bonuspointjohn

Support of 2538 Would thrill the CBD, Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife. Go Ahead and destroy what took years to bring around. Painted into a bad corner on this one George. Those orgs were against SB1200... as were Arizona Wildlife Federation and G&F... a pretty good cross section... Kent Just a point of reference. The AZGFD is not supposed to comment on political items. The commission can and does. The Nappy crew certainly did not want to have a review board. Changing the name to "Natural Resources..... pretty green to me. As someone here said... you lay down with dogs you come up with fleas. The AWF is a mixture of a few hunters, a load of retired government agency folks and ceratinly some w/ green leanings. There was a lot of discussion before they voted no... and look who supported the bill.... nuff said.

Support of 2538 Would thrill the CBD, Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife. Go Ahead and destroy what took years to bring around. Painted into a bad corner on this one George.

We pay dues to the AZSFWC... a different organization totally. As a group of board members, there is no way that I can speak for them. would you please list the board/director members of azsfwc-- on the 09 tax returns it shows 5 of the board members of azfwc are also board/director members of azsfw. unless people and titles have changed the majority hold positions on both boards The AZSFWC merged last year with the WCC, I will attempt to get a listing of the board members for you.

There can be no way that the ADA will support the bill. It is history, so we move on. We pay dues to the AZSFWC... a different organization totally. As a group of board members, there is no way that I can speak for them. Amanda is on the board and she has tried to tell everyone that we did not see the bill, therefore there was no vote. I am in no way arguing for the bill, merely trying to correct inaccuracies, and support the past work of Representative Weiers. Most of you who are commenting have not ever gone down to the legislature to comment on anything, and most have not worked a banquet or project. Everyone is entitled to an opinion... and I have not expressed mine at all. Support of Rep Weiers is all I am attempting to accomplish. You are attempting to remove him from office based on the temerity that he had to sponsor the bill. I am attempting to support a legislator who I have fought with on numerous occasions, but also respect that he gathered a consensus and made things happen. The AZGFD thinks highly of him, and you want him removed. I want him to stay. That is the purpose of these sites... express yourself.

dont know about money but this pretty much summs it up as far as swf is concernerd copied from another site dicussion ;; Also, anyone that thinks the AZ SFW offspring is not marching to Don's tunes is not paying attention. UT SFW provides the seed money and the playbook for how to finance your non-profit using proceeds from auction/lottery of the public's primo big game tags. The SFW playbook is simple enough. Define the enemy as overwhelming and explain the old way of having Joe SixPack finance battles with the enemy and restore/expand the herds does not work. Often, the F&G is unable (or is illegal) to take on the political fight. Budgets for animals gets put near the back of the line after prisons, schools, etc. This new approach takes big money. No one is handing out big money on the street corner. Big Game tags, however, are a license to print money with a little creative hocus pocus. Primo tags are worth more to Richie Rich than the face value the state collects when awards the same tag through a lottery. Set up local chapters but do not give them democracy. They serve at your pleasure and they do not vote on policy nor the leadership at HQ. Do not ask for just any tags when is time. Get the tags from the non-resident allotment (you know, those suckers can not vote a politician out of office) so the politician is creating surplus money without passing a tax or cutting anyone else's departmental budget. Residents tend to smile when the non-resident hunter gets the shapt. Is silly since we are all non-residents in every state but one. Of course, Joe SixPack will now have fewer tags in the lottery but just leaving a couple of sheep tags in the lottery is enough to keep Joe applying. Set up the expo. Award subcontracts to allies and those you want to shut up that are questioning the actions. Folks are quick to figure out which side of the bread slice is buttered. Outfitters love the idea Richie Rich got a tag that last year went to Joe SixPack. Richie hires an outfitter. Outfitter likes this. Donations are made to the organization. You have big money now the expo is underway. Maybe get a couple of big donors to chip in to your "seed money" to really get the ball rolling. What if the herds do not grow. Say the deer herds in Utah. No problem. You mumble a bit and keep your tags. What if the herd grow. Say the elk in Utah. Well, then, time to fire up the PR machine! Start spreading favors at the state capitol building. Grow your influence over how budgets are set for F&G. This growing influence shuts up the leadership bureacrats at F&G. Get your slate of commissioners on the Wildlife Board. You can now push through legislation that you write and hand off to your pet senator. The wildlife board will not raise a stink. The F&G will not publicly raise a stink. Easy breezy. Next, create tons of transferable landowner tags. The outfitters will grease the skids for that tactic. Got to have even more tags for Richie Rich so he can hire outfitters at top dollar. The above playbook is brilliant. Most of us could be handed the playbook and screw it up 99 out of 100 attempts, though. The concept of a new breed of organization that can get into messy political fights on behalf of Joe SixPack and state F&G is worthwhile, in my opinion. The execution of the playbook has become very, very messy. Trust has been broken. Promises were quickly made during the power-building phase but slowly delivered upon. Who can forget the delay in financial reporting and Expo tag odds? Most of us agree SFW has shot itself and its offspring in the foot. Surprised to see some of your comments. The AZGFD does not get funded by the general public. Never has, maybe some day will. So the inference that they get in line behind schools and prisons is pretty far off base. The public of Arizona does not pay a dime to support wildlife in AZ. Hunters, Fisherman, taxes on hunting items etc. have been the source of $$. The Indian Gaming money is also part of the parcel, but that is directed to traditionally non game species...BPJ

There has been speculation about what kind of money would be raised from auctioning the tags. No one will ever know, since it will never become a reality.

Could you please define what you meant by "heavier price"? I am somewhat unsure what all the new rhetoric is about since the bill was pulled...BPJ

The ADA has not taken a stance on the bill. We were given a preliminary overview of what the bill was and what it would accomplish. The board asked for more information and the "devil in the details". Since we did not see the bill prior to the dropping in the state legislature and since there was a response that mandated not moving it forward, there will be no vote on an item that is moot. As far as membership, the ADA is not a member of the AZSFW. We are however a member of the AZSFWC. The purpose of the "C" is to have a forum for sportsmen, meet monthly to discuss items of interest, meet with the AZGFD (They come every month and brief us on what is current) and then review proposals for the spending of the wildlife plate monies. The ADA, the AES, the AAF and the ADBSS have in the past funded the lobbyist efforts of Capitol Consulting (Suzanne Gilstrap). That process will be up for review, pending any decisions as to the future of the AZSFW. Please feel free to ask any more questions.

Hi Kent; You seem to know your way around the internet. You can review where the candidates come from, how they get interviewed and how long they serve. When you say SFW, are you referring to Utah, or the AZSFW?.... No one can control the board... sorry to take that bit of conspiracy away...BPJ

The Arizona Game & Fish Department has a listing of all of the monies that are spent. A catchment that we put in last year outside of Payson has a price tag of $40,000.00. That includes the materials, the development, the crew and all the volunteer labor that helped put it in. The azdeer.org has a story on the catchment and photos. Catchment replacements are different that scraping a water hole or doing modifications to valves etc.. The AZGFD has a listing of all the proposed projects that the ADA board will be evaluating in the next two weeks. It would probably reduce the traffic flow here substantially if everyone would read all the whitetail/coues projects that we will be looking at. I know it takes at least 10 hours to read through them and I know what to look for after 10 years of doing it. The committee will then meet and prioritize the projects. Only 20-30 % of the proposals are funded because we simply do not have nearly enough money to pay for all of them. BPJ

Hello Comm1... Are you not a former commissioner?... I have stated that HB2072 is dead. The Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club lead????? Smells a lot like politics here. I have protected some folks here but it appears that being courteous is not a good thing. The AZSFW has been blasted here because of Prop 109 which was a failure here. Who came to the AZSFW and BEGGED for the AZSFW support?... George Reiners, of the Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club. I was present where he came in and asked that this "vital" piece of legislation be passed and that the NRA was doing a horrible job and would the ASZFW please help... You are not being honest here Comm1... Rep Weiers posted his statement and that in political speak is a way of acknowledging that the many have spoken. There is no damage control, the bill is dead, Rep Weiers issued a statement to that effect... get on with your life....

Hi Larry, I am not a frequent visitor to the site, I come in when some issues get going that are political in nature. The past week has been difficult and it got a little more ugly tonight. I talked to one of the individuals who posted a vague support of the concept of the now defunct hb2702... He was told that if they ever met him in the woods, he would never leave alive....what have we become?.... That is way over the top... BPJ

After the salaries,auction, and lobbying costs were deducted, there probably wouldn't be much left. If you looked at the financial returns that everyone saw, you would note that there were no salaries. There were lobbying costs paid to Suzanne... But hey, who wants to get in the way of a good rip.....Nice to know that information is useless with some folks. Why have there not been roads graded all around these locked gates then?.... Oh yeah, I remember.... If someone can't find a place to hunt in Southern AZ, then they are too lazy... Pass that on to Audsley, I'm sure he will appreciate the comment...

It sure would be nice to have roads built around them but I just don't think it's gonna happen. Look at all the pressure to close roads on usfs land. Active engagement with the ranchers to keep access roads open is going to have to be a top priority. Bulldozing a road around private lands to access public lands does sound like a good idea... until you start looking at the process that is involved. You need a NEPA, followed by probably an archeaological study, and then a plan, and then the funding. Getting the Forest Service to do anything is frequently a PITA....I have witnessed worthwhile projects that get placed on the backburner for years... because the Forest Service is not able to get to them...Besides guys, I read on the other thread that someone said "If you can't find a place to hunt then you are lazy... and that "there is only flat ugly desert down that way."... I suspect that Larry will be glad to comment more on that...Nice Cane by the way Larry.....BPJ

Good morning Kent. First and foremost, The AZSFW did not propose the "right to hunt" item. That was brought forward by the NRA...We (sportsmen) were asked to help in the issue when it became apparent that the NRA was seeing this as a clear win, no contest and would not fund the necessary monies to fight against the Sierra Club and others who called it a "power Grab". . So this "slick" operation was not created by the AZSFW. We attempted to support it when it became clear that it needed help. There is a public call and any individual can apply for a seat on the Commission review board. That position is appointed by the governor, and anyone can apply based on their particular affiliation or simply as a member of the public at large. You saw the minutes, so you know how the meetings go. Anyone can apply for a spot as commissioner, and we have had record numbers of people apply, since it is no longer a "connected " appointment. The review board that looks at all the candidates is a result of the AZSFW and their efforts. If you would like to see a sample of the other "successes" of the AZSFW, please go back and Google the 2006 SB1441. It gave back money ($3.5 million) that had been swept from sportsmen in prior years and was placed in significant areas around the state in worthwhile projects. Ask the Cattlemen and sportsmen in the Southeastern part of the state how valuable that money was. The AZSFW is not connected with the Omnibus spending bill. That is the Arizona Game & Fish Departments bill to the legislature and they have selected Representative Weiers to carry the bill for them. I personally dislike going to the legislature, but is a necessity at times. I like where some of the members want to remove Representative Weiers because he dared to bring the bill in. It never saw a single meeting of a single sub committee. For those who are not aware, you cannot just take a bill and have it voted on in a single day. It has to make its way through a series of committees and then to the floor as a whole and then through both houses and then signed by the Governor. That process even under the best of conditions takes time. Lots of time. The hunters spoke, and Representative Weiers pulled the bill even before it made it to one committee... But some in this site want him removed. I do not hear about anyone wanting to remove Representative Daniel Patterson however, who is highly thought of by the CBD, the Sierra Club and the Defenders of Wildlife. As far as informing everyone at this site about all potential bills that are in the legislature and that we think you need to support....It is the responsibility of every individual to try and know what is going one each year politically. The AZSFW was one of the few places that sent out e-mails regarding what was happening politically. All you had to do was give them your e-mail address and it was provided.I have given this site the better part of 6 days of attempting to answer questions and I have responded as well as I could. I am not a "powerful" political player, just an average guy who has been involved with the groups that I mentioned way back 20 some pages ago. I did like the concept of the HB2072 and therefore was in support of it. I was not part of the crafting of the bill and certainly would have done some things differently had it been mine to do. I do know the people who were part of the process and I respect them greatly for all that they have done over the years for wildlife. Mistakes were made, but the removal of the bill was the result of sportsmen reacting as quickly as they did. Certainly there has been some dialogue that was beneficial and some that was derogatory. I apologize, but this will be my last effort on explanations. The good that has come out of this is that people have become involved. I wish all of you well and I hope that the hunting fraternity can be made better from the process. Regards...BPJ

A voice of reason during the storm. Thanks Terry, I appreciate the support for Jerry. Most will never know of all his contributions, but I know that you have been present during some of the tougher times. Regards, BPJ

Ok Lark, I will dance my way into the sunset, BUT... I need to clarify ONE MORE TIME... 300 of those tags were for raffle. Everyone could enter, and enter only 1 time, for I think it was going to be $5.00 each. Those who attended the expo could place their raffle ticket in and the event was going to be culminated by drawing those tags of raffle. I fail to see where that was taking away from the po' folks... it was designed for us. I use the "us " term, because I will never be in the category of an auction tag buyer. Drawing a line to bear poachers is something that I cannot understand. I have never heard of AlaskaSFW until today. I do not understand that conspiracy theory. I assume that you are ignoring all the good things that the AZSFW did during its' existence. That in itself is a sad statement. I am glad however that the hunting community has spoken, that it is vigilant and that your voices were heard. It is indeed time to let it go, but to maintain a watch. I guarantee that there will be decisions coming along next year that will affect all of us regarding the Mexican gray wolf. I hope that if I check back when that storm comes in I will find you as active and in good health. Regards, BPJ

Well, I know all the principals involved in the creation of the AZSFW, They liked some of the concepts that helped generate funds for the Utah sportsmen and have the event that they do each year which does bring a lot of economic activity but other than that, there is no connection to the SFW of Utah.... The concept of a major expo was a format that worked and we wanted to do the same thing... with one major exception. We would never tolerate landowner tags. Sorry that I have to plead ignorance, but I had never heard of AlaskaSFW. I seldom travel outside of AZ.

Last I checked Lark, this site is indeed open for comments. "take the cream right off the top?" of the 350 tags, 300 were for raffle. To everyone. Yes, 50 were for auction, yes it was an attempt to pay for a laundry list of items that I still believe in. We have not lost credibility with everyone, I have received a lot of e-mails and calls saying "Hey, it was a bad way to present the bill, it is gone away, keep working for wildlife." Which is precisely what I intend to do. My stop here for however short it is meant to be was to answer questions. People are still asking them and I am still responding. I understand your intense dislike for me, that is your thought process. As long as people are asking questions, I will answer them. Regards, BPJ

I understand a reluctance to trust politicians, but in reality, there is a need for them. To play ostrich will simply leave sportsmen open to a whole lot of other items by people who hate hunting. See below regarding Alaska.. I have no knowledge of that group.. Never been there, want to some day, and I have never had a conversation with anyone regarding Alaska SFW. This is the first I have heard any of this. I did not know they were an organization. Sorry..

The commission process here is totally different. If you were to check the guidelines, it has been created with 5 different people sitting on it. They come from a diverse group that interviews the candidates and then sends no less than 2 nor more than 5 to the governor to make her/his choice. There is no chance in Hades that it could be "stacked". I am sure however that some will still not believe it. As for Alaska, I have no knowledge of that organization. The only time I have met Don Peay was 6 years ago when everyone who was interested in the formation of the AZSFW met here, and then once last year for a discussion regarding the wolf issue and their national drive to have wolves put back in the states hands. So, a bit long winded, but no...we would not try and "stack" the commission. No one can.

Fascinating that you would try and destroy the ONLY legislator that has worked for us. He sponsors what you call a bad bill and 4 days later pulls it because of outcry. Yet you would donate $500.00 to have him removed....Somehow I just do not follow the logic, but hey, last I checked it was a free country and we will all have our chance to help or hinder any politician. I wonder why he is still the chosen one by the AZGFD to carry their Omnibus bill?...

Great summary , well spoken! This beaten horse is now dead! :lol: This particular horse may be dead but the commission has not received official conformation of such. So, we must keep on watching the "dead" horse and other trojan horses that will appear in the future. I dont think that the ugly head has been cut off yet. Evidently a man's word is not worth much here. For those conspiracy theorists, the black helicopter squads, and .... the paranoid..The bill will not be back. Nuff said. You can now go on to other endeavors.

Thanks for the comments coach. A little information would probably help you here. The founder of this organization , Alan Hamberlin, can hunt anytime anywhere he wants to. He has helped drive the price of the mule deer tag to an average of $195,000 for the past 3 years. Now, if I were a "rich" man... and felt this "entitlement", I would hunker down with the rest of the "high bidders" and say "hey, lets all bid $50,000 for the next few years and we can get great tags for a fraction of what we have been. Instead, they have been above board and Alan in particular has tried to increase the tag price so that we could accomplish more projects. Look at the auction tag prices for sold auction tags over the past decade. (I know, don't trust me.. call Ruth Gregory at AZGFD and she will tell you what the tags in AZ have sold for) As for the rest of us... heck, I have hard time with me and my two sons getting drawn on regular dollars, so the "entitlement" does not apply. I hope to dissuade you from your opinion, but that is probably not possible. Just an FYI... the guys who have paid the most have been honorable... and wildlife has benefited.. and ultimately so have you...BPJ

I smell a dance off coming in the future....