308Nut

I have used the 300 RUM extensively and VV powder extensively. Just not together. My experience with the VV powders is very positive. The Finn's make reloading products with EXTREME precision and consistency. My best loads in a 2 different 300's was RL-25 and the 180 ACCUBONDS.

The bottom line is that if you want something specifec, you work with a reputable smith. You will get exactly what you want/need. I personally dont trust any package companies out there. Way over priced, and many lack real performance. They may have super high velocity and all that appeals to gun nuts but for real long range practical results many can leave you in want. I get the sense that you know what you want to accomplish but dont know what you want in a rifle other than the end result. We still need to know if your target requirments are paper or flesh, how much you want to spend and how much weight or recoil you can tolerate. I will give it to you straight. If you want to learn how to shoot 800 yards and NOT be frustrated, look at the 308 Win. It is anything but sexy but it is such a user friendly cartridge it is sickening. You want a custom 308 that will shoot lights out? Call GA Precision. You can punch paper at a full 1000 yards+ with the 308 and with the right barrel/load, can ethically harvest some game to 800 yards. The 308 is my "goto" rifle and I hunt mostly in Alaska where the game is big and tempermental. It does just fine for me. Have harvested critters at nearly 800 yards with it. If you want a long range hammer like an 800-1200 yard+ elk rifle, call Shawn Carlock at Defensive Edge in Idaho and talk to him about a 338 Edge. These rifles, this caliber and results are absolutely mind boggling. I have been playing this long range game for 15 years and have never seen the results before that guys (including myself) are getting from this caliber now. Everybody wants a "magic" round. I believe that this is as good as it gets. 2000 pounds of energy at 1000 yards with 308 accuracy and single digit velocity extreme spreads and MUCH better barrel life than the 300 RUM. More energy, less drift and longer life. You cant beat that. I have personally shot a 1.5" group at 700 yards with this caliber. I know 2 other guys who have done the same. This system flat works. Take it from a guy who has spent more money than I should have ever been allowed to on rifles, barrels and shooting supplies. Call GA Precision for a 308 or Defensive Edge for a long range hammer. You can google either for FAST results. Either will shoot lights out at 800 yards. They both have a .5 or better MOA guarantee.

The only dis-advantage to the 300 RUM is they eat throats faster than hungry pirana's eat a swimming pig. This isnt a problem for guys who shoot VERY little. For guys that like to shoot often, this can be detrimental to consistency, eventually accuracy and definately the pocket book.

+1 I'd look at Krieger barrels as well, but let your smith help you with the pro's and con's of each barrel type, action, etc. Those guys on longrangehunting are legit. And as a side note, a good smith can put together a build that will shoot as good or better as any "Custom Rifle Company" and do it for much less with much more personal attention. Kriegers are decent. I also agree that a "custom smith" versus a custom rifle "company" is the way to go. BTW, Todd Betin was mentioned, his is one that is worth his salt. So is George Liechty in Utah. Homer Strickland at Accuracy Arms in TX is an old BR shooter/precision rifle smith.

300 WSM = less recoil, longer barrel life, less over all length and weight on the complete rifle, less finicky than long skinny magnums including the 300 WM.

Wow. You just opened a LARGE can of worms. What do you want out of this 600-800 yard rifle? Paper targets or game? If game, how big is the game in question? Are we talking elk at 800 yards or whitetails at 800 yards? How much weight do you want the rifle to be? How recoil sensitive are you? Do you plan on putting alot of rounds down the barrel each year or do you want to work up 1 load, sight her in and leave her in the safe until hunting season each season. How much do you want to spend? I will say this much before you answer all these questions. I have burned out 3 barrels of the "hyper" velocity 30 cal versions. My opinion is super hot 30 cals are all hype and not very practical. They look great on paper but have left me and several long range shooters I know very dissapointed every time due to VERY SHORT barrel life. I can help you choose a caliber/rifle smith based on your needs. I know several smiths that are worth their salt. Most specialize in some facet of LR guns but some have a pretty wide range of specialties. Dig deep, be honest and I and several guys at longrangehunting.com can help you. This is what we do. We have spent more time and money than we should ever be alotted on this stuff. We know what works and what doesnt, who builds good rifles and who is all fluff. You should know that a good custom action is an average of about 1000 bucks. A Remington 700 trued up and smoothed up is about 700 bucks. In some cases, it is better to spend the extra 300-500 bucks on a good custom action. I am partial to the Reminton 700's as when they are cleaned up are very good actions with parts and accessories out the ying yang available. A good trigger is about 250 bucks. These can be set as low as 1.5 oz and up to 3#. A good trigger such as Jewell or Timney will make or break a good rifle. As far as barrels, it is largely a personal preference. Lilja, Hart are button pulled barrels and seem to take the heat from hot calibers a bit better than cut rifle barrels. Bartlien, Rock creek are cut rifled. Rock Creek has had alot of issues in the past with steel being too hard or to soft as well as bad tooling marks in the barrels. They may have their act together now I dont know. Another really good yet new company is Brux barrels. Lilja is about the highest ranked barrel maker in the long range comunity. IMHO other makers make a barrel just as good. You will wait about 4-6 months for a Lilja barrel. They are worth the wait. Hart make an awesome barrel that you dont have to wait months for. Christensen barrels while thick yet light, actually trap heat and arent well suited for mutiple shots in a row. McMillan and Manners make (IMHO) the best stocks. They like any other stock, need to be bedded properly to maximize their potential. I look forward to helping you scheme and dream.

You have already harvested some nice lopes. You waited 20 years for an AZ tag. I say learn all you can about the big boy. Find him, stay on him, come opening light, harvest him. I know he is an old wise goat, but dont hold that in such high esteem that you defeat your self mentally before you even meet the opener. YOU ARE the dominant species here. Dont forget that. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

I'm definately with you desertdog, I would rather have a tag in my pocket every year, than hold out for a late tag. All the bucks running around in December were there just the same in the oct and nov. hunts. I think taking a trophy in the early hunts is all the more credit to a persons hunting acumen and skill. I would bet that a determined hunter that has ten tags in ten years will end up with more "trophys" (if trophy hunting is your game) than someone that waits ten years to get one Dec. tag. Just my opinion. You both are very correct. I have felt the same way over the years but lately for me it has been about a quality experience. After last year I will never be the same. From 2002 through 2007 I had access to some AWESOME sheep country and over the counter tags to boot. The problem is that so did every body else. Now I was blessed enough over the years to harvest some nice rams and one really nice ram despite the heavy competition. In 2008 it moved to drawing only for that area. I was blessed to draw 1 out of 5 permits on the first year. 2% odds. I didnt see a single soul on that trip. It was unlike any hunting experience I have ever had. I had the whole freakin drainage and then some all to my lonesome. Most of the early coues hunts have an ungodly amount of hunters in the field. The late hunts these days offer very few tags and subsequently a quality experience. Even so, if I lived down there, I would probably apply for the late hunts 1st and the early hunts 2nd. This would ensure many early tags in my pocket and if blessed, a couple late tags over the years. Besides, the is always the archery season. The late WT tag I have this year affords me to have only 24 other hunters in the entire unit and one of those is my cousin. No more December archery in the unit. It will be very lonely. It will be a high quality experience. Well worth the wait. Besides, I have traditionaly came down in January and hunted a week while "waiting" for my "quality" tag. Everybody has a strategy and that was mine. The next hunt I hold out for will be a desert muzzle loader mulie hunt while I bowhunt coues in January while I "wait" for my tag.

A number of years ago, the game department told me you could use salt and mineral licks for deer SO LONG as archery tackle was used. It was NOT ok for rifle hunters. This was in the early 90's so the rules could have easily changed.

Stud buck.

That is what happens when you apply for the most premium permits............... Dont hate me for drawing a late WT tag. I picked a number, got in line and waited my turn. Once I had enough points for the 20% pass, drawing a tag was easy. It was more like earning a tag instead of drawing one. I wont tell you how many years I have faithfully applied and having to buy a NR license just to earn a point. Lots and lots of my $$ are in your state helping your wildlife. Beisides, if I know you (which I really dont, I just get the impression) you will be out there chasing or arrowing big coues bucks with your bow until you draw another coveted permit. Now that is the problem to have......... That said, it really is hard for me to feel sorry for you. Besides, you will get another good permit with some patience and bowhunting to fill the voids. Heck if you really want to hunt every year, move up here. All the sheep you can handle mostly over the counter. Do you realize we dont even pay for our sheep tags? Moose, bears, blacktails out the ying yang, caribou. Did I mention we have free over the counter sheep tags? Move on up, you wont be dissapointed. Please note, the above statements are all in good fun.

Concider yourself VERY blessed. Ketchican is typically VERY VERY wet this time of year. Oh wait, every time of year.

Is that the same spot with all the bulls?

It takes more twist to adequetely stabilize a 168 TSX which is what he is using now due to its low specifec gravity than a jacketed lead 180 ballistic tip or interbond. The 168 Barnes is actually on the ragged edge of stability. The 180 AB's, or even VLD' s will have a higher stability factor than the 168 Barnes. If he is getting them to stabilize, he will have no problem getting conventional 180's and even some 200's to stabilize. When the outdoorsman was developing their outdoorsmans 30-378 rifles, they went as slow as 14 twist running 180 BT's with phenominal accuracy. There isnt much difference between the 30-378 and the warbird. Berger bullets also recomeds a 13x for their 175 VLD. These are just recomendations and based on average velocities. There is room to spare, espescially at the velocities the warbird is running them. If bench rest shooters can get a 168 SMK's to stabilize at 2400 FPS in a 14x barrel with groups shooting anywhere from .100-.200 MOA, I assure you a 180 in a 13x at well over 3000 FPS wont have any issues not even in the accuracy department.

Oct 30-Nov 5.

Late coues unit 22 for me. Tag #2.

If you dont mind slowing things down a bit, then definately try some H50BMG powder with both the 180 and 200 NP's you have. If 50 powder doesnt help, try the Retumbo.

Late Dec. coues here. not really a big suprise with all the points. I drew tag #2. Congrats to "pwrguy" as well for late WT. Happy hunting to all those who drew this year AND to those who didnt.

The 13x barrel in not the black plaque you think it is I assure you. You may not be able to run 210's and 220's etc...but you wont have any trouble getting the 180-190's and some 200's to stabilize. I say some because you will likely NOT get the mono metal bullets in 200 grain to stabilize but the jacketed lead variety will stabilize just fine. A common benchrest load for the 308 is the 168 SMK in a 14x barrel at much lower velocities than the warbird. As the velocity goes up, so does the ability to stabilize. Plus the air in AZ is never dense enough to caue you any trouble to boot. As a side note, I wouldnt waste any barrel life on the MRX bullets. The MRX bullets fly way worse than the TSX or TTSX. At 200 rounds, I would have a smith bore scope your barrel. It may be time to set her back. Are you using any other powders than RL25? Even for the warbird and 27" barrel, 3600 with the 168 TSX is a very stout load. Have you tried H50BMG? It will slow things down a bit but maybe the ticket. Have you tried the 180 Hornaday Interbond? Have you tried the 180 Nosler ACCUBOND? How about the 200 ACCUBOND? You have kind of a conundrum here. Super hot calibers need certain bullets for reliable hunting performance. That doesnt leave you with alot of options. You need options for accurate 1000 yard shooting. You find yourself testing and testing and testing trying to find the perfect load and you have to do it with a cartridge that offers you very limited premium accuracy life to begin with. It sounds like you need a different caliber. More 1000 yard user friendly. If you demand mass amounts of energy at 1K, look at the bigger 338's running 300 grain pills. The 338 RUM and Edge or Lapua mags are EXTREMELY inherently accuracte and can deliver over 2000 pounds of energy at 1K with less windage than the warbird and MUCH better barrel life. That is nearly twice the energy at 1K with 20" less drift with over 900 FPS less at the muzzle than the 168 TSX loads. I know this post is very pointed and maybe some things you dont want to hear. I say them because I have been in your shoes and then some. I recocnize the frustration. I have burned many barrels "searching" for the perfect rifle/load. It doesnt come easy or cheap but it does come for those who are persistent, patient and willing to try new things.

If youre getting .5-.6 MOA consistently, LEAVE IT BE!! With a barrel burner like that, your barrel will be toast after trying to tighten that up. Dude, youre in the .5's. If you want .25 MOA get a freakin bench rifle.

YOU IDIOT!!! You used pigeon blood! Youre suppose to use owl blood. How are you suppose get accurate readings like this???? WHAT THE HE!!?

tell me about it! This is the worst case of blue ba!!s I have ever had.

The draw results WILL come out on a Wednesday. (+/- up to 3 days)

You think? Nope! I KNOW!!!!

My bet most of the hits are the G&F reading the posts and laughing that evil deep down dark laugh. I picture one guy with his finger on the button to post the results and the other evil guy saying "NO not yet, lets wait a few days and see if anyone goes postal.......this is fun!....baaaaahaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaa" Yes it's pretty on my planet It is scary how we think alike. More like a relief. Someone else out there thinks this way!