308Nut

Scout the cows in July and August and you will find the bulls in September.

If you would have asked me a year ago if I would ever believe I would know anybody that would be killed in a hunting accident in my lifetime I would have said doubtfull. Now I have had two friends killed in hunting accidents in less than one year. Bret was an EXTREEMLEY experienced and savy guide, hunter and outdoorsman. If it can happen to him, it could happen to anybody. PLEASE be carefull out there. http://www.adn.com/2010/05/31/1302113/wasi...uring-bear.html M

As far as the 'flyer' it could have easily been the fact that it was 85 FPS faster than the other two. 85 FPS in and of itself wouldnt make for 2+" of difference at 100 yards but if the load isnt in the right harmonic node with your barrel then whatever made the bullet run 85 FPS faster manifested a vibration that your barrel did not like. Once you find your 'node' velocity discrepencies wont affect your groups. At least not out to 600 yards. Once you get past that, the simple fact is that you will start to see higher and lower impacts due to higher or lower velocities. It really shows up at 1K. As far as what caused the 85 FPS difference, it could have easily been your brass. Different wall thicknesses will have an impact on your burn area and subsequently the pressure, in turn affects your velocity. Inconsistent neck tensions can also affect extreeme spreads as well as cheap primers, seating depth consistency, and many other factors. IMHO, the brass manufacturer AND lot# needs to be the same and the necks need to be anealed after a few firings to soften them a wee bit to get them consistent again. Firing and resizing will work harden the brass. The molecular structure of the brass (in the necks) needs to be changed back to normal to get them right. Hope that helps! M

My opinion is that December rut hunts are very exciting and action packed. While fun, it can also be frustrating due to bucks constantly on the move. Either looking for does or chasing them over the next ridge. And the next one and the next one........The rut definately brings the big boys out for a bit more visibility but deer in October have to eat and water too. For me, I am sucker for rutting undulants and cool weather. So December hunts are my taste, however, many a big bucks get taken in October. This is where it boils down to the hunter. With good glass, patience, persistence and making your shot opprotunities count, you will have far more good bucks on the wall than I ever will. Pre rut bucks are ALOT more predictable than rutting bucks.

Now I remember why I live here. After a looong cold dark snowy winter, I was able to get up to my shooting spot. It was an absolute gorgeous day. 50-60 degrees, blue sky, soft breeze...........Anyway, despite making not one but TWO mistakes, I remembered why I get out and practice so much. The last thing I want to do is make a bad hit on a critter or have the trophy of my life get away. #1: I forgot my hand held ballistic calculator on my desk at work. Duh! #2: Because I didnt have my calculator, I defered to a printed drop chart I printed a month ago (which of course is NOT calibrated for the temp or altitude I was shooting) and promptly read the bullet drop for 725 yards in the WRONG column. I dialed 20.5 MOA and let her rip. This led to 2 bullets wasted as they flew over the target somewhere in the neighborhood of 61.5 inches. I knew I should have listened to that inner voice that said "isnt 20.5 MOA a bit high?" Duh! Anyway, I was so excited that it was such a nice day that I just was not very carefull. After seeing that I missed the target clean, I went over the chart again and saw where I went wrong. After correcting to 12.0 MOA, two 338 rounds went in the target. Not the best group but acceptable. Next was the 308's turn. After dialing the correct drop this time (at least correct for the temp and altitude in the paper) of 4.6 Mils a nice and tidy 3.25" 3 shot group resulted right at 6.5" high (altitude and temp) I dropped it down to 4.3 Mils and viola. 2 in the orange and one a bit lower for a 5" 3 shot group. Then I set up at 300 yards to verify my zero. 3 190 grain pills landed perfectly in a nice tidy group. Note to self, ALWAYS have the right equipment handy!! Regards and happy shooting this summer! The first 725 yard 308 3 shot group 6.5 inches high The second group 300 yard zero verification (The 2 bullets in the black are from the 338 at 725 yards)

I think you are on the right track moving from hot 30's to the 338. The barrel life is MUCH better and they hit much harder at any range but excell at very long range. Another major benefit with the 300 grain pills is that the wind drift is seriously reduced. The new Berger would only drift 43" at 1K in a full on 10 MPH wind where the 30-378 running 180 grain pills (even at a very optimistic 3600 FPS) will drift over 60" Still not bad but when it comes to windage, less is better. With modern lasers, trajectories meen absolutly nothing. Windage is what will make or break your success. The difference in energy between the 2 calibers is nearly 1000 foot pounds at 1K yards where as at the muzzle it is only about 200 pounds. Better bore life, more energy, less drift. It is a good choice. The down side is recoil.

I have not. I am waiting for their 250 VLD. Suppose to sport a .743 G1 BC. I can handle the recoil of the 250's much better than the 300's. These would be a good balance between weight, recoil, high BC and retained velocity and energy.

From left to right: 30 cal Hornady AMAX 155 grain (sitka blacktail), 30 cal Barnes XBT 180 grain (arctic moose), 30 cal Nosler ACCUBOND 200 grain (dall sheep)

Not being a smart a$$ here. I am using a 338 Edge running 300 grain pills with a very high weight, BC and high velocity to weight ratio. At 7000 feet above sea level it delivers over 2400 foot pounds of energy at a full 1000 yards. Berger just came out with their VLD version. This will translate into nearly 2700 foot pounds. If you would feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 30-06 with the muzzle buried into the fur, then the 300 grain pill of a larger diameter ought to do the trick. Most would agree that 1500 pounds is enough for a mature elk (provided there is reliable bullet expansion). Granted, I dont like the 300 grainers due to recoil. The 225's I am using offer me 1700 pounds of energy at 1K with enough retained velocity to initiate expansion at 1K. Accuracy is top notch. Is it a 1K elk rifle? It depends on who you ask and how hard the wind is blowing. M

Lark, I am in Anchorage. Drop me a PM when you pass through.

I've been waiting ALONG time to see this 'other big game' critter bleed.................. I know it is not over untill that F@t lady sings but it is GOOOOOOOD to see them mortally hit! M

AMEN!!!!!

WOAH, hold on a second!!!!!!!!!!! Lets not get carried away. Ropes are to quick. I have dental picks, jumper cables, wet sponges, 480 volt battery banks, a transformer to step it up to 4,160 and an DEEP understanding of electrical theory. Red is positive, black is negative. Make sure his/their nuts are wet.

Well put. That is also why myself and a few other 'longrange' hunters I know also bowhunt. Hunting is hunting and shooting is shooting. I prefer both challenges.

Killing them. They are gorgeous animals. It is a shame we have to kill them to put them on the wall. Other than that, getting on an airplane and flying back home to the fridgid frickin cold. They are beautiful animals and they are great eating! Venison is some of the healthiest meat on the planet. I certainly don't kill them just to put them on a wall.... I totally agree. However, I certainly dont fly 2500 air miles and spend countless dollars to harvest 40 pounds of boned out meat. Albiet, I certainly take the meat and enjoy it even if it costs 50 bucks per pound! I would be lying if I said I soley hunt them for meat.

Unfortunately for your argument, nobody said Liljas were the best. 2nd, it isnt just somebody who got a screamer barrel from Lilja. For every complaint about Lilja, there are many many times that in success. Besides, I can see the conversation with Dan and your buddy going something like this: Hello Dan, I would like a 7mm barrel that will stabilize the highest BC bullets available. Dan might think of the 200 RBBT wildcat bullets that wont stabilize in a 9 twist and suggests a 7 twist where your buddy, who has never heard of wildcat bullets has the 180 Bergers is mind. Your buddy gets the 7 twist as per Dan's recomendation, runs thin jacketed Bergers in it (which will desintegrate in a 3 groove barrel) and the problems begin. Now I certainly am not saying that is what went down. I was not part of the conversation. What I am saying is that there could be more to the story than appears on the surface. Some times mis-understandings and mis-conceptions happen. For the record, hot 7mm barrels can burn up and cause problems no matter what make, model, twist or groove type in 80-200 rounds. This is most likely a case where a good barrel maker is getting a bad name due to somebody else's caliber choice. I can honestly say with a fair amount of confidence that this most likely what went on there. I have been in nearly the exact same shoes using barrel burners. Just under 80 rounds was the magic number when the crap started to hit the fan. About 200 rounds later, things settled down a bit and would no longer shoot bullets worth a crap that did when it was fresh. It never did settle down completely but the changes slowed way down. After 500 rounds I gave up. However, before bashing the manufacturer publicly, I sent it to them, they re-lapped it, decided they didnt like what they saw and offered me a brand new one. Since the rock-well test came back perfect, I was 100% happy with the chamber and since it was a cut rifled barrel and not a button pulled barrel, I had them cut it out to .338 first. He still offered to send me a new one if it didnt shoot well. It shoots better than I do. Problem solved and I didnt have to ruin their reputation. I shouldnt have anyway, after all it was my poor choice of caliber as well as choosing to run top loads in it. For me it was a good lesson learned. I swallowed some pride and took the blame for what most would chalk up to a turd barrel and I know the barrel isnt or was never a turd as it is the same physical barrel yet yields different results due to the 338 bore being MUCH less 'overbore'. She has 220 rounds thought it and the hawkeye bore scope shows not one heat crack and the only throat errosion there is you have to really strain your eyes to see it where as before the throat was gone in less than 80 rounds. After 500 rounds the barrel was fire cracked over 1/2 way up and the first 3" looked like the grand canyon. In my mind this proves that it was my poor caliber selection and not the barrel in-and-of-itself that caused the problems. You choose to drink Schneider koolaid and we choose to drink another. What is woorking for you is well and good. What is working for the rest of us is well and good. But just because your buddy burned out a Lilja in short order doesnt make them turds. That would be like me judging Schneider barrels as pure crap because I chose a barrel burner cartridge and cooked it by the time I developed loads for it and it would no longer shoot. You also said that Lilja doesnt have a 3 groove button for anything other than a 7 twist which it 100% wrong. He offers 3 groove in 8 and 9 twist 284 barrels as well. If you dont like Lilja barrels that is your choice and I respect that 100%. To bash them in public without ever owning one and taking your buddies complaints at face value doest give you the right to bash them. There is always a flip side to every situation. It would be nice to see the other side of the coin.

That is the exact opposite experiences that I have had with both Hart and Lilja both in barrel quality, shootability and expertise. BTW, if your Hart truely is a junker, Hart will replace it. It is impossible for ANY barrel maker to produce a super accurate barrel with 100% regularity. Steel is steel and sometimes it just wont cooperate. Good barrel makers realize this and offer replacments for the occasional junker including Hart. Most of the time however, when a barrel is believed to be a junker it is improper installation of it or other components that make for a turd. For every 10 rifles that wont shoot about 2 of them will be due to turd barrels. Not saying you have not had a bad experience with Hart or Lilja, just offering another point of view. +1 Well said.

10# 3oz scoped (without bi-pod) It is a bit light for edge recoil. At least with 300 grain bullets. For this reason I switched to the 225's. The recoil is much more comfortable.

I think you are making a great decision and for the reason above. I had a hard time believing how good it really was because in the sport of longrange you hear how great something is and when you try it, you are left dissapointed and frustrated. Personally I think alot of guys just say it is awesome because they have so much time and money invested in something that they dont want to embarrass themselves. When I would hear about all the good things about the edge, I chalked it up to another 'too good to be true' senario. After stumbling into owning an edge, I was more than suprised to find that everybody was pretty spot on. Carlocks famous recipe of 92-94 grains of H1000 under the 300 SMK's supposedly offered supreme accuracy and super low velocity spreads. Some guys in more recent times were finding that 89-90 grains was working as 92-94 was too hot. Come to find out some of the newer lot#'s of H1000 were a touch faster than before. When I worked up my load for my edge, my sweet spot was 91.3 and have since found a sweeter spot at 89.5 grains. So, the famous load really is a good caliber specifec sweet spot. This saves time money and throat life by cutting down on the development. Starting at 87 or 88 grains and working up in .5 grain increments untill the sweet spot is found will work with 99% of the edges out there. Also when my brass was fresh, the velocity spreads were between 8-12 FPS for each 3 shot group. Once the necks get work hardened a bit and they become somewhat inconsistent, the velocity spreads become more like up to 20 FPS which still is not bad. Anealing the necks would solve this problem. In regards to bbl lengths, most would agree that 30" is the best all around length for an edge. I have never owned a 30" edge so I cannot say. Mine is 28" and she works good enough for me. I have ran the 300's as high as 2800 FPS but my optimum accuracy is 2725 which is about 75-100 FPS slower than what guys are finding optimum in their 30" tubes. Below is a pic of my edge. She shoots as good as she looks.

Shawn has an absolute rock solid reputation with his canyon rifles. There is not much of a need to work up loads for the his rifles. Somewhere between 89-94 grains of H1000 under the 300 SMK and youre in buisness. It is easy to get frustrated with 'local smiths'. More than one has had me yanking my hair out. If they would just put their machining where their mouth is everyone would be happy. The nice thing about Carlock's Edge is they are true and legitimate 1K yard elk rifles and are MORE than accurate enough to be a 1K coues rig as well. IMHO, a local smith may be able to build you what you want and it may shoot like a dream or they may leave you frustrated. While I have never owned a Defensive Edge rifle, I have never talked to anybody that has owned them have anything negative to say about them. If I had several grand to spend on a new package, the DE canyon rifle in an A5 stock and jewel trigger would be my #1 pick. M

My vote goes to the .243, 260, 708, 308. The 308 may be a bit stout on the recoil for a 7 year old but a 260 or 708 running 120's should be managable. If she hates the recoil, use a lighter bullet. While a 243 can down a mature elk, the 260 or 708 would offer a bit more forgivness. Either of those would be a good balance between shooter friendly and versitle/effective.

Actually it was (I forget exactally) somewhere around 40-45 degrees. 625 yards on a small target such as a coyote is nothing to sneeze at. That is some great shooting. 85 degrees would have been a truely phenominal shot. Another buddy last year near the end of the season could have taken a legitiment 85+ degree shot but decided to pass as he wanted a bigger ram. I would have had to have held his feet and he would have had to have tied a lanyard to the rifle. Even at only 150 yards, it would have been a super tough shot at best. It would have been cool but tough none the less.

Speaking of helping, when I had this 308 put together it wouldnt shoot worth a crap. I fired over 900 rounds (as per what was left of a brick of 1000 primers) trying every concievable powder, bullet weight, bullet type, primers, charge weights and combinations etc.....only to find that it was the rear portion of the action was about 14 thousanths of an inch out of wack in relation to the front which when the base was torqued to the action wouldnt allow the rings to be perfectly aligned which caused stress on both the scope main tube but also the action. Stress ANYWHERE in a rifle will not allow it to shoot worth a darn. Once I bedded the base so that it was mounted perfectly straight, the accuracy and consistency problems were solved 100% It was so bad that one day at the range during development, it shot a 4" group at 100 yards. This was the ultimate of depressing. Since then the very worst loads during development were 1 MOA with sweet spots in the .250 to .350 MOA. I am glad didnt wrap it around a birch tree like I wanted to many times.

Rifle specs are: Remington 700 completely trued, squared and smoothed. High speed lightweight firing pin. Wyatt extended box magazine (for seating bullets out further for max powder capacity). Badger bolt knob. Heavy recoil lug. Hart 26" 11x barrel in Sendero contour fluted. Match chamber. Pillar bedded McMillan HTG (M40A1) stock with integral accesories rail. Nightforce 40 MOA 1 peice base (bedded to action). Badger rings hand lapped. Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x50mm MLR reticle, Mil turrets + zero stop scope. Sniper tools angle cosine indicator. Anti cant device. My goto loads are: 1: 178 AMAX over 45 grains of VV N-540 @ 2753 FPS. (Solid .3 MOA) 2: 168 AMAX over 46 grains of VV N-540 @ 2830 FPS. (Solid .3-.4 MOA) 3: 190 SMK over 44 grains of RL-15 @ 2690 FPS. (Solid .3 MOA) 4: 200 SGK over (I forget) grains of VV N-550 @ 2650 FPS. (Solid .5-.6 MOA) 5: 208 AMAX over 48.0 grains of VV-N550 @ 2675 FPS. (.75 MOA) I strongly recommend to readers that you do as I did and start alot lower and work up to a max load and work backwards from there. DONT start at the charges above.

Lark, I use the 308 for simple reasons. 1st and foremost it's increadible accuracy. 2nd, I like to shoot ALOT. I go on binges where I will go to the range 6 or 7 times a week and then I might go 3 months where I only have gone 3-5 times in 3 months. The point is that since I like to shoot that much I require good loooooong barrel life. The 308 offers me both. After owing not one but 2 300 RUM barrels and burning them both out in short order I have scrapped the idea of flat shooting cartridges. With the advent of good laser rangefinders, I could care less about flat trajectories. What I do care about is extreeme accuracy and windage. Flat and wind drift dont always go hand in hand. Lazz inc. always bragged about how fast and flat his 308 warbird shoots and he is right, it is super fast and flat. However the wind drift of the light bullets he uses SUCK for wind drift. I have a 308 load with a super high BC (.648) that is 900 FPS slower than the 308 warbird yet has more energy AND less wind drift at 1000 yards despite dropping alot more. I also use a 338 Edge for serious long range hunting. This one offers the same trajectory as my 308 but with bullet BC's approaching .800, the windgae is rediculously small and hits like a pile driver. These two calibers work very well for me. Both my 308 and 338 have the same make and model stocks and similar weights so they feel the same on the firing line. I do most of my practice and hunting with the 308 and when I have a really large heavy or very tough target such as elk, moose and mountain goats that need 86ing, the 338 is called upon for duty and does it's job very well. When there is a sheep or deer that need lead treatment at potential distances of 1/4 to 1/2 mile, the 308 goes with me. Since most of the critters I chase around are sheep, deer, black bears, caribou and wolves, I spend most of my hunting time with the 308 in hand. It is my most trusted rifle and I am EXTREEMLY profficient, confident and comfortable with it. Besides, everything about it is designed for speed. I dont get traditional velocities out of it. I get ALOT more. Hope that helps!