308Nut

It's amazing how many posts happen so fast on a Berger failure thread. IMHO, it seems like it's about 1/2 of the hunters swear by them and 1/2 hate them. It's also my opinion that some caliber and bullets weights have a much higher success on expansion than others. The supporters will defend them viciously. Personally I don't hate them nor do I love them. I've had too much success with other types to get caught up in the hype. I've heard and seen too many questionable outcomes for me to consistently leave it up to bergers to secure a successful harvest. I'll use the 6.5 140 with confidence but won't use any 30 cal Berger for hunting. It will be interesting to see how reliable the new ELDX line will be. It's hard to go wrong with a tipped bullet when reliable expansion is an order. If they do expand more reliably and predictably, the will be a great balance between reliability and BC. Coming from hornady, you know they'll shoot very well.

Thank you Wampus for setting me straight on Krieger 5Rs. I learn something new everyday. I also agree that any smith worth his salt should be able handle it. I've not had any complain yet. My current Bartlein 5R shoots a variety of bullet weights and styles well and digests several different powders well. It's not the most accurate barrel I've ever had but it's more than acceptable and it handles a lot of loads very well and a couple of loads exceptionally well. Clean up is easier than average. I get good accuracy at top velocities too. I also find it very easy to hit top end velocities and then some without 'pushing' the limits. Both of which have been my experience with other 5Rs. At 26", hitting the 2700'sec mark with 185-190 grain pills is easy. That's with single base powders to boot. I'm not saying get a 5R and load it to the hilt out of the gate nor am I saying they are magic but odds are, you'll be able to work up to top velocities plus some without beating up your brass. All barrels have unique characteristics that determine how much pressure there will be a what velocities including the 5R type. The trend and patterns are that they run on the fast side and clean up easier in general.

I can see a smith recommending a kreiger or Brux but can't imagine many smiths NOT recommending a 5R. Brux and kreiger don't offer 5R and that might be why he didn't recommend it. They clean up well and run a bit faster. Rest assure, Bartlein barrels are right in among the best.

I've never heard of a 6r. Guess I haven't been paying attention. Nothing wrong with a 5r. If anything, barrel life might be slightly better with the 5 land. More surface area per land to handle the heat slightly better. You'll need all the help you can get with the 300 RUM. My advice? Keep it. Nothing wrong with Bartlein either.

Try the Rem 9-1/2 large rifle primer with 4831SC. Check neck tension consistency. Try another chrony. Make sure the sun shades are on properly and make double sure all or part of one or the other isn't shaded. Also agree with C. Test it at longer ranges. If it groups well, forget the chrony. M

That's great shooting period. I'm with you on 800 yards. I consider myself a = < 1000 yard shooter. While I do experiment and practice all the way to a grand and am proficient there, I am very proficient at 800 and extremely proficient at 600. While I would love to work on 1100-2000 yards, time just does not allow it. Any 'arguing' here is merely splitting hairs but does make for great conversation and it's always good to talk about and clarify these things. It makes for better shooters on both sides.

What velocity are you getting with you creed and with what bullet?

For arguments sake (respectfully) my 6.5 X 284 mathematically has only slightly less Coriolis at a grand. To the tune of 1/2" less. The reason I see around 3 inches with my 308 and 6.5 and 300 win mag is because I am at the 61st parallel. That said, I will adjust for 1-1/2, 3 or 15". I wish to eliminate as many variables as possible. Wind, spin, Coriolis...all of it.

Will hunt. You had it right. My statement was geared towards other statements by others.

Yes sir. The math indicates 3" for Coriolis alone at 1000. The balance is spin drift which is much more. Total is 8-11" depending on what I'm shooting on a given day.

Coriolis alone? Unfortunately as you know there is another factor at play here regarding horizontal impacts. That is spin drift. You can't test how much only one or the other will be. The only way to separate the two is math. The math says my Coriolis is roughly 3" at a grand at 61 degrees N. Around Phoenix it's roughly 1/2 the drift at 33 degrees N. My combined (mathematically and real world at 31 degrees) is 8" to 11" at a grand right depending on the rifle and load I'm using. I start to notice it at 550 yards and by 700 it's very noticeable.

That is not exactly accurate. (pun intended) Coriolis is pretty complicated when it comes to figuring exact displacement of a shot. For example... it has more of an effect near the equator than it would near a pole (North or South), a shot directly north or south will print substantially more movement then one fired directly east or west. Spin drift is more of a constant, but can change with altitude/air density. I feel when speaking about the vast majority of "long range shooters" .3 MOA deviation at ranges of or exceeding 1000 yds would be EXTREMELY hard to pin down to one culprit or eliminate. An even slightly canted scope or rifle could easily be responsible for 1/2 MOA deviation, not to mention the multitude of other factors like wind, mirage, air density, spin drift, etc, or a loose nut behind the trigger. If a guy controls what he can, and coriolis was the only thing unaccounted for then he will likely hit close enough in any hunting situation. I watch lots of long range hunting shots being made (youtube, DVDs, and TV) where coriolis is the least of the guys worries. I guess what I am trying to say is if you do your due diligence at the range and at the loading bench, coriolis will not effect anything but serious extreme range shooting. BIGBROWNS, Thanks for posting. I hope you get that last little bit worked out and put the hammer on a bear! A few key points regarding the Coriolis effect. Fact: There is a greater horizontal effect the closer you get to the poles. Fact: The horizontal effects become less as you get closer to the equator. Fact: Shots east and west yield a vertical component. Fact: Projectiles fired in the Northern Hemisphere will always appear to drift right regardless of direction of fire and left in the Southern Hemisphere. Fact: shots north and south show nearly the same horizontal deviation as those east and west. If you were 500 yards south of the equator shooting across it to a target 500 yards north of the equator, there would be zero effect.

Sure it may take a larger case to make the 195 'shine' but the 195 can make the 7mm rem mag 'shine' a bit brighter. There will always be the argument of what cases are optimum for a given bullet whether it's the 308 and 208-215 grain pills or the 7 rem mag and the 195 grain pill. The point here is that the 195 will muscle up any 7mm that has the stones to make it exit the barrel. It's not always about a cartridge doing a bullet justice. Sometimes it's about a bullet giving more justice to a given cartridge. Now I will agree with C that the 195 isn't going to offer the 7 rem mag huge gains over the 180. The numbers aren't staggering in comparison. Better nonetheless but not to a large degree.

For a short action with a standard bolt face, I agree that the 308 based cartridges are tough to beat. I'm a fan of the 260, 708 and 308. 308 being my favorite. They'll all get the job done on to deer to 500 yards and then some. All have their own strengths in their own rights.

I've researched this to death and analyzed the equations from every angle (no pun intended). The bottom line is that having a slightly canted rifle with the scope level is no problem AS LONG as your scope is level for all shots which it should be for rifles that are level with their scopes too. Once you're sighted in, you're good to go. The pictures in a previous post do a good job of illustrating what happens when you're canting a rifle but that's based on canting a rifle AND scope together. Being comfortable is important.

I have fired more 178 AMAXs than any other bullet both for practice and overall ballistic testing for my own personal gratification. I don't know if that makes me qualified to offer any opinions here but I'll offer some possible evidence to support Hornady's claims. The attached picture shows both new and fired 178 AMAXs. 308 Win 5R. 2550'/sec MV. Distance 650 yards. What I do know is that the 178 starts strong and while all bullet's BCs degrade over time due to decaying velocity, the 178's BC decays VERY rapidly past 600 yards. Much faster than many other bullets of similar weight. Now I know that the 178 AMAX is far from sleek compared to many other bullet lines but neither is the 175 SMK, however the 175 SMK's BC doesn't decay nearly as bad as the 178 AMAX. Between the bullet pictured here and the rapid decay rate of the 178 AMAX, I'm inclined to believe what Hornady is saying. You be the judge. M

Assuming the form factors are high enough, those BC values are possible. In fact, they're in line with other low drag bullets of similar weights. Hornaday does a much better job of measuring and publishing BCs than most bullet manufacturers. Now that they're using Dopler to 800 yards for testing, they'll definitely be among the best manufacturers for accurate, reliable data. Sierra, Berger and Hornaday have led the way for years. All will acquire slightly different values for each others bullets simply for the fact that they use different methods, equipment, distances and there is always room for some error in any set up. Much remains to be seen as to how these will fly and perform on game as well as how accurate their BCs are but I've never had a reason not to trust Hornaday. Their amax line has been the most accurate line of bullets I've used in every rifle and caliber I've used and their BC values have been pretty close at long range and spot on for the methods they used and distances they tested them to. I back ordered 300 each of the 6.5mm 143, 7mm 162 and 175, 30 cal 178, 200, 212 ELDX's.

Bill Bill Bill... Wow! Very nice buck. Congrats. You deserve it. M

Never tried RL19. I did try RL22 with some success. Accuracy and consistency was very good. ES wasn't great but I didn't have any other primers to try at the time. Velocity was good too. Had a fairly high load density as well. I only quit using it because I couldn't find any when I ran out.

Those dents are typically from liquid type lubes. When you shoot these types on the case and ram it into the die, it has no where to go and the hydraulic action forces the case to dent to make room for the lube. Sizing wax will cure that. Imperial sizing wax has never damaged a case for me.

Don't let me talk you out of the 6.5-284. Everyone is attracted to different qualities for different reasons. Everyone can put up with some negative qualities more than others. If you feel you need the extra down range oomph and that's more important to you than other factors, then you should go with a 6.5-284 or 6.5-06 or a 6.5 SAUM for that matter.

Fixing to have a straight 260 barrel cut right now after seeing the results that guys around me are getting. I'll take a hair more windage and a bit less energy in exchange for the other advantages of the 284 version. 1: reasonable barrel life. (Notably better than the 6.5-284) 2: Lapua makes brass for it. 3: you can neck 708 or 308 brass should the need arise. 4: less recoil. Not that the 284 version is bad. 5: higher load density with the best powders. 6: 260 cases feed much more reliably than the 284 case in repeating rifles. The nice thing about 6.5s is that you don't need to run super high velocity to get good ballistic performance compliments of high BC bullets. The windage numbers aren't that big of a spread between the two. My 2nd pick would either be the 260AI or 6.5x55.

51-53 grains H4831 over Rem 9-1/2 primers or 47-49 H4350 over Fed 210m.

You will never have a stability problem with an 8 twist and the 140 AMAX at any altitude in any sane temperature.

Set back a few turns and have it rechambered to 7saum. Nosler and Norma make brass for it and is readily available.