308Nut

You can NEVER go wrong with passing on a shot you are not comfortable with. Since you were not comfortable you made the right choice. That said, you did NOT blow the shot of a lifetime. You will get more chances in your life. With some education and experience as well as some field tests, you may or may not change your mind the next time you are in that same scenario. For me, with a coues buck being the game and with the arrow weight, and broadheads that I use and speeds I run them, I would have taken the shot with confidence. I would have aimed right on the shoulder to try and catch both lungs. As has been stated already, it is a much different story with elk. The hides are tougher, bones are bigger, and they have an uncanny ability to survive or at least long enough to loose them when BOTH lungs are not involved. Get back out there and get your buck.

What they need is an online form that you can fill out and if there are any errors (other than wrong hunt numbers) it will inform you BEFORE you are able to print it. Then when 100% acceptable, can be printed and mailed or dropped off. The pdf file they has does not inform you of any missing info. That of course is wishfull thinking.

Very nice buck. Congrats.

John, I wish to say happy hunting and wish you much success. Please let us know how you do when you return. On another topic. Your last post was very insightfull. Thank you for sharing your personal preferences. When it comes to velocity choices, ballistic coeffiecients choices, drop compensation methods, the use or lack of use of calculators etc...is all a matter of personal preference. I dont mind you or anybody sharing their techniques or preferences. I simply ask that you dont insult my preferences or try and show your preferences as superior to mine or others and I will do the same for you. Make a debate out of physics? Yes. Make a debate about preferences? No. The debate earlier was about math and physics period not personal preference. Lets try and keep physics debates and personal preferences sperate. The guys we are hoping to help will decide which components and tools will work the best for them. Thank you. Back on the topic of physics and math, when you come back and you have some time maybe we can engage in another 'physics' debate about ballistic coefficients and their relationship to bullet drop and wind drift and the differences between high BC's at medium velocities and medium BC's at high velocities where I will show you how one of my 308 loads has less wind drift and more energy at a full 1000 yards than the 308 Warbird running the 168 Sierra. Yes, you read right. LESS wind drift AND MORE energy out of my meezely 308 at 1K. Looking forward to your return! Agian, I wish you much success in Mexico! Michael

An incredible buck pure and simple. 110-120" bucks dont look natural. That thing looks pre-historic! What a jurassic mutant. Congrats to headhunter.

You're spot on. They have very little effect. For all intensive perposes, if you convert the MPH wind value to FPS and add or subtract that value to your muzzle velocity you find how high or low the bullets will be. It really isnt much. According to Sierra bullets, the above statement is not 100% accurate to be 100% technical but is so scary close there is no reason to get into calculus about it. I am just a nit picker. An inch here and inch there really starts to add up over time.

1: Yes my primary cartridge of choice is the 308 winnie. When I need more range or energy or both I use a 338 Edge. This offers 300 grain bullets with very high BC's and minimal wind drift and exceptional energy at very long range. 2: They dont. They make you one or two custom dials for a given enviornment. Other wise you just use a standard dial in .25 MOA increments or 0.1 Mil increments and dial to what the calculator tells you to. One day it may be 24.25 MOA and the next day it may be 25.5 MOA at a given yardage. 3: Personally, I use the Swarovski LRF. I have used the Leica 1200 as well. Both are top notch. You're welcome.

It seems like there has been a lot of 'shock' effect in regards to the use of a hand held ballistic calculator. If I have offended anybody I appologize. Since this is a longrange thread I see this as a good opprotunity to express why I like to use them in the field and what the benefits are when using them at longrange for practice and hunting. 1st off I will say that if a hunter wants to draw the line at 500 yards, he does NOT need to employ the use of a field ballistic calculator. The reason for that is because up to 500 yards ballistics are fairly forgiving. For example when I sighted in my rifle near my home where it is near sea level and was -5 degrees to 10 degrees above zero, just before I left to come to Arizona for my coues hunt, my 500 yard drop from zero was 33.5". Where I was hunting in AZ it was 5000' and 55 degrees. My 500 yard drop from zero became 29" for a 4.5" difference. This is what I call forgiving because the bullet will not strike much higher than normal even though I feel it is too much for precision shooting. This coupled with the fact that the starting point which is the zero will also be higher. This compounds the problem and causes even higher strikes. To be fair, I not only used the calculator to help me figure out how much higher my zero would be but I also went out and field verified this which is a good idea anyway because of what I call airline bag handling olympics. So after going to the range, readjusting my zero by 1/2 MOA, I set out to the field for the hunt. Now at this point after correcting my zero my 500 yard drop would be a real 29" drop from zero. From this example, you can see how a field calculator is not needed. We can simply print a (verified) computer generated drop table to 500 yards. The temprature and pressure swings will not be enough to really screw anything up. For example, since we have corrected our zero and recalculated our drop table for the enviornment that we are hunting in, our drop is 29" at 500 yards in 55 degree air at 5000' assuming the pressure is standard and not excessively high or low. Now when we get a storm front move through and the air becomes 30 degrees and the pressure falls a bit we are still within 1" at 500 yards. This is why when the range is limited to 500 yards, a field ballistic calculator is NOT needed. You will ALWAYS find me in the field with a range card attached to my stock for quick shots at 500 yards or less and/or when my electronics fail. For the 500-800+ yard shooters, the margin of error during atmospheric changes becomes too great to use a field verified drop chart plain and simple. For sea level and 30 degree air, my drop at 800 yards is 162" on the nose according to my calculator AND real world tests. When the elevation is changed to 5000' and 60 degrees when I am sheep hunting in early August, my 800 yard drop becomes 138" for a 26" difference. The miss would now be measured in FEET! Not inches. A drop chart here is pretty useless for me. Even if I calibrate a chart for 60 degrees and 5000' when the weather changes and I am shooting 800 yards, the drop is NOT going to be consistent. I have a drop chart calibrated for 60 degrees and 5000' using the standard 29.92" Hg for absolute or sea level pressure which means the drop at 800 yards is 138". However, when a storm rolls in and the temp drops to 25 degrees (which does happen even in August) and the rams I have been pursuing have dropped down to 4000' to feed first thing in the morning, the 800 yard drop becomes 147" for a 9" difference. This is enough to send a bullet right across the hair on his back for a miss. Again, because the drop chart in this case was useless. Other factors that make a hand held computer useful for longrange shooting/hunting is when: 1: Angles are enountered, you simply enter the angle and you get a MOA or Mil hold for the shot whether it is level or 34 degrees. Without this you have to use a simple calculator to figure the corrected drop and then run more numbers for a MOA or Mil hold. This takes more time than to just use the ballistic calculator. 2: Wind/Spin drift. For those who dont know, spin drift is the effects of a bullet rotating at super high RPM. The nose becomes pointed ever so slightly towards the direction of the spin. When this happens a small amount of air pressure against the nose of the bullet pushes it off it's intended line a wee bit. For the average caliber, it is roughly 6-10" at a full 1000 yards. So if there were 10" of wind drift to the right at 1K and 10" of spin drift for a right hand twist the total is 20" of drift. When there is 30" of wind drift to the left and 10" of spin drift to the right it makes for 20" of drift. This is alot of thinking on the fly. When you enter the wind at 3:00 and 4 MPH the calculator takes all of the factors you either dont know about or forget and calculates out for you EXACTALLY where you need to hold. The key here is when you enter accurate data you will get accurate results. For the windage aspect this can be tricky. More on that in another thread at another time. Trust me, the wind isnt as hard to beat as you might think. 3: Another factor is temprature/load cartridge sensitivity. Most know that the velocity of their loads are affected by temprature swings. This is combated by firing loads over a chronograph at one temprature and firing a second batch at a higher or lower temprature. Once the differences are determined, a number can be calculated for how many FPS are gained or lost for one degree of difference. For the extreeme end, this can be 2 FPS per degree. On the lower end it could be 0.3 FPS per degree. This depends on what brand AND type of powder you use, load density etc.... When you know the temprature (because you carry a thermometer in your backpack) of your loads, you can compensate for the higher or lower velocities. My pet 308 load changes .57 FPS per degree. In 30 degrees of difference my drop only changes roughly 2" at 800 yards. This seems minimal but when you add up ALL of the factors it could throw you off by 2-3 FEET at 800 yards if you dont know what causes the changes. These are just a few reasons I carry a hand held ballistic calculator on my hunts. This may seem bizzare and way out there or even far fetched. Maybe it is but if a hunter ever desires to shoot and harvest game CLEANLY at ranges most only dream of, the hand held ballistic calculators used along with a pocket weather/wind meter are absolutely vital. Some may call my ethics into question and that is fine. I personally NEVER take a shot unless I know it will be clean. Sometimes the wind just cannot be judged accurately and I have to pass on the shot the same as when a stalker finds the wind is not right he passes on the stalk for more consistent wind or finds another way to make an opprotunity. I would rather lay down and set up on a shot while the game is bedded or feeding casually and wait for everything to be right and touch off a calm, controlled shot with a rock solid rest than blow the stalk and take a running or at the very least a rushed shot most likely off hand. This leads to misses, bad hits and adrenaline charged game which seem to become supernatural even after a good hit. I hope this post isnt out of line or missunderstood. It is just a point of view of someone who likes to shoot much more than he should. I dont mind being called a master debater. With education and experiences debates happen. I am grateful John and I were both able to conduct ourselves in a respectful and civil manner. That says alot about his character and I welcome his view and experiences. This is a big part of how I have learned many things about my carrer, hunting, shooting, marrige, raising children etc..... Regards! M

Why be wary when youre 10 times bigger with 40-50 pounds of bone on your head to protect you! BTW, cape buffalo are even dumber than moose. Albiet they are ALOT more tempermental!

OUCH!!! No really, ouch! Some guys like to hunt. Others like to shoot. I am weak on stalking abilities and strong in shooting abilities. Seems like a fair trade to me. Guys like Randy Ulmer and Chuck Adams are stalking machines not to mention all the countless other hunters who do it for themselves and not for recognition. They too use as many precision tools as are available to them to aid them in their quest for the perfect stalk and shot. Because they are so skilled in their practice, and use the available tools to their advantage, does that mean they are better than a person who applies the same principals for shooting? Does the game have any more of a chance with them than against me or my shooting abilities and tools? Personally I think the game has a better chance at survival against me than some of you other phenominl 'hunters' who are skilled in the 'getting close' method. You guys are hunters, I am a shooter. To each with his own gifts and his own abilities. Hunters are proud of the stalk, I am pround of the shot. M

For me it was an (estimated) 1800 pound bull moose taken in the arctic circle in 1999. His rack was 61" wide and was over 40# in and of itself. The thing that stands out in my mind was that his body was so massive that his antlers looked very small. I almost didnt shoot him because I didnt think he was 50" status as the game department requires in most areas. Then I remembered I was in an 'any bull' unit and promptly shot him. I didnt even realize what I had untill I got home several days later and put a tape the the rack. Lets just say that I am 6' tall. The willows he died in were a foot or more over my head. When I saw him just before he tipped over, I could see the line of his back and all of his neck and head.

You gotta give credit where credit is due. He did design it for Pete's sake. Hows that 270 shootin there Lark?

And barrels!!! Sorry John. I am just being a smart a$$ here. Those Lazz's sure are fast. BTW, dont pay any attention to Lark (.270) and take him with a grain of salt. Or two. He just doesnt know any better.

I can respect you for your firm stand. Let's just agree to disagree. Obviously we have both had good success at longer than average ranges angles or no angles. With your super flat rifles and at the distances you refer to, your math is close enough to make clean shots. I too have had what you call practical field verification at longer ranges and not so flat rifles. One such occasion was this fall on a dall ram at 702 yards and a true 45 degree angle. I screwed up the initial measurment and dialed for 38 degrees and missed over his back. When I realized it was 45 and not 38 and re adjusted my scope, the result was a center strike and a rolling ram. Another case in 2002 was my longest kill at 763 yards and 17 degrees. This was one shot and a rolling ram. I guess what I am trying to say is we both practice regularly, apply good judgment and enjoy success. That is where I will leave it. Welcome aboard again. M

BTW, welcome to the site John. You will find that the people here are the best people I have found versus on any other fourm. I dont think you will find a better group than who is found right here! M

John, In my own words, the reason it matters is that we dont live in a vacume. If gravity were the only component to a trajectory arc it would be a pure parabolic arc. With this parabolic arc the flat line distance would be accurate. It is due to air density that we dont have a pure parabolic arc. With air density, it greatly affects the trajectory curve. the slower or faster the bullet and/or the higher or lower the BC and/or the higher or lower the air density the greater the differences in a trajectory curve you will see. In a vacume with only gravity it is always a perfect curve. One load may have a wider curve but none the less, the maximum height of all the trajectory curves will always be 1/2 way through curve where as in our enviornemnt the max height is always closer to the target due to air density. This is why it is proper to use the bullet drop when figured from a level barrel instead of the bottom 1/2 of the tri-angle. The math involved includes knowing the true drop AND the corrected drop from the scope's zero. The true drop has to be multiplied by the cosine value of the angle as we know it. Which is COS*angle*PI/180. For 45 degrees this equates to just over .7. For a 45 degree shot this is (true drop * 0.7) - (true drop) - (corrected drop). All of this crap because of air density. In other words, the trajectory is altered by the angle of fire because gravity only affects the bullet based on the bottom of the tri-angle (AKA flat line distance) but when you add other variables such as air density, it add a whole new set of issues to the equasion. I hope that makes sense. In regards to the hand held computer, it only takes an extra minute to use. When I arrive in the field in the morning, I enter the current barometric pressure and save the temprature for just before the shot. What this affords a shooter is to enter an exact yardage and get perfect results for the current conditons. Drop charts only work to a point. For your calibers that point is further than my 308. For coues size targets, my limit is 500 yards without adjusting for changes in air density. My bullet drops from my zero to 500 yards only change slightly when substantial atmosheric changes happen. After that threshold, the drops change too much for an ethical shot. Also charts are set in 25, 50 or 100 yard increments. With the hand held you enter 663 and you get a PRECISE drop figure and MOA or Mil value for correction. Also, you dont have to guess a wind value when the chart says 10 MPH. If it is 4 MPH from 2:00, you enter 4 and 2:00 and it gives you a PRECISE windage figure. It also corrects for head and tail winds, spin drift, coriolus and so on. For precision shooting at past the hunter's zero, they are very usefull. Again, I appreciate the lively discussion on exterior ballistics. M

Simply outstanding!

Depending on how the bore was cut and whether or not it is a factory barrel or custom, I have heard of the throat being chewed up in less than 100 rounds. I have never owned one so I cannot vouch for that. What I can vouch for is the 300 RUM. I had a cut rifled barrel that the throat didnt make it to 70 rounds and a button pulled barrel that made it to around 150. Albiet I was hot-rodding them. I cant imagine the 7mm being any more forgiving. Both settled down after a few hundred rounds but I was limited in the velocity I was able to get due to the added friction of the cooked throats. The 300 RUM is capable of 3350-3400 FPS with 180's in a 28" custom barrel. I was stuck with 3250 with both after the throats cooked. Of course it will depend on how fast shots are fired consecutively and how often it is cleaned and how it is cleaned. Also it is a theory of mine that factory barrels last longer than custom barrels. This MAY be due to custom bores are as perfectly finished as they can be. When it is a perfect finish, it can only go downhill from there. When you have a rougher finish, it smooths out and 'breaks in' offering some added life. Again, this is only a theory.

162 AMAX trajectories in the 7 RUM are impressive. Equally as impressive is the very short life of the throat and bore. A good ballance between flat shooting and barrel life is the 7 rem mag or the 7mm RSAUM. The 260 rem running 140 Amax bullets or 140 VLD's is also a very good wind bucker as trajectories meen little in the age of rangefinders. GL in what ever you decide. M

John, I have to say that it has been enjoyable to have someone here to "talk" ballistics with. A lot of guys here are developing the skills and knowledge for longrange hunting due to the nature of the coues deer being small and the shots long. Most here dont talk about longrange ballistics but LR shooting and exterior ballistics are hobbies of mine and love to chat about them. Please know that my intent here is not to argue or bicker. Talking and sharing is the only way either of us and others here learn. I agree with you that there will always be a bit of error. The idea is to minimize it. I realize you dont need a computer to calculate the horozontal component. My point is that there is more to it than just the horizontal component. If you compare this to a ballistic calculator you would see what I am getting at. Coues deer are VERY small targets. The hunters here need more accuracy than just the horizontal component. This is why laser range finders that utilize angle compensation for bows and rifles have different settings for different velocity ranges. The Sierra manual (4th addition) explains in detail how to figure the angle cuts. It shows that it isnt as simple as finding the flat line yardage. Below are some charts generated by JBM online ballistics. JBM is the most trusted online ballistic calculator. Bryan Litz of Berger bullets endorses JBM. One is 0 degrees and one is 45 degrees. It is funny that you mentioned not knowing anyone who has the time or patience to be playing with a hand held in the feild when setting up for the shot on the buck of a lifetime. Now you do. Not 3 weeks ago I used a hand held to set up on my buck of a lifetime. A 109"+ coues buck. Not one week ago I set my cousin up on a 100" buck using the hand held. Only one needed an angle correction. Trust me it works. I am Michael by the way. It is a pleasure to meet you. M

With all due respect there is complicated and then there is accurate. Your method is better than using nothing but it is the least accurate of any of the accepted methods. Below is a link to an article written by the developer of the ACI (angle cosine indicator). He admits that the most accurate method is to input the number into software (which can also be done using the math on a calculator). He mentions your method and admits it is the least accurate as there can be up to an 8 MOA error using this method. I challenge you to compare your method against any premium software when the appropriate numbers are entered. you may just be suprised. http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/angle-shooting.php

No offense John but there are some holes in your methods. They may work awesome with your calibers but do not work with all. One example would be your multipliers for your angle cuts. For my rifle 25 degrees at 475 is a 7" cut. For the 308 Warbird it is a 4" cut. The proper way to determine angle cuts for ANY rifle load combo is vastly different than the method you describe. Add more degrees and longer ranges and a complete miss would be inevitable. Another no-no is using a corrected yardage for an angle cut instead of a inch cut. Otherwise a shooter gets confused and dials the wrong MOA value or uses the wrong Mil. For example if you say with the angle it is like you're only shooting 375 yards and you use your Mil or MOA value for 375 yards it is not a precise shot. This is because the game is still at 475 yards. The values would be wrong. For example using my rifle, a level shot at 475 would need 1.5 Mils to center. If the angle is changed to 25 degrees I need 1.2 Mil. If I used a Mil value for 375 yards and level I would only need .65 Mil. If I used .65 Mil at 475 and 25 degrees, the result would be a miss all together. In your illustration of the mulie buck at 475 and 25 degrees using 1 Mil at the bottom of the heart may result in a miss or a very very low hit as you would need 1.2 Mils to hit perfect shot. Using 1 Mil you would be roughly 3.5" low of the bottom of the heart. The long math version goes like this: Bullet drop at 475 yards = 26". 26/3.6*(475/100) = 1.5 Mils. Using 25 degrees there is a 7" cut. The game is still 475 yards but I need to deduct 7". The corrected trajectory to the target is 19". 19/3.6*(475/100) = 1.2 Mils. Using the 375 method wont work as the bullet drop there (level shot) is only 8" where my corrected drop at 475 is 19". Also the Mil value in inches for 475 yards is 17.1" per Mil. The Mil value for 375 yards is 13.5" which compounds the problem. You're on the right track trying to use .9 for 25 degrees and .8 for 35 degrees and .7 for 45 degrees and so on. However to find the true angle cut, we have to multiply the cosine value by the true bullet drop. The true bullet drop is the drop of a bullet when the bore is fired perfectly level. For example, the rifle might be zeroed at 300 yards so there is no drop at 300 yards. However if there were no scope and the bore were level the drop would be roughly 23" for my loads. So we take the cosine of the angle 25 * PI / 180 and come up with roughly .9. Now we take .9 * 23 = 20.7. Next we take 23 - 20.7 = 2.3" Now we subract 2.3 from my corrected bullet drop which since we are shooting 300 yards and that is my zero, I have to aim exactally 2.3" Low to make a perfect hit. To take 300 * .9 will work in this instance because the range is close and the angle is minimal but if we up the ante a bit you will see that a miss would happen. Take 600 yards and 45 degrees. My drop at 600 is 64" from my zero at 0 degrees and 31" at 45 degrees. Take 600 * .7 and you find 420 yards. The drop at 420 yards is 16". This is a 15" error. Granted, we dont have time to run all the numbers above in the field just before the moment of truth. This is why we use hand held computers with ballistic software in the field. It takes an extra minute or two but offers a perfect solution for a long range shot. If there isnt time to set up with the hand held, then it just wasnt the right shooting opprotunity. Either method requires a calculator of some sort for most shooters. Sometimes you have time and sometimes you dont. Thats just the way hunting in general and longrange hunting goes. Again, no flame here meant. Just trying to point out that it isnt that simple. A precise long range shot means figuring ALL the numbers properly and accurately. The picture below is a copy of my ballistics chart in case my hand held dies. I print it with the average altitude and temp I will be hunting in. Notice how it has the usable trajectory path and the absolute drop. There is also a group of multipliers for various angles. This allows the math to be done the long way for an angle correction in the event of electronic failure.

Rex, I really had a blast this trip! I think I wanted to see you get a good buck more than you did! It really made our hunting trip complete seeing that buck of yours drop. I wasnt there for full 21 days but the 15 that I was there had me whooped though. I am glad I was able to help get a good buck as you helped me get a good buck. Congrats again on a beutiful buck and thank you for your help an hospitality. Michael

Outstanding. Congrats are in order. That heavy buck is a toad. Over 110??