poached. from what i remember it wasn't allowed because either his mother or wife or girlfriend, some female, gave him the tag as a gift and their name was on it and not his. the rez didn't care and it was legal per them. that's how i remember it went down. could be wrong, but i remember reading something about that. the b&c was not about to let him enter it for other reasons, but i'm pretty sure that was the excuse they used. what we all need to think about is what we wouild do in the same situation. i guess i'm a little different, but if i had a tag like that, last thing i'd want was a buncha folks with me. me and my boys are enough for me and i think between us we could come up with a decent animal to shoot. o' 'course it would be nice to have a buncha guys to help pack it to the road. but then, again, i have a mule. Lark. p.s. does anyone know how much $$$ was brought in by the raffle tags, as compared to the auction tags? maybe they oughta just raffle all these kinda tags and not have an auction. the auction automatically excludes anyone who isn't extemely wealthy, and i think this is where most of the hard feelings come from.

don't know how old he is, but he is big. Lark.

dang sure a good thing they passed the bailout. imagine where we'd be. wait, the only up day we've had in awhile was the day after they voted the bailout down? that don't make sense. i thought the gov't was our only savior in times of crisis and that hard work and ingenuity were way overated? yep, it's gonna a long road. glad i bought on a down day and sold the next day, last week. gonna be the last time a guy can make much on this market for awhile. all the "bailout" will do for awhile is keep some outfits from closing their doors and filing bankrupcy. the only thing that will fix the market is hard work and ingenuity by the folks that actually make the economy work. if obama gets elected, you can forget that, because he's gonna "regulate" the economy to death. Lark.

that's a nice lion in the photo, but i'd guess it more like 150. no way it is even close to 200. lions just ain't that big of an animal. look at it compared to the guy holding it. i kinda doubt if he weighs 250. most lions are 125 lbs or less. a tom that gets to live a long time can get to over 200 on occasion. me and my oldest boy killed one about 20 years ago that was 8'11". his forearms were bigger than my thighs. he scores well over 15. i'd guess him at maybe 165-175. i figured that when he was younger he might have been a 200+ pounder. he was the oldest, most beat up thing i ever saw. starting to get poor. ears looked like tassles. one nostril had grown shut from a huge scar through it. this lion in the photos doesn't look to be real old. he has a good head on him, but his torso looks to be quite short. i don't think he's a 7 footer. a really big lion will have front paws quite a bit wider than that also. and i'm not running him down, he's a dang nice lion. really pretty head. i'da shot him and been proud of it. once we killed a cattle killer in new mex and took a game warden back to it the next day. he took a scale and it weighed 210 lbs. not a real long lion, a little over 7'. he kinda had a short tail, but he was built like a jag. tremendously thick. meanest lion i ever saw. killed 2 of our dogs, tore 2 others up so bad we had to pack em out on the saddles with us and tossed 2 others off in a crack in the cliff that we had a heck of time fishin' out. ooooooooo. my old addiction is startin' to come back over me. i gotta shut up or i'll have me some more pups by nightfall. Lark.

there is so much rumor and inuendo about this bull that i kinda doubt if it ever gets recgonized. wasn't there another post on here about it a couple days ago? did it get nuked? Lark.

looks like a buncha guys on a hill above a nudist colony.............Lark.

ia it a pre-64 model 70 or a model 94? i don't recall they made a model 70 in .30/30. if they did, it's worth a bunch. i know they made the model 54 in .30/30. it was the predeccesor to the model 70. if it's a model 94 it depends on how old it is, what model it is and the condition. older is worth more. long barrels, short barrels, saddle rinds, engraving etc. all add to the value. if it's say a 94 made in the 50's in good condition, i'd say 5-600 bucks. right after they quit making the 94, anything was worth $800. they've gone down a little now, but are still worth some money. winchester made so many variations of things that you'd need a real ive appraiser if it has anything extra on it. Lark.

the paper this morning said that the modified version being sent down from the senate has a buncha tax breaks in it and removes some of the pork. it also said that a lotta democrats were mad about the tax breaks because they said it would affect the deficit. which it will, it'll make it go down. so i guess maybe now even more of em won't vote for it. with these incentives and the fact that some guys got to flex their muscles a little and improve their electability by voting no on the last one, i expect it to pass soon. depends on what kinda pork the house tries to attach to it too. did anybody make a bunch in the market yesterday? 10 grand woulda made 500 bucks just yesterday. it's down a little this morning. one thing i'll never understand about this stuff, is here we are in the middle of what they say is maybe the worst financial crisis in American history, and the dollar the rippin' the pound, the yen and "euro" a new one. it went down a small fraction yesterday, but it's been real high lately. 'course, i have no idea what all that means, but it seems like it'd be down, don't it? oh well, interesting times. give yer kids a lesson in finance right now. like, save yer money. Lark.

only time i shoot a half inch group is when i shoot a .50 caliber one time. Lark.

hear you go again on the personall stuff. i've lost touch with reality because i know how the gov't is supposed to work? but you are in tune with it because you refuse to accept the truth? it must really be cool to be you. always right. and when you're not, well, you're always right then too. again, if every democrat woulda voted for it, it woulda passed. pelosi couldn't even deliver her own party. she's a joke. the American voters, no matter what party, don't want this bill and politicians have this bad habit of listening to them when they are up for election. and no matter what kinda influence bush had on it, it can not be his bill. even if he did send his democrat cabinet member to front for him. the president cannot introduce legislation. he is the executive branch of the gov't and the 3 branches can't interfere with each other until the bills are passed. then the veto or appeals in court or the override by congess can take place. dang, i thought i was a just an average student. but every day somebody convinces me that i must be a genius. and it amazes me how brave the internet allows some folks to be. these are hard times. everywhere. if you think America is in a bad place, every other country in the world is shakin' in their boots right now because they rely on us for everything. well, except russia. they're used to only a few folks havin' money. or even toilet paper. get parallel to what is going on and pay very close attention to it. and don't believe anything any politician or newscaster says. study it and figure out what is true and what isn't. it ain't that hard. Lark.

i've been around a lotta lions. very few make it to 200 lbs. biggest one i ever saw weighed was 210. most of the ones you see that folks claim are 200 pounders are probably more like 150. when a 200 pound man is holding a lion up in a bear hug and he's bigger than the lion, it ain't a 200 pounder. jag's don't even get to 500 lbs. i agree with the 400 pounds of BS. Lark.

and pelosi was supposed to deliver the votes, from a dem congress that has enough of a majority that it didn't need even one republican vote to pass, and she couldn't get it done. and now her and barney boy and hairy and the media wanna blame it on republicans? i dont' get it. say what you want, but this was her baby and she dropped it on it's head. there ain't anyway that hairy coulda delivered the senate anyway. it took over 10 years to get here. there ain't anyway with all the morons in dc that they can come up with a fix in a week. blame the republicans all you want, but they were powerless to influence this bill, when it came to the vote. too many dem's were scared of not getting re-elected and rolled on pelosi and her croneys to save their necks. and again, bush can apply all the heat he wants, but nothing can be "his" bill. it ain't the way it works. Lark.

jamaro, ya need to go back and read some more on how washington works. the "ONLY" people who can initiate a plan that includes funding, is the congress. bush can't do it. he can't introduce anything. he can advise and coerce and twist arms or whatever and he can either sign a bill or veto it. congress are the only people who can put it up for a vote. then it goes to the senate, if it passes, and they can either vote it down or up or add pork to it or send it back to the house or whatever. the senate can also intitiate a bill and send it down to the house and then they can either pass it, not pass it, add pork, etc. that's how congress works. it was pelosi's responsibility to get it passed, and she had enough dumbocrats to pass it and couldn't even get that done. couldn't even get her croneys to go along with her. heck, 12 of barney frank's dumbocrat committiee members didn't even vote for it. pelosi and read are so weak and ineffective that it's a joke. "NOHING" can be bush's bill. it is against the way DC is set up to work. all he can do is sign it or veto it. the reason this didn't pass is because pelosi is an absolute joke as a legislator and even it did pass the house the senate woulda shot it down anyway because read has even smaller nuts than pelosi. once again, the president can not introduce legislation. he can influence it. but he can't introduce it. he can even get a croney to get it started. but he can't do it. this was pelosi and read's baby and they dropped it on it's head. and so far, it looks like it was a good thing. good night i get tired o' bein' a school teacher. Lark.

i heard that when they lit all the candles on his cake that the forest circus called in a slurry drop because they figgerd it was a forest fire. Happy Birthday and many more. Lark.

what don't you understand jamaro? they couldn't even get enough democrats to vote yea on this piece o' crap. the president can initiate anything he wants, but if it doesn't pass, it's worthless. from what i read, they didnt' need even one republican vote, and still couldn't get it to pass. sounds like some pretty weak leadership. that and 90% of the voting public is against it and the politicians are more worried about getting re-elected than anything else. the bill is nothing but a blank check with no limitations to be handed to the former ceo of goldman sachs to hand out as welfare to his billionaire buddys. the ones that caused this stupid assed situation to start with. i'm almost on the fence on this deal. something i very seldom can say. yeah, there needs to be some sort of bailout in order to keep a lotta small businesses from tankin', but at the same time i can also say screw all the idiots that bought into these stupid loans, on both sides, and not feel bad about it. the guys that loaned the money to folks that couldn't make the payments and the morons that took out the loans and mortgaged their homes 125% so they can buy boats and cars and take vacations and crap that they hafta pay on for 30 years and pay rolling interest on. this crap all started with clinton leaning on loan companys to let out bad loans so folks that couldn't afford it could buy houses. it jacked up the appraisal to phony amounts so folks sold and bought an even bigger house, that they still couldn't afford. heck, i refinanced a few years ago and they tried to loan me almost twice what my house is really worth now. if i'da fell for it, i'd be in the same boat. pelosi and read are about as dumb as anyone i've ever seen. i really don't think they have enough intelligence to write anything. watch em on tv. they are truly dumb, uninspired people. bush is wanting anything right now to keep the economy from tanking more. but everything anyone has tried to float so far is nothing but welfare for billionares and the voters know it and have raised heck with their congressmen about it. next to nothing will ever be seen by the folks that are gonna lose their homes in this mess. when the market hit 14000, i sold. i knew it wasn't going anywhere but down from there. i'm real glad i did. remember one thing, the stock market is not the economy. during all this crap the past few months, the economy has actually grown. the stock market hasn't, but the actual economy has. the stock market is guys trying to make fast money on the economy, without working. the economy is guys making money by working hard. by making a product to sell. the stock market is a parasitic organism that is attached to the economy. the economy doesn't rely on ready loans and fast credit. good business is built on assets and cash flow. the guys relying on all the easy credit and fast loans are the guys that are in trouble, because all the sudden they can't get the money to pay off last weeks loans. it's a pyramid scheme that has reached the top. this is gonna be interesting to watch, but i really don't think that this giant corporate welfare bailout deal is gonna help in the long run. it will just postpone things. but i do think that a guy is gonna be able to make a buncha easy money on this deal, if the billionare welfare plan ever passes. Lark.

c'mon guys, it's the nature o' the beast. when the beast gets too fat, ya gotta put him on a diet. greedy folks makin' crap loans are goin' down in flames. give it a couple more days or so to bottom out and then buy like a drunk deer hunter. especially after the morons in dc pass their little welfare plan. market will shoot up a couple thousand, you can cash it in and make a buncha money in just a little while. unless you have a buncha money in the market, which i don't right now, it ain't a big deal. if you do have a bunch in it, don't get spooked and sell now. heck no. it'll go back up sometime. after nurse nancy pelossi and hairy reed get there millionare bail out passed, then it's time for us normal folks to capitilize on it. and the cool thing about it is that a normal guy can capitilize on the crap loans and phony mortgages that them greedy assed "investment" bankers floated to folks who couldn't afford it. it's gonna cost us all a little in taxes, but what doesn't? so make some money on it. just watch it, wait for it to bottom out and for the welfare bill to pass and then buy back into something diversified for awhile. personally, i hope it goes down some more first. when the market is up is when it scares me. when it's down, the only way it can go is up. Lark.

you sure it's a pre 64? they made few in .300 win mag. sounds to me like one of the new ones they are fond of calling a pre-64 because they added a mauser extractor to em. if it's a pre 64 the serial number will be less than 500,000. Lark

dang, i had blackeyed peas and cabbage at mrs. white's the other day. i coulda got life for that. it's a natural body function. and he was drunk. happens all the time. Lark. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/200...0080925gas.html

dang, you have a rotten job. how much does a $h!t collector make these days? man, i apologize, i couldn't help myself. somebody slap me. Lark.

i heard gamehauler was a real jackass.........Lark.

and remember, us hicks tned to grab onto guns and religion a lot, and according to obamanation, that's a bad thing. guess we're too uneducated to make that decision for ourselves and we need him to do it for us. Lark.