308Nut

First: Where did you find those? Second: What cartridge are you trying to load?

Beware that pushing the brass to the point where the shell holder stops at the die may push the shoulder back too far. A safe amount of set back is .0005-.002". Too much can cause case head separation unless you jam your bullets or are using a belted case. It's not nearly as catastrophic to have the brass expand forward as it is to have it stretched backwards. Jamming your bullets or having a belt keeps the base of the case firmly against the bolt face. That's the safest place to be. If you're not jamming the bullets and you have excessive headspace you run the risk of have the case expand backwards. Especially with those types of bolts that have a spring loaded extraction plunger which assures the case will be pushed all the way forward until firing occurs, such as what's in Rem 700 actions.

+1 I've had quite a few barrels from quite a few different manufacturers and to this day Lilja is one of my favorites. I've had 2 Lilja barrels and they were awesome. Surgical accuracy. Sometimes I wonder why I don't use them more often. Chasing the next latest and greatest all the time I guess...

Looks like the difference between the ELDMs and the AMAXs is just the tip. There are slight bearing surface differences but it's possibly manufacturing tolerances between lots. The overall lengths are identical. The bodies are .011 and .018" longer on the ELDMs. Left to right: 140 AMAX, 140 ELDM, 143 ELDX, 200 ELDX, 208 AMAX, 208 ELDM, 212 ELDX.

.264/143 = 1.440" on the dot. .308/212 = 1.598" The nose of the 212 is longer than the 200 ELDX and is about the same as the 208.

Probably, but not for a while. Our 1000 yard range is closed until April or whenever the snow on the adjacent path clears and dries out. Our 300 yard range is open 7 days a week from 7am to 10pm but I've already fired 208 AMAXs over 200 yard double chronies several times in times past at different velocities. The results were right in line with Hornady's numbers and Litz's numbers for the given velocities. I don't see the need to shoot the 208 ELDM over two chronies seeing how close they are dimension wise, For kicks and grins, I'll definitely do a side by side 1000 yard drop comparison out of the 300WM when the range opens but won't take the time to set up two chronies for them. I likely won't get to the 140's any time soon either. My current and only 6.5 barrel is about gone altogether. It doesn't shoot the 140VLD or 140 AMAX with any real degree of accuracy anymore. It shot the 140VLD, AMAX and SST lights out in it's earlier life. The best accuracy with the VLDs was by far .001-.002" off the lands. I've tried jumping the VLDs in it early on and in recent days and it will not tolerate it and my throat has been chased enough to where I cannot get them on the lands. It'll do 1MOA reliably but I'm not game for that. It is handling the 140 ACCUBONDs and the 142 ABLRs very well though and those will be my go-to bullets until it is re-barreled. They'll do 1/2 MOA consistently, sometimes less. I will likely load some 143s in the next week or two just to see if my barrel likes them but I won't hold my breath. When she gets re-barreled and is more trust worthy, I'll get more serious about giving them a thorough work up unless she digests the 143 well. If it does do well with the 143s, like it does with the 142s, I'll take the time to set up double chronies just to see how close they are to advertised and to satisfy my curiosity. I'm betting the 143 will be close if not right on. There is nothing about it's design that would suggest it wouldn't be over .600G1 unlike the ABLRs where we all knew just by looking at them that they wouldn't be close to published. IMO, Hornady has always done a fair job of the short range BC testing and published values. Now that they've stepped up their methods and increased the distances in which they test, I'm reasonably confident they're going to be close. Even if they are lower, I'm pretty positive the gap will be much smaller than it is with the ABLRs. With the utter distain the long range crowd has demonstrated over the ABLRs published BCs, I'm sure Hornady has taken note and desires to not fall into the same category. Sorry about the long winded response. It isn't as simple as yes or no! Yes AND No.

Yup. I've had a similar problem only it was meplat to ogive that was the problem. I had a reamer built around some dummy rounds with the 6.5 140s to fit my magazine, maximize powder capacity and kiss the lands. A new lot of bullets (500 count box) put me over mag length and unfortunately, my best accuracy was just on the lands. I was not happy about that. That issue works for some guys. It doesn't work for me. It's one of the reasons I don't get too hung up on them.

They discontinued the 285 amax but replaced it with the 285 ELDM. M for match. To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between the ELDM and AMAX is the tip. Weight, dimensions, jacket etc...should still be the same. I wouldn't sweat it my friend. They did the same with the 6.5 140, 7mm 162 and 30 cal 208.

26" 11.25x 5R. IMR4064. 210m. Hodgdon's reloading site shows 2728'sec for the 175 SMK with 4064 in a 24" barrel so I'm right in there. I've pushed them faster without any pressure signs but the best accuracy is at 2744'sec. They show at least 4 different powders at over 2700'sec under the 175. For the 168 they only show one load over 2800 but most of the other powders they have listed with the 168 smk are under the max recommend pressure. I get even better velocity with the 178s in the Palma case and H4350. 2796'sec to be exact. The 175 would likely exceed 2815'sec. Accuracy is reasonable but 1/3 MOA is tough to beat and 2744 is nothing to sneeze at. If you really want to melt some bullets out of the 08, try N540 and N550. It's insane. Less recoil too. Much smoother pressure curve.

Thank you azhamill. Wow no exit. I've always had AMAXs exit except for one Sitka blacktail which mushroomed out and stopped in the offside hide. It sounds like they're almost scary explosive. I guess for thin skinned light game, that's alright. I never planned on using them on anything big and heavy anyway, just deer size game. I'd be a really happy man if they'd offer a 190 TMK. I'm running the 168s at 2856 and the 175s at 2744.

I was going to take my new 30-30 lever gun out tomorrow and dial her in at 1350 yards. I've got a new tasco 3-9x I just picked up at a garage sale yesterday and came with see through scope mounts. I'm super excited!! By the way, what is sectional density?

Thank you for sharing. Could you elaborate a little? Maybe what the cartridge used was, starting velocity, estimated impact velocity etc... You said blew up. Was there an exit? Did you hit shoulder or leg bone or ribs? Have you used AMAXs on deer? If so, how did they compare? Any other info is appreciated! M

Don't be sorry Lark. There are some strong personalities and strong opinions here. As for the rest of you, don't hate on me for saying that either because I will be the first to admit that I rank right up there with the rest of the strong personalities and opinions! Just gotta remember Lark that it all works. Some of us just like to split more hairs than others. If the 264WM works for you, that's awesome. If the 6.5-06AI works for C, awesome. At least we live in a time where we have so many good and viable choices. We really can nail down what works best for us without too much of a gap between what we have and what we desire. Cheers! M

None at any critters. I'd love to know how they react. As far as paper, I'm very pleased. The 155, 168 and 175 all shoot well in my primary 308. The 175 is exceptional.

Personally, I think you are doing one of several things (or a combination of them). 1: I think you're trying to learn while at the same time making everybody think you are an expert. 2: You enjoy arguing and proving your smarter and/or more educated than everybody else. 3: You really are smarter and/or more educated than everybody else and you start your threads in a way that makes people think you are looking for knowledge when in reality, you just want to one up them when they make less educated comments than you could. Hopefully I am wrong and you are actually trying to engage in a constructive type of discussion for the benefit of all. Whether or not I am on track here, I will respectfully disengage from these threads. I can see where it is going and it isn't going anywhere good. We're both going to end up looking like jack a??!! There was a time when I did enjoy the battle of wits and knowledge but I really have much better things to do than to go back and forth with no benefit to other readers. I'm not trying to be a prick here, nor do I desire to be one, though it's probably impossible not to be one while trying to convey my message. I do enjoy these forums and threads on shooting. I even do enjoy an occasional constructive argument, especially when opinions are involved. It's pretty hard to win or loose an argument when facts can't be involved or just aren't involved. When facts are involved, the person who is in the wrong looks like an idiot and the person who is right looks like a jack a$$. In many cases, both parties look like both. When it's opinion based, it only gives the guys arguing as well as onlookers more thought provoking ideas to chew on...To me, that is constructive. Best wishes, M

Sierra would still set you straight. You're example of the round nose versus the spitzer having equal SDs but the round nose having a lower BC is true. Understand that I never said BC was based on only SD. Yes form factor is key as your example shows. But you need to realize SD plays a role too. Again, if you have 2 bullets shaped exactly the same (same length, nose, boat tail etc..) but one has a higher SD, it also has a higher BC and penetrated more. These are inescapable truths in physics and science. What is SD in relation to bullets? It based on diameter and weight. Is weight important?

I think you need to re-read my post very carefully and then read some of your response to my post. You say things like "but you might have meant that too", when it was stated right in the quote. I didn't just mean it, I actually stated it exactly. If you're going to argue that sectional density doesn't contribute to BC, go above me and talk to Sierra Bullets. They'll set you straight. And fast. My example of the jacketed lead versus the all copper was to illustrate that SD matters regarding BC. Visualize 2 bullets that have identical diameters, nose profiles and boat tails. They both weigh the same. 200 grains for this example. One is all copper. One is jacketed lead. Can they have the same overall length? No. The all copper bullet will be longer because lead is 'denser' than copper and it takes more material to make it weigh 200 grains. Maybe my choice of words, namely mass was poor. Nevertheless, the copper bullet is dimensionally bigger which creates more what?? Air drag, giving it less of a BC because the form factor is less due to the increased length. Now let's visualize that the two bullets have the exact same dimensions. One being all copper, one being jacketed lead. Which has the higher BC? Answer: The jacketed lead version. Why? Because it has a higher what?? Sectional density...In addition, which will (all else being equal) penetrate more? Answer: the one with higher sectional density. Is SD all important? Maybe not. Is it worthless? No. Are you trolling? BTW, I wasn't defending Berger in the least.

1st, why do you say that the barnes will out penetrate the berger? It may in some cases and not in others. If all else were equal (ie construction, expansion ratio, material, etc...) the bullet with the higher SD wins. Period. Also, 2 bullets that have equal caliber and form factor but have different SDs, which do you think will penetrate more? I think what you're looking at is a barnes 120 blowing through a section of ballistic gelatin where the berger might have exploded and didn't exit. That has nothing to do with SD but everything to do with construction and expansion properties. SD is also a direct contributing factor to ballistic coefficient. That is part of the reason barnes bullets have such low BCs. Equal weight and form factor, the jacketed lead bullet will have a higher BC. Why? Because (among other contributing factors such as specific gravity and others) the all copper bullet has more mass which produces more air drag and doesn't weigh more to be able to offset the added drag. Which will penetrate more? That depends on how much each will expand. SD is not worthless. You are looking at your example without the right context.

Living where I do, I'm doomed to pay high shipping prices. Midway really pisses me off though. They package bullets in a USPS flat rate box, charge the flat rate shipping plus 10$ for the luxury of living in AK. I called them on it recently and they said the extra is because final delivery is by UPS which is BS because the USPS always drops it off. I'm about done with midway. I understand I need to pay shipping but they're flat out crooked about it with it costing the same to them to ship it 2 miles or 3000 miles. I have no qualms about buying large quantities to try. If none of my setups handle them well, the next barrel probably will. I can always sell them too. If Hilary gets elected, I can't enough bullets regardless of the type. When the TMKs were announced, I back ordered 500 each of the 155, 168 and 175. They all shoot lights out and they'll last me a little while. I hate having to buy 100, work up loads, realize that it's a sweet bullet only to not be able to find more to stock up on. I tend to buy large quantities of what I know I need when it becomes available and I tend to buy large quantities of new products as well so I'm not waiting forever to get more after the testing phase. I do the same with powder. Years ago, you would buy a pound to test, then go get either more one pounders or an eight pound keg. Now, all I buy is 8 pounders when they're available because lord knows how long it will be before you can find more. I haven't seen 8 pounds of H1000 for well over 3 years. There was a small supply of one pounders a year and a half ago. Fortunately I have friends in the retail business that set aside 5 pounds for me. I buy 8 pound jugs of powder of types that I'm not currently using if I even think I might be using it in the barrel or rifle in next few years. Bullets too. I've got about 3000 7mm bullets (500 each of various types) and the only 7mm barrel I own is a blank on my bench. But in the next year or so, I'll have it fitted. Regardless of the component availability situation, I'm good to go.

Midway has had the 30 cal 200 grain ELDX in stock since last Thursday or Friday. I got mine Monday. I took a soldering iron to the tips of the AMAX, ABLR, TMK and the ELDX. The ELDX held up considerably better. The way they are designed, they do NOT make a good choice for short action cartridges. The 208 AMAX makes a much better short action option. I'm assuming the 178 ELDX will be the best option of the ELDX line for SA cartridges.

I remember seeing one like that from your upper deck in 1996. Pretty cool.

I set all of my Jewells up at 7oz. It sounds light but with a bit of practice, you get the feel of it where you can actually feel it without setting them off. They're nice because you don't have to build any real pressure from your hand to get it to go which eliminates torque on the grip when you're in an odd field position. Also because you can get set and wait out the mirage or wind to get right. When conditions are suddenly right, you just have to think about it and bang. Off she goes.

Lark, Before the long range rage, when I started learning the sport, I thought at the time that the Hornady BTSP interlocks were the best thing going. The 100 grain 6mm, 162 7mm and 190 .30 cal had reasonable BCs for that generation and they shot very accurately. I had no problems shooting the 100 grain 6mm to 900 yards. 1/2 MOA from 100-900 consistently. Ballistic tips were just starting to come out and they instantly became the rage. I'd take a Hornady BTSP over a ballistic tip any day. Granted, this is a Berger thread but you have good and valid points there sir. I do toy around with Bergers now and then but I've had much better success on paper with others which also happened to perform adequately on game. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

How did you determine there was 10.5" drop at 300 yards? Did you dial and convert to inches or did you aim dead on with your 100 yard zero and measure the drop?

300 Win will nail down an elk at 800+ with authority.