308Nut

Killing them. They are gorgeous animals. It is a shame we have to kill them to put them on the wall. Other than that, getting on an airplane and flying back home to the fridgid frickin cold.

Easy there big fella, I assumed a guy who can dish it out by the gallon could recieve a little friendly fire. I am sorry if you take all of this as bashing. That is honestly the furthest thing on my agenda. I understand that I have my preferences and you have yours. I honestly repect that. I guess I get carried away when you are involved in a thread. Your unusual outlook and humor on things encites me to return "colorfull" controbutions to the 'lively' discussion. In this case, I will admit I have a STRONG opinion on barrels and I certainly expressed that opinion strongly. Maybe I got carried away and for that I appologize if I offended you or if I came accross as bashing you which was not my intent. We all know you like to BS and I was just engaging in the BS. When it comes to barrels, I never said you were wrong, I just meant I thought that heavier barrels were better when 'better' is a very subjective term. Like I said, I realize I got carried away with my opinion. The only thing I really felt you were wrong about was Hathcock's rifle make and model. Stay colorfull Lark. M

700 adl hugh.............. Gunny used anything but a 700 adl. In fact he used a model 70 in 30-06 that utilized a 'medium heavy' contour for most of his work in Vietnam. Towards the end of his career he used an M40 in 308. If you know anything about the M40 it has anything but an adl barrel contour. In fact they are down right heavy. If light barrels were the cat's meow, law enforcment and military would be all over them. Most FBI and secret service snipers take one shot also. Ever see one of those guys using spaggetti barrels on the job?

For average shooters hunting at average ranges, gun weight is of little concern. When you take the leap to 'longrange', the rules must change. The priorities change from carry weight to maximizing accuracy and consistency even under field conditions, espescially the 'cold bore shot'. Contrary to popular belief, heavier barrels DO have a positive affect on shooting even when only one or two shots are taken. You dont need to fire alot of rounds to benefit from a heavy barrel. That said, there needs to be a balance between heavy and carry-able. IMHO, a Sendero contour that is fluted is about as good a balance as you can get. There are some excellent lightweight components for rifles these days that dont sacrifice durability. You can save weight there. The barrel however is not the best place to do it even though it is the most effective place to reduce weight. It also will depend on how far you want to shoot and what size targets you are shooting at. Ask yourself, is this a 600 yard elk rifle or a 1000 yard elk rifle? Is this a 1000 yard coues rifle or a 600 yard coues rifle. Obviously for a 600 yard elk rifle you will need a wee bit less accuracy than for a 1000 yard coues rifle. You will find out real quick what your accuracy requirements are when you ask yourself those questions. For a LEGITIMATE 1000 yard big game rifle, (taking the carrying of the rifle out of the equasion) lightweight will do nothing to help you when it comes to accuracy, consistency and forgivness during the shot(s). Weight, although cumbersome at times, will help even if it is minimal. Then again, when it comes to consistent 1000 yard shooting, you need ALL the help you can get. The fewer forces working against you the better and IMHO, the help you gain from weight is more than minimal. If you watch your p's and q's, you can have a scoped rifle weighing in right at 10# with a Sendero contour that is fluted. Another decent heavy to mid-weight contour are the 'palma' contours. These are a great balance between weight and ridgidity. Another thing you must concider is that no two people are the same and the word 'heavy' is a VERY subjective term. One hunters comfort zone will be totally different than another. A couple of years ago, my dall sheep rifle was 12# and I did one sheep hunt with a 16# rig. 16# was way too much but it got the job done. It was the only rifle I had at the time as my 308 had a burned out barrel. Now, after too many seasons of packing 12# rifles into sheep country, I have moved on to 10#. 10# so far is much better. I am sure that the older I get, the more weight that will have to come off. However, for hunting Arizona country for the most part, 12# would be OK since I dont have to fight near the amount of THICK brush and have to swing it around all day and hump up and down 30-40 degree slopes while gaining and droping anywhere from 1000-4000' all day for days on end. For an AZ huntiing trip, even 14# is managable for me since most of the hunting is done behind the tri-pod and the carrying happens in short bursts. Another thing is the bigger the bullet and the more the powder, the heavier rifle you will need to tame the recoil for not only your comfort but also the rifle will not be very consistent when it bounces around during the shot. IMHO, with a muzzle brake, a 10-12# rifle in a 300 win mag is about right where as a 338 Lapua running 300 grain bullets should be 16+ pounds even with a brake. A 10-12# 7mm-08 or 308 without a brake is pretty decent as well and if you really wanted to cut that down to 8-9# that would work fair enough even though (IMHO) 10-12# in those calibers is better.

Good job Rex. I figured you were out turkey hunting when I tried to call you this weekend to let you know mom's operation was a success and your phone went to voice mail. Anyways, congrats on a nice looking tom. M

+1 95% of the critters I have ever harvested have been with the good ol 308 including 2 bull moose one of which was an enormous arctic bull. Bears, moose, caribou, sheep, deer.....it doesnt matter. Providing that you refuse to kick her to the curb (which I would highly recomend ),If she only lets you have one for the rest of your life then barrel life is of major concern. Magnums burn out too quickly IMHO. That said, the 308 will handle anything this continent has to offer (including elk and the largest of moose) short of very large bears. 200 grain pills for elk and moose and anything from 168 AMAX's to the super high BC 208 amax for couesies. Oh by the way a 308 barrel should last you 5000+ accurate shots if you take care of it properly. You wont even see 1/5th of that out of a super magnum.

Cryoing doesnt add much if any life to a barrel and wont turn a 1/2 MOA gun into a 1/4 MOA gun or a 3/8 MOA gun for that matter. It was the rage a few years ago but like the belted magnum, is dead. I have very mixed feelings on barrel break in. Currently my opinion is for factory or unlapped custom barrels, carefull break in can be of some benefit. For a high quality smooth finished hand lapped barrel, the first 3 shots are the most accurate. When youre dealing with a barrel burner such as the 300 RUM and it is a real throat and barrel cooker, you probably want to spend as little time breaking it in as possible. Maybe a few shots where it is shoot one and then clean one. Then 3 bullets fired 2-3 minutes apart and clean. A factory barrel should start to clean easier after 3-5 shoot one clean one shots and 2 or 3 three shot groups spaced a few minutes apart. Take it from a guy who has cooked two 300 RUM barrels that your barrel will last A LOT longer and offer more consistency if you shoot one and let it cool 2-3 minutes between shots. How bad can it be? I burned the throat out of my last one in less than 75 rounds and 150 in the previous one. BE CAREFULL! Make dang sure if you ever use sweets or any other amonia based copper cleaner regardless of whether or not you use it during break in or regular cleanings or both that you dont leave it in the barrel for more than 5 minutes. Also, it will dry the steel out severely regardless of how long you use it. Make sure that after using it that you swab the bore out a couple of times with another type of not so harsh copper solvents such as Hoppes or shooter's choice and swab it with oil when you are done. This will minimize how dry the steel is. Using JB afterwards seems to help a bit which gets the fouling and copper left behind by solvents and helps fight the dryness. If you do use sweets, the instructions on the bottle work the best. Soak a patch and swab back and forth for 1 minute, then swab out the excess. You dont need to swab with 15 patches once. It works better to use one or two back and forth for a minute. What ever cleaning techniques you decide to use, be consistent with the technique you use. Your groups can change if you dont. Some guys like to clean the bore down to bare metal. Others brush out the powder fouling and copper fouling and leave the minor and normal coating in the bore. When one or the other changes, so will your groups and velocity. Brusing and swabing will leave a super fine coating in the barrel. JB paste or Flitz will take it down to the bare metal. Either is fine just be consistent and regular. Dont over use JB or Flitz. Polishing a bore super smooth will make an enviornment for worse copper fouling. Just use enough to get rid of all the fouling. Hope that helps!

Looks like that 4 point is a nice archery buck.

I drew 2 bonus points and an moose tag.

My draw results are................................. "Unavailable at this time."

YES I HAVE A JOB!!!! There are much more important things than work...........Besides, I am caught up this week so I have a few extra minutes here and there through out the day. That is the beauty of having a self starter job where nobody looks over my shoulder all daggum day! I can work my a$$ off when I have the time the rest of the week and relax when I need the time such as today! Even if I couldnt, it would be the same old story.............Dial, click, close, dial, click close.................Priorities, priorities, priorities.

They say that the anticipation of death is worse than death it'self. The anticipation here is just about worse then death albiet this is a he!! of alot more exciting than hearing "you were NOT drawn for..............". I guess we just all live for the rare occasions that we get to hear "you were drawn for........., you were drawn for hunt#...." and we live even more for the opprotunity to drop the hammer on the buck or bull of a lifetime and have an exciting experience while getting to that position even if we never get to that position. The most exciting hunt I have ever been on did not involve a harvest but I still dream about it with many smiles. Sometimes success is simply having the opprotunity to hunt and gaining fond memories. AWE who am I kidding???? I WANT BONE!!!

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19...d-phones-54755/

If you look really closely, you can see a coues buck in that picture.

I thought I could just be patient and wait till the results to comment however my weakness has gotton the better of me....... I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Didnt we just do this in July????? Why do we have to suffer twice a year. Is once not E-FREAKING-NOUGH for you 'gods' at the azgfd????????????????????

308 nut, I have read some of your posts, so i know you know your stuff about ballistics and long range shooting, I have had great success with the berger vlds, Is there something out there I should also be experimenting with, besides the berger? I shoot a 30-06 It depends on what you want to do with them and how far you want to shoot game. I dont like them only because A: My rifle does not like them and B: They have to high of a minimum velocity requirment for reliable expansion. This poses a problem for guys like me who shoot 308's. They limit my range too much.

I cannot say that neck sized loads are really any better than FL sized loads so long as they were reloaded properly. Now for a benchrest shooter where winning and loosing is seperated by a few thousandths of an inch, NS may be a tad better however it is not going to make a 1 MOA rifle a 1/2 MOA rifle. The reason alot of guys NS only is because the brass can last longer than if you expand and resize the brass every time. When you do that, 2 things happen. 1, the brass moves forward causing a weak spot towards the head of the case (near the base) and the brass becomes 'work hardened' which makes the brass much more brittle. NS only is not always the answer either. In most factory SAAMI spec chambers, the brass expands quite a bit and only contracts back a tiny bit during the first firing. When you neck size only and shoot again, that brass is already stressed and has lost some of it's 'spring back' properties. After a few firings you will notice that the cases come out and chambers very tightly. So really, for a factory cut chamber, pick one and replace your brass often. For a very snug match or BR chamber, FL sizing or NS work about the same. With a very snug chamber, the brass never expands much at all and springs back to dang near specs on it's own. This eliminates the stress on the brass which keeps it springing back to shape with every shot. To neck size only is a good idea in this case because it takes nearly forever for a case to become 'sticky'. If you have FL dies available, use them. Reload the cases a few times and toss them. Dont forget, when you use FL dies, TRIM your necks!!!! Otherwise, the case can be too long and crimp the bullet when the bolt closes and it gets forced somewhere it doesnt belong. Too much pressure will result. RR is spot one here with the shoulder. The die should touch it or bump it NO MORE than .0005" That is 1/2 of one thousandths of an inch. Major issues will result if you bump the shoulder back too much.

As far as FFP versus SFP reticles, I dont have a preference. Most guys choose a side so they can beat up on shooters that are on the other side, but I really dont care. I have used a couple of FFP and quite a few SFP. I am very familiar with SFP scopes. The reason I dont care is because my long range scope is just that, a long range scope. I use it while sitting on a mountain top waiting to pick something off. It is on maximum power at all times except when I have to get really close to something. If the situation is such that I need to get 1 on 1 with the critter then my scope becomes minimum power. Since it is zeroed for close shots and I am going to use the center crosshair it is dead on regardless of power. Most guys that prefer FFP scopes use holdovers versus dialing. They prefer holdovers because they dont trust the mechanisms in their scopes. My advice is if you cant trust the dials, then it isnt worth having. Dial problems is not somethig I personally have ever dealt with except on a springfield armory scope which I had of course before I knew any better. The bottom line for me is that if it is far enough away for me to need a holdover or adjustment, it will be on full power anyway regardless of the focal plane status. When it is on full power, it simply does not matter. If it less than full power it is because I am close to the critter and will be using the middle. Again, it just doesnt matter. Some may argue that it may prevent you from making a mistake which is true, but where do you draw the line? You can make a mistake by using the wrong holdover by mis-counting because you were in a hurry. NOTHING is fool proof. If you make something idiot proof all you really do is make a better idiot. Choose the scope you want and learn how to use what you do have. The focal plane on a scope isnt high on my list of priorities where repeatability, reliablity, consistency and durability are. I also agree that there is no disadvantage to using 20X at 350 yards or 250 for that matter. It all depends on what youre doing for a given shot. For offhand shots at 100 yards 20X may be a bit cumbersome. When you have a steady rest, high power is not much of a concern unless youre less than 100 yards. If youre in that position with such a scope, youre probably in the minority as most of the time having a scope that big AND knowing what to do with it your shots will be 300 yards+. FWIW, my 'go to' scope for years has been a fixed 10x. The original Leupold Mark 4 with M1 turrets and Mil-Dot. I have shot all my best 1000 yard groups with that scope. I think the old saying, "aim small miss small" applies here, albiet I did find this last December while adequete for coues bucks at 1/4 mile, was not as good as I would have liked. That said, I am going to give the 10X to my wife and I am going to get a Mark 4 fixed 16X with M1 turrets. My 338 Edge sports a 22X. I dont use the Edge much which is probably why I dont use the 22X much. I prefer my Mark 4, so it stays on the rifle I use the most.

Rex, how the he!! did I not know about this????????????????? BTW, good job, congrats and what does he score?

+1!! Wow! It seems like the grass is always greener on the other side! There have been ALOT of posts with the "dall sheep" in mind. As much as I like my dall sheep hunting and being able to say that I have harvested 6 of white cliff dwellers, I would give it all up for rutting Arizona bulls if I could hunt them every year. In this country my dream hunt is a January mule deer hunt in units 41 and 42 with a rifle. (I know you all dont get it and I cant explain it so dont ask.) This hunt does not exist so I would have to say AZ unit 9 archery September bull elk hunt/unit 23 early rifle bull elk or a San Carlos early rifle bull hunt. In another part of the world, it would be an Ibex hands down.

Any time you can afford to use a cleaned up action with a premium barrel you cant go wrong. My vote is using the 700 and Hart or Lilja. Both barrels are cream of the crop. Is the 257wby what you want or what they want? You may concider a 280 AI. It offers a better variety of bullets with better barrel life. While not as fast and flat as t he 257, it will drift less and hit harder farther. Just a thought but if youre dead set on the 257 then by all means..... Jewel triggers are also cream. As a side note, alot of ladies dont like sensitive triggers. It scares them. Jewel triggers can be set anywhere from 1.5oz to 4 pounds. 2 to 3 pounds is a good place to start with the ladies. M

Harold, we would love to see your buck back. He is a true one of a kind buck. We dont get to see bucks like that very often even in these threads let alone in the field. Very few of us will ever even see a glimps of a buck like yours in the flesh. You dont need to worry about what anybody else thinks. I was'nt going to post my buck but decided that this maybe my one and only chance to show off an over 100" buck.

Rex you're killin me here.

I almost posted cotton long johns but decided against it since I was able to burn them for heat when there was no other 'fuel' available when I was wet cold and shivering violently. So I will have to say Weatherby Mark V's, Sprinfield Armory scopes, two peice bases, Millet rings, wisker biscuits, CCI primers, Berger VLD's and Bushnell anythings.