308Nut

This is awesome cool! Never been able to see one till now. Its kind of ominous, my neighbor 3 doors down just got hauled off by the medical examiner. YIKES! What is it with abnormal moon patterns for the 2009 and 2010 December coues whitetail hunts? Last year the blue moon, this year a lunar eclipse. I hope all enjoy.

It has more to do with getting a shot at a calm critter at a distance than a spooked one up close. Retrieval is another subject. Understand that when the majority are talking about not being able to get closer, they are refering to getting closer withot being detected by the critter.

That is pretty cool. Thanks for sharing! M

Seems like this thread has become more of a laughing stock than it is usefull. Without being a smart a$$ its call diaphramatic breathing. If you cant figure that out, try beta blockers. You can buy those at your local pharmacy. OK I admit I was a smart a$$. Sorry. On a serious note. If my bubble is bouncing around like that I'll pass on the shot until I can get my nerves in order or until he walks out of sight which ever comes first.

Instead of using terms like 'inherently accurate' etc....I like to use words like user friendly and finicky or less finicky. Short stubby cases are less finicky than long slender ones. More efficient too. Short cases equal shorter actions which are more rigid which lends itself to better potential. That said, both the 30-06 and the 708 have great accuracy potential. IMHO, the 708 is easier to find good accuracy with and over a wider range of powders and bullets during load development. There is a reason that the 308 case and similar cases have long been a favorite among many match shooters and law enforcement agencies. Even with all that in mind, it is much more important to have quality rifle components and that they be assembled properly to ensure good accuracy. A less finicky case will not make a poor rifle shoot to match accuracy standards. M

What would be the recommended mounting style for that scope level? On the scope or on the rail? Honestly, it boils down to personal preference. M

Just for the record Lark, I totally respect your opinion here as well as undertsand it. Do I agree with everything? No, but thats OK. Like you say, we can agree to dissagree. Thank you for your insight and views. They are very thought provoking. Michael

Just remember Lark, the 'opinions' you speak of in your last post apply to you as well which is exactally what your last post is. Your opinion. I meen absolutly no dissrespect here either. Regardless, you cannot deny that there are hunters out there that could be doing a much better job by becoming less of a slob. Even if we are all on the same side. Would you be on my side if I shot at a deer standing 100 yards from your house that was directly in line with your grand child's house where I was 500 yards away from your house? The law says not to discharge a firearm within 1/4 mile of an occupied building. I would have broke no laws. I bet you would come outside ank kick my a$$. As well you should. How about an anti hunter's house? Slobs are slobs. They blacken all of our eyes. M

Thanks for sharing coues7! It is always nice to see it first hand.

One thing I would like to reinforce is that illustration found at that link shows two different illustrations. One is of one yardage versus another yardage of 400 yards and 280 yards (line of sight versus line of sight * cosine) and the chart is based on actual bullet drop * cosine. It is the actual bullet drop * cosine that is conciderably more accurate than yardage * cosine. Actual drop * cosine will keep you out of trouble most of the time where shooting for the line of sight yardage * cosine will cause misses. Tow very similar methods yet two very different results. The link below will back up what I am preaching here and was written by someone who actually has credentials. Please note, he uses similar illustations as found at the link in the previous post but he also explains the accuracy differences between these two different techniques. On that note I hate the many angular illustrations as they lead shooters to think that taking yardage * cosine is an accurate solution when it is not. It does a great job of showing the principals of why it happens but does a very poor job of showing accurate compensation. With added variables like scope height and bore angle, air density etc....it isnt as simple as line of sight yardage * cosine which is very contrary to popular belief. A small excerpt taken from the article below: "1) You spot your target. 2) Range / obtain the distance to your target by either utilizing a laser range finder or a ranging reticle. 3) Aim at your target and then look off to the side of your rifle at the Angle Cosine Indicator and obtain the indicated Cosine number. 4) Multiply the cosine number to the distance to your target, which will give you a corrected for gravity distance. For example, 500 yards X .7 (45 degrees) = 350 yards. Now, look at your data card to obtain your hold for the 350 yard target distance, and adjust your turrets as specified. However, this is the least accurate method." http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/angle-shooting.php Aside from the link above, other 'credible' references are the Sierra Reloading Manual (4th Edition) and Understanding Firearm Ballsitics by Robert Rinker. Not trying to me a jerk or a know it all, seriously just trying to help other coues whitetail fans succeed. M

I promise I am not trying to be a jerk or a know it all by posting this link below. I really do this because I want you ALL to succeed. That said, PO, I really feel that the link you posted that leads to 'downhill shot question' is very confusing and contains many a thoughts and ideas that will work against a hunter. Below is a link to an article on longrangehunting.com by Brien Ward about correcting for inclined shots. He is an Army Veteran and owner of Sniper Tools. He is spot on with his info. He lists 3 methods of correction. The first being the least accurate, the second being fairly accurate and the third method being the most accurate. Applying the info in that article will keep you all out of trouble and help you make an accurate hit on an incline. http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/angle-shooting.php Again, I am not trying to step om any toes, just trying to help you all succeed. Michael

Believe it or not, the fact that I have the ability to shoot far and have a natural inability to consistently get close to game has actually put me at a disadvantage a time or two. I have skunked a time or two because of this. My good friend and hunting buddy is very stealthy but not profficient at long range. This has been to his advantage a time or two as well. However, his inability to shoot long lead has been to his detriment a time or two. If that is not fair chase then what is? There is no right or wrong in the above. Just different abilities put to use when opprotunity knocks. It has been said, "Luck is where preperation and opprotunity meet." I guess I have just been lucky all of this time as has my buddy. It does'nt really matter. We both prepare, we both see opprotunity, we both capitalize on it. Call it hunting or call it shooting or whatever you want. It is all hunting AND shooting. Harvesting is the point where it is no longer hunting and involves shooting be it 1 yard, 100 yards or 1000 yards. If you have ever harvested an animal, you were a 'hunter' for a time and a 'shooter' for a time.

The temptation is too much for me to resist. As a dedicated LR shooter/competitor/hunter as well as an advocate of SKILLED long range huntting, I can honestly say I agree with the core and foundation of what you are saying Gino. Bottom line, if you cant make a first round hit on a kill zone sized target at a given range in practice, and then go out and disrespect a trophy animal by shooting at it at those ranges or beyond, you are a complete and true idiot, unethical bastard. Lark, I know you hate that word (ethical, as do I hate it). It is like the word luck. I dont belive in luck but sometimes there is no other word to describe what just happened. Maybe I should use the word irresponsible in lieu of unethical. If you feel hurt or offended by that statement, you probably are one of those who takes shots you KNOW you should not and have no buisness taking and I would hope the sting would cause you to re-think your approach to long range hunting. It takes years for a bull elk or buck to reach maturity. He survives year after year dodging hunters, predators, winters, competes for food and water for survival, fights for the right to pass on his genes, braves deep steep canyons, etc etc.......all to be shot at and likely wounded and lost by an idiot who bought a ****** rifle and ****** scope or whatever money hungry retailers make you believe in so they can earn your money. THESE ANIMALS DESERVE OUR RESPECT!!!!!!! Television shows are made just for appealing to hunters by shooting game at long range so they can sell you the latest and greatest rifle and scope that will turn you into a 1000 yard killer overnight. The truth is, whether its a old Reminton 788 in 7mm08 or the newest baddest 7mm, 300 RUM, 30-378 338 Lapua or what have you, it takes time, energy, money, burned out barrels and lots and lots of frustration to become a clean LR killer. I admit I use to have that mentality. Fortunately, I cleanly missed a small buck at 550 yards and that helped me to realize that there was more to this than I thought and I decided it would never happen agian by learning what I had to and practiced till my trigger finger fell off. That does not make me infallable, but the odds of clean LR kills are stacked in my favor. As far as this thread being fuel for the anti hunters, it is a sad reality. Unfortunately it is these irresponsible shooters out there that are fueling the fire. Openly and honestly talking about it may help shame and motivate even just one of these hunters to step up and learn how to be profficient with his weapon. In the end, a few trophies may be harvested cleanly and respectfully. Ethics are a touchy subject espescially with LR hunters. Like I said, maybe I and we, should use the words responsible and irresponsible. True LR hunters take pride in their abilities and are not ashamed to do what they do even in the face of ridicule from 'ethical' holyer than thou hunters who sleep better at night by telling us that we are not hunters at all and that we are nothing more than shooters. Which may be true to SOME extent, but I forget about who made the remarks or even the exact remarks after a few days. I will enjoy my trophies and never forget the memories of the hunt for the rest of my life! By whatever skills I used to collect them. However, (and I might get pitchforked for this) shooting beyond your abilities is irresponsible and wrong. Legal yes, right he!! no. Laws are black and white but principals are worth way more. The law does not prohibit an inexperienced shooter from taking a shot he cant make but the 'principals' of resposibility do. The law in AZ is you are not to discharge a firearm within 1/4 mile (440 yards) of an occupied building. This is a black and white law. If you are on a ridge 1/2 mile away from an occupied house and the buck of your dreams steps out 441 yards from the house (439 yards from you) dead straight between the line of your rifle and the house, do you take that shot? Is it legal? Is it morally wrong? Is it unethical? Is it irresponsible? If a stray bullet from your rifle kills a home occupant are you off the hook because the black and white law was not broken? Can you be prosocuted? Are you criminally negligent? Can I see a show of hands who here would take that shot..............A hunter or shooter who has good morals, sound principals, is responsible and has respect for life and property would not take that shot no matter how big a buck it is. Legal? Yes. Ethical? You decide. In my opinion, in the context of the illustration above, the mentality of 'if it is legal then it is ethical' is faulty thinking and reasoning. Unsafe actions that are legal is unethical. At least in my opinion. I openly admit I am guilty of not even attempting to get closer even when I know I could if the game is within my profficiency zone. I just lay down, set up and take the shot. I know I should always try to get as close as possible. I have no excuse. I appreciate that many or even most memebers here actually care about being responsible. Otherwise I would not hang out here. Unfortunately, I have had a few wounded losses (that were not vermin) over the years. I feel horrible about it and dont like talking about it. I say this to be open and fair. Also to illustrate that bad shots or losses happen even at short range. For the record, all of my losses were shot at 175 yards or less. I have not pulled the trigger on a big game animal between 175 and 763 yards that was not collected. I felt comfortable with each and every shot. I even passed up a black bear one day at 500 yards because I was not comfortable with the wind. When I was younger and more irresposible, I have taken hail marry shots. Shots I was not comfortable with. I always felt guilty for not showing the game the respect they deserve. This guilt is what led me into learning and practicing as well as attaing the right gear. Its an ugly subject at times. Lets not hide from it. Lets do what we can to help others see the principals and value of respect and resposibility and even accountability. Once we help them to see the value of those things, then we can help them on their shooting abilities. We have to help them see the values first before we help them on the shooting, then they will become dedicated on their own. I realize that I didnt really cover anything new here from what Gino already stated. This is just from another perspective. I will make no appologies for the statements above. I feel very stongly about the subject and stand by my comments. M

This year was actually my first time applying for the December tag, I guess I got lucky. I wish I could hunt as many days as you did. Did you end up getting one? Lucky is right. You dont know what you have. It took 8 points for me to draw my first December CWT tag last year. Your next one could be a while. Slow down and enjoy it. Savor the flavor. I was right next to pwrguy when he cropped his buck and was with him nearly every step of the way during his entire hunt. I missed the first few days. He nailed a really nice buck on the last day as he stated. We looked at some really nice bucks last year but never saw what he was looking for. I must say, he set his sights pretty high for the first 3/4 of the season. I think he made the right decision to hold out for as long as he did. What he didnt tell you is not only did he get his buck on the last day it was also the LAST hour. I wouldnt have it any other way. We were able to enjoy every bit of it. We could have ended it alot sooner but where would the fun be then? Scott Adams is right on the money. It was a good pass up buck. Congrats on the tag. A congrats will be in order when you tag out. Remember, it is not 'if' but 'when'. Stay positive and persistent. When it happens it will likely unfold VERY quickly. Stay ready. Enjoy! M

I also thought the RL line of powders was supposed to be temperature sensitive, but after more research and shooting it here, in AZ and in Africa in temperatures from about 30 degres to about 80 degress and finding no difference, I decided that wasnt true. Also, I have complete confidence in H4831sc and it is one of my go to powders. +1. RL powders have done great for me as well. I have actually gone out with loads of different temps and compared them over the chrony. Most shooters will tell you that the difference between 30 degrees and 90 degrees is minimal where once you get past 90+ degrees they are really hot. I have never tested them past 85 degrees so i cannot vouch for that. The bottom line is too many guys loose too much sleep over the topic. Find an accurate load and be happy. If the velcoity changes a bit, learn it and adjust for IF neccesary.

Thats the 1/12" twist for ya, which doesnt make sense why they would put that on and not a 1/10" all of the new 700 SPS Tactical rifles are 1:10 is the federal gmm the ones that shot =.5inch group According to Remington, some of them are 12x. (In reference to 308 Win) http://www.remington.com/products/firearms...s-tactical.aspx Open the 'Specifications' tab.

When my dad was trying out some different bullet types and weights he had one particular bullet that had tighter groups at 300 than it did at 100 yards. Could this be an example of what you are talking about here?? It can be. To the best of my knowledge, the only proven fact about bullets shooting better at long range versus close range is due to the yaw of response and settling down affect. One thing is for sure, many 1000 yard benchrest shooter will ALWAYS tell you to develop your 1k BR load at 1K yards and NEVER test at 100 yards. They know all too well that some loads will be phenominal at 1K and very average at shorter range. I asked an old army shooting instructor why some loads or bullets were more accurate at longer ranges than shorter ranges. His thought was that a given bullet had an optimum RPM for top accuracy. When they slowed to lesser RPMs they settled down. He illustrated using a spiral bound notebook. Once the bullets settled down, the spiral got smaller. Is that true? I dont know but it seems possible. Again, the only proven fact is yaw of response. Sierra claims that some bullets are designed for 100-600 yard shooting and some are designed for 300-1000 yards shooting. Sierra use to publish in their manual (they may still, I dont know) what the optimum accuracy ranges were for given bullets. What makes a bullet in and of itself more accurate at longer ranges by design is a mystery to me but I am sure Sierra's tech line can help if youre curious. I have had load that shot great at 100 but sucked at 600. I have had some that shot great at 1K and sucked at 100 and I have had some that shot the excat same MOA value from 100 all the way to 1K. Why? I dont know. I have my theories but I am not a physicist so I will refrain from spreading possible un-truths. M

I have taken several animals with the 168 SMK and the 190 SMK and at close range (250 yards or less) they work fair. After that they pencil hole right through. I personaly dont use SMK's anymore for hunting. Hornady AMAX are 'match bullets' that work awesome on deer size game out at longer ranges. They will however explode when shot at magnum velocities or when heavy bone is hit so you still have to be very carefull and selective. The accubonds in my opinion are about the best balance between accuracy and terminal performance. There are no magic bullets. AMAXs explode up close but open nice at very long range, accubonds open up nice at close and medium ranges and pencil at very long range. Choose wisely.

A few things to concider about twist rates. 1: It is bullet length that has the most affect on stability. In most cases, heavy bullets require more twist than light bullets but this is simply due to their length. To illustrate, an all copper bullet (200 grain/30 cal) requires substantially more twist than a jacketed lead 30 cal 200 grain bullet. This is because the specific gravity of copper is lower than jacketed lead. For the bullet to be 200 grains, it has to be longer. It is this length/weight ratio that is the major concideration when selecting the proper twist. 2: Speed comes into play a bit, but not as much as you might think. For example: Running the 208 grain AMAX in an 11 twist barrel at 2600 FPS yields a gyroscopic stability factor of 1.28. Bump it up to 3600 FPS and it becomes 1.43. By moving to the 12 twist it becomes 1.08 and 1.2 respectively. Going to the 10x they become 1.55 and 1.73. So, speed does come into play but you cannot substitute speed for twist. Raw RPMs by themselves do not cut it. 1.08 is getting close to unstable. 1.0 and above is concidered stable. If you have a load that has a stability factor of 1.05 at 5000' in 80 degree air, you can bet that at 1000' in 30 degree air that the SG will be below 1.0 and unstable. 1.3 to 1.5 is generally accepted as optimum. This way they are not way overspun and they are not at risk of becoming unstable in a changing enviornment. 3: Excessive spinning for longrange shooting may or may not hurt you but it will not help you. The exception to that rule is in SOME circumstances, excessive twist can help a bullet stay stable after it hits the transonic wall. There are many factors that come into play for a bullet surviving the transonic zone and it is VERY unpredictable. That said, bullets tend to increase stability as they travel until they go subsonic. There is no need to spin them to oblivion to ensure they reach the target stable. They either are stable or they are not. This is not to be confused with what some refer to as the yaw of response. In other words, they may wobble a bit when they exit the muzzle and 'settle down' later. This is not instability. Ballistic coefficients can be negatively affected by too much spinning as can running them on the ragged edge on the low side. When spun properly, the BC will be at its best albiet we are talking a VERY small amount. Not even enough to make it a big concideration unless 2000 yards is the objective. Using a twist that is tighter than needed is less of a problem from an accuracy standpoint when mono metal bullets are used and it is more critical when jacketed bullets are used. If there are any jacket concentricity issues, accuracy can suffer and the faster you spin them, the worse it gets. With mono metal bullets, there are no concentricity isses. The next negative is the amount of spin drift that occurs. You cannot eliminate spin drift but you can minimize it. One of the easiest ways to minimize it is to not spin your bullets any more than you need to. Even with all of that in mind, I dont lose alot of sleep over twist rates. Get a twist for the longest bullet you will be shooting at the velocity you will be using and be happy. If you want to shoot shorter bullets, so be it. They may not be perfectly optimum but optimum enough. If we were talking 1000 yard bench rest rifles here, it would be different. For hunting rifles, even longrange hunting rifles, it isnt nearly as big a deal. Most ballistic software has twist rate calculators. I also believe JBM online ballistics has a twist rate calculator. They take into account the bullet's material, length, weight, overall design, caliber, altitude, temp, humidity, etc.......and will generate the best twist value. Below is a link to Lilja's web page that has available for download a twist calculator. It is quite cumbersome but if used properly can get you pretty close. Shoot straight!

Right in the heart of Anchorage. Come on up! Seekins also makes lighter weight rings. http://www.seekinsprecision.com/index_p.php?p=rings

They arent cheap but the nightforce ultralight rings are awesome. They are very light and very strong. The Seekins base is also very light and very strong.

Without factoring premature death from predators, hunters or thieves, what is the life expectancy of a coues buck on average? In other words, how many years do they live before they die a pure old age?

Acually, with 20, 30 and 40 MOA bases, it moves the inner tube away from the center at closer ranges and more center at longer ranges. The real purpose of the angled bases is to buy you more MOA worth of travel for longer ranges. When the scope is mounted level, you risk running out of adjustment for a long shot. With 20 MOA bases, you can adjust the scope 20 MOA further down for your zero to buy you an extra 20 MOA worth of adjustments. With a level base, MOA capabilities are wasted. If you want a high quality base for a reasonable price, look up Seekins Precision. They make awesome 1 piece bases for 100 bucks. It is money well spend. Dont skimp on the base. It is one of two CRITICAL links between your scope and rifle. For the record, I am a firm believer in 1 peice bases bedded to the action. Without those 2 things, the possibility for stress to exist on both the scope and action are very high.

I typically test my loads hot and cold, average out the FPS/degree loss or gain and adjust my calculator velocity input for the corrected velocity based on the current temp.

Truely a magnificent specimen.