308Nut

22S early bull muzzleloader!! YEAH!!!! I know how you all feel about the 22's for elk........For me, I like tough hunts with tough odds. Besides, I saw a nice looking bull when I was down there coues hunting who is in desperate need of becoming a wall mount and a freezer full of meat. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!! Congrats to all who drew.

Holy crap!!! That thing is sick! I hate to admit this but I am sooooo jealous.....I think my keyboard may be ruined from all the drool. Looks like by the picture names it is a 284 Shehane? Please feel free to share some specs. Thanks for sharing!

For once I will agree with you here! I am a 'nut' and I could not be more proud of it. I never have denied being a nut as I have better things to do with my spare time. You do know what 'nuts' like to do in their spare time right? I have alot of spare time and a very vivid imagination....or fantasies depending on how you look at it......every once in a while they even breathe life. If you fully realize someone is a nut job, why would you engage them? And you call us stupid! Do yourself a favor and dont annoy the crazy nut jobs around you. You will sleep better at night. Just a friendly peice of advice from one hunter to another. Regards,

Mike Degerness at ABS barrels had Danny bore out and re-rifle my 300 RUM barrel to 338. He did a fair job. I say fair because when barrels are 'cut rifled' the are pretty rough. They are then lapped smooth. When dealing with an existing finished barrel, they cannot be lapped without major risk of damage to the end of each end of the barrel. It was pretty rough when I got it back but I will say that it broke in fairly well. In the end, he did a decent job for what he had to work with. I was a little dissapointed in the way he touched up the crown and while the neck was re-cut from the throat to the shoulder concentric, it was a tad rough as well. All that said, the barrel shoots very well. I did have a local smith re-cut the crown.

You can add me to the list that does not care for shilen barrels. Shilen can put out a great barrel. They can also turn out a turd. They still sell them instead of scrapping them. Their very best barrels that turn out with the best tolerences go to well known BR and match shooters. The rest go to you and I. Of the 3 you listed, it would be hard to beat either a Hart or a Kreiger. I have only had one Kreiger and that rifle did not shoot worth a crap. I dont know that it was the barrel though. I suspected that there were other factors at play. My vote goes to Hart though. Very good people to deal with and top notch barrels. The only 3 barrels I really care about is Lilja, Hart and Bartlein. Not than others are sub standard just that a guy can get overloaded with all of the great choices. Those 3 have some of the best reputations in the industry. After using some of them, I understand why the good reputations.

1 Mil = 3.6" at 100 yards (3.44 MOA), 7.2" at 200, 10.8" at 300 etc.....Take 3.6 and muliply that by distance divided by 100. 3.6 * (300/100) = 10.8". Also, 3 Mils at 100 yards = 10.8" or 10.32 MOA.

If a game department want to increase buck trophy potential, they should go with a 'spike' only rule for a few years. After a few years many of the lesser genes are gone and first year bucks will be 2 point bucks making them illegal. After a few years of spikes getting harder and harder to find, viola. The goal is to weed out the ones you dont want. That cannot be done with a 3 or 4 point rule. I will use Washington and Alaska as an example: Some number of years ago there were some areas in Washington that were changed from branch antlered bull elk to spike only. After 10 yards or so there were not a whole lot of spikes to go around. Most of the first year bulls were forked and there was a whole host of mature trophy bulls available. At first the sportsmans bi^@$! and moaned but after about 10 years they were all pretty happy with the results. In Alaska, we have a 'full curl' rule for dall sheep. The idea was so that the resource would be protected. Only mature males would be harvested and younger 'illegal' rams would take their place. The problem is that full curl rams are becoming MUCH more difficult to find. This is because the full curl genes are being wiped out. We can still shoot sub full curl rams IF they are age legal (8+ years). Many times you cannot judge age legal rams in the field on the hoof. We can also shoot broomed rams. The problem there is that it takes a full curl to put their horns in a place where it can get a broom. From a trophy percpective, the full curl rule DOES NOT work.

You're right! What goes around comes around. That goes for you too. Some day those words will ring in your ears. It is not if but when....Someday you may be the one in the hot seat. You can never go wrong giving someone the benefit of the doubt unless there sufficient evidence to suggest otherwise. Rumors and heresay DO NOT count. I will NEVER appologize for giving someone the benefit of the doubt when the accusations have no merit. If later, it comes out that an accused indavidual actually did commit a crime, then the doubt is gone. The fact remains, I will sleep better at night knowing they were judged and convicted AFTER the evidence was gathered and done before they were hung. Your mentaility of hang before conviction will get you into trouble someday. Probably sooner than later Remember, 'what goes around comes around'.

mc, from one hunter to another, you really are wrong here. Period. You cannot have any trustworthyness here by even bringing up a rumor that has no backing. If you have your ideas and NO validation for it, then keep it to yourself. Even if the rumor was true, which I am not saying it is, if you have no way to back it up then shut it up. How would you like it if the roles were reversed. Let's say that some one suggested on this site, a public forum which is a rare find to have one so well balanced and calm and respectable accused you of shooting a 130" coues buck the evening before the opener? Put yourself is his shoes. In all honesty, you have only propagated a rumor. Even if there was a violation, unless you saw a violation first hand or had any proof, you should give him the benefit of the doubt. It is a gestopo mentality to hang them before they are convicted or even propagate any rumors for that matter. If you have any validity to your accusation, then take it up with AZGFD not propagate it here. I hope you will do the right thing and publicly appologize to Chimichanga. I have no dog in this fight, but I do have alot of respect for everybody here including you and hope that you as well as everybody else will repect every body else here. This is a great site and it would be ashame to chase off new members with crap like this. We need all the members we can get and need to stick together unless it is proven that someone is a game law violator. Key word here 'proven'. You know, I also thought it was strange that it took 11 years to draw an 8 or 9 bonus point tag. You can still give him the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because I did the same thing. It took me 8 years to draw a 6 bonus point tag because I could not afford to apply for 2 years yet I still 'say' that it took me 8 years to draw. I still had to wait 8 years. Just a thought. Just my point of view. Take it or leave it. Regards,

I don't always explain things well. I'm glad you're around to make it clear! I have long wanted to try the GS Custom bullets, but at $2 a bullet, they are out of my price range... You're right though, the low weight for velocity, pushed by R17 which seems to be the perfect powder for the 308 Win case capacity (so far anyway), plus the relatively high BC is a recipe for a serious look. They used to advertise their BC in the 7s but have recently made revisions. One thing, they say these 177s won't stabilize with slower than 1:10" twist. Please keep us updated as to your findings. I could very well develop a hunting load with these and use "shelf" bullets just for general practice and range shooting. I will keep you posted on the 177's. I should have my new barrel in a week or two. It is a 10x barrel. I plan on using the 178 AMAX and 208 AMAX's for general shooting to save coin like you are talking about. I will still use the 208's as a sheep/deer/antelope load. They drift about the same (just a hair less) and hit quite a bit harder as well as open at lower velocities. I would like to use the 177's for black bears, elk and moose at medium ranges when I dont feel like lugging the Edge around. Even though it is only a pound and 1/2 heavier, I notice that extra 1.5# on long pack trips. Plus it is a bit bulkier with the longer barrel and much larger scope. The 308 is much more user friendly on the long back pack trips.

That is great info Good. I am in 100% agreement with you. Just to reinforce, high BC bullets are less affected by all of the elements including ballistic inconsistencies such as higher extreme velocity spreads. Granted, there is no substitute for low ES, a high BC bullet can help. Like you said, the big issue is windage. Nobody should care anymore about flat trajectories. That is why we have laser rangefinders. Whether you adjust 40 clicks or 50 clicks it doesnt really much matter. Flat trajectory and minimal wind drift rarely go hand in hand. I will use the 308/208 versus the 308 Warbird. Before I get into that, let me say that equal bullet for equal bullet and max velocity potential for each, the 308 Warbird will always win hand down. That said, if you take the factory loaded 308 Warbird ammo with the 168SMKs (3500 FPS) and run it against the 308/208 combo (2600 FPS) you will find the Warbird's trajectory looks like a lazer line and the 308's trajectory looks like a rainbow. Now to reinforce the importance of BC's as Good has pointed out, let's compare the energy and windage down range. the 308/208 combo retains 975 pounds of energy at 1K and 71" of drift with a 298" drop. The Warbird retains 971 pounds and 73" of drift with 191" of drop. Is there enough difference here to worry about? No. For all practical purposes (ballistically that is) they are equal at 1K. This is just to illustrate how valuable a high BC is when it comes to wind and energy retention. The fact that two different cartridges of the same bore diameter can be fired 900 FPS apart and they can both be equal at 1K. Flat trajectories dont always mean less drift. When looking at the price of reloading that Warbird and the super short throat life in the barrel, I can live with a rainbow trajectory. Which brings me to the 338's running the 300 Berger. A legitimate BC of over .800 offers you over 2000 pounds of energy and LESS than 50" of drift in a full 10 MPH cross wind. Go up to 5000' for a coues hunt and they become almost 2400 pounds and 39" of drift. 39" in a 10 MPH wind is stupidly minimal. Take that fact coupled with the fact that I choose not to shoot at game when the wind is blowing that fast. Most of the time, shots are taken in 3-7 MPH and they are ussually at an angle other than 90 degrees. So let's look at the middle of the road. 5 MPH with a 4:30 wind. The value becomes 14". Now let's say that 1/2 way to the target a lull in the wind or a gust happened. You may have a 2-3" +/- variance. This is still within an acceptable kill zone. At 14", you would'nt even have to hold off the animal. Now it starts to look do-able and ethical hugh? Currently I have some 30 cal 177 grain bullets on order from a company called GS custom bullets. IF they work as advertised, they would be the ultimate 308 winnie bullet. Expansion at 1500'/sec and a .6+ BC. The numbers do seem a bit too good to be true but I will always try almost anything once. If they are full of crap then it was money well spent. If they are great, then it is even better money spent. Kind of like when you loan somebody 20 bucks and you never hear from them again, then it was worth it!

When I am load developing, I like to clean every 20 rounds or so. How ever many you decide on, after it has been cleaned, you will need to run a couple of foul shots using the same powder AND bullets that you will be testing before you begin your tests. Let cool after fouling and fire your 3 shot groups. As mentioned, let it cool completely before trying another group. If you switch to a different bullet manufacturer or type of bullet or type of powder, you will want to start from a clean barrel and foul with those components. Once I have a good load, I will only clean as often as the rifle tells me to or before switching to a different load. As far as seating depths, I dont typically play with that very much. On the lands, off the lands etc.....It's generally not that big a deal espescially when using a factory Remington which has a ton of freebore to begin with. Some bullets can be finicky and will help some more than others. If you start with the standard SAMMI OACL and can only milk close to acceptable accuracy but not quite acceptable, then it may be time to play with the depths. Take your best load and run them .020" out and see if that makes a difference. If not, run them out another .020 so on and so forth. If you have a max load at SAMMI lengths where your rifle has alot of freebore and then run them into the lands, high pressures will likely happen. If you have a max load .020" off the lands to begin with and then jam them into the lands the difference is VERY minimal. Minimal enough to not have to worry about it. Before all of that though, you should start with a given bullet and a given powder. Keep everything to SAMMI specs. Run ladder tests. If you cant find a load under 1 MOA then try the same bullets with a different powder. After 3 powders, try another bullet with the same 3 powders. After that, take your best and try and fine tune it. Up and down .2 of a grain, seating depth and even neck tension using an S type bushing neck sizing die with different size bushings. You should have at least .002 neck tension. Optimum accuracy will vary from load to load and rifle to rifle. Start with .002 and work up to .005. Make sure your primer flash holes are de-burred, primer pockets uniformed, case mouths chamfered, etc...... Be sure and test your best loads at 200 or better yet, 300 yards before you give up on them. It happens quite often that a 1 MOA 100 yard load can be a real gem of a load at 300 yards. If after all of that you still are not happy, it may be time to invest in a custom barrel. Keep us posted.

OCW stands for 'optimum charge weight' Take note of the 3 groups with bold arrows pointing at them. 46.0 was the best group during this ladder/OCW test. If you notice, the center of the groups from the 45.5 and 46.5 charges are nearly identical to the center of the 46.0 load where the rest of the loads have a center of group that is further away. The plus sign represents the center of the 46.0 load is in reference to each other group. The circles indicate where the center of the actual group is. The closer the circle is to the plust sign the better. Notice how the circle and plus sign with the 45.5 load is dead on in the exact same spot as 46.0 in relation to their targets. This is a good 'harmonic node'. This is what you are looking for. Typically, when you change your charge weight, the groups will shift in relation to the target center. When a good harmonic node is found, groups of slightly different charge weights will hang in the same spot. The 45.0 group is further to the right than the 45.5, 46.0 and 46.5. After these, they begin to move further to the right. With every 1/2 grain increment, the groups move to the right. Also notice how the 48.0 load has opened way up. This illustrates how far out of the harmonic node that bullet/powder/charge weight has become. Sometimes you have to take these kind of results with a grain of salt. After you find your OCW, you should load some more up and go back to the range. If you can duplicate the group or close to it, then it has proven itself. After shooting a 5 shot group the next day using 46.0, the groups measured just over .3" at 100 yards. That told me that it was the real deal. a few days later, 700 yards told the end of the tale. 5 bullets in a 4" group.

That is beyond awesome!! Not so much that he had to pay 300 bucks for them but for the fact that at least he got the trophy that he deserved.

A button is a tool shaped like the indside you your rifle barrel only in reverse. They call this tool a 'button'. Dont quote me but I think it is made out of either tool steel or carbide. It gets pulled through a smooth bore a little bit smaller than the caliber diameter that the barrel will be and this button 'displaces' the steel to form the grooves. It removes no metal. The lands are pretty much left with the same diameter as the original bore. After it gets pulled, the barrel gets turned down to the desired contour, fluted if specified by the customer. While these processes take place the internal diameter will grow a bit. This is why they start out with a smaller diameter to begin with coupled with the fact that when they get hand lapped, the ID also grows as a minor amount of steel gets removed from the lapping proccess. They guage the barrel before and during the lapping proccess and lap accordingly. They are actually lapped into specs. Any of the very good barrel makers tolerences are .0001" (one ten thousandths of an inch) uniformity from breach to muzzle. They typically make the very end of the muzzle just a scosh tighter than the rest of the bore. Somewhere during all of this, they 'stress relieve' the barrel. Some 'double stress relieve' them. Most makers are VERY tight lipped about when, where and how they do this. Button pulling IMHO is a far better way to make a barrel than hammer forging. Maybe hammer forging isnt such a bad proccess as it is how the high productivity manufacturers go about it. They come onto and off of an assembly line at very fast rates. I have looked at brand new Remington barrels with a borescope and as much as I love Remingtons, I have to say the inside of their barrels look like corn on the cob. Looking at custom barrels is like looking at an upper end Mercedes or BMW versus a Ford Fiesta. It is truely night and day difference. There are many arguments as to which is better. Cut or button. Cut barrels definately take more lapping to smooth them out. Button pulled barrels are very smooth to begin with. They are probably smoother when the get pulled than after they are lapped. Barrels that are too smooth actually copper foul much worse than when they are lapped with the right grit. If they are too rough they foul bad and if they are too smooth they foul even worse. This is because when you have a ultra mirror finish, there is more surface area that 'grips' the bullet. The result is copper fouling. After using too much JB bore cleaner in too many barrels it has become evident that this principal is true. JB actually is the best cleaner IMO, but it also 'polishes' the metal. After it starts to polish the bore, they definately copper foul alot more than when they are new. I have sworn off using JB. Both Hart and Lilja (both regarded as two of the very best in the buisness) do NOT recommend the use of JB or similar products like Flitz or Iosso. They dont damage the bore so to speak, they just polish them. Unfortunately, that leads to more copper fouling. The bottom line is when it comes to accuracy, you would not be able to tell the difference between a cut barrel or a button barrel by shooting it. It is hard to go wrong with either as long as it comes from a top end maker. Lilja, Hart, Bartlien, Kreiger, Rock Creek, Broughton, Brux all make premium barrels. I like Lilja and Hart and in that order. I typically end up with a Hart though. They deliver very quick, they are awesome people to deal with and they dont offer standard, match and select match like many others from defects during the manufacturing procces. The barrel either turns out as a premium barrel or ot goes into the recycle barrel plain and simple. There are no second best barrels. I like that approach and mentality. Dan Lilja is also an awesome guy to deal with. I hope that helps!!

Running top end loads in my last 300 RUM barrel, the throat torched out in just under 70 rounds. It steadily just got worse and worse. After nearly 500 rounds I finally threw in the towel and said to he!! with it and had it re-bored to the 338 Edge. After toying with a big 338, I cant see ever looking back at a big 300. More energy, less wind. So far, over 400 rounds without any noticable throat errosion or heat checking when examined through the Hawkeye borescope. I could see using a 300WSM or even a Win mag but that is about it. M 70 Rounds....man that's quick. I hope mine lasts longer. If it doesn't I might become an Edge convert too. One interesting observation between factory and custom barrel in regards to the 300 RUM, it seems like the factory barrels last a bit longer. They are pretty rough to begin with. They actually 'wear in' and smooth out. They get better before they get worse. Using a premium custom, they are lapped to near perfection. Shooting them is not going to help them with any appreciable difference. They have only one place to go and that is down hill. When you ram rod bullets out of them at or near the 3400+ mark with nearly 100 grains of powder, they ussually go down hill pretty quick. Shoot a more balanced cartridge and they will last quite a long time. Another large variable is barrel manufacturering proccess. Button pulled barrels have a reputation for standing up against barrel burners better than cut rifle barrels. The 'theory' is that when the button is pulled and the metal is displaced, it has a forging effect on the bore. Cut barrels are just that. Material is cut out of the bore to form the grooves. Having had 2 custom 300 RUM barrels, one cut and one button pulled, the button pulled barrel lasted quite a bit longer than the cut. 100% longer in fact. The throat still degraded very quickly but at twice the rounds fired. I had about 900 rounds in it before I called it quits. In both rifles, both of them continued to increase pressure and velocity over the life of the barrel. In the beginning, these increases happened VERY fast. For the cut barrel it started just under 70. Every thing was fine until then. After that I fired a few shots that steadily got faster until one shot and locked the bolt down and the velocity was off the chart (180 AB @ 3500FPS). A look through ny smith's bore scope showed the throat had erroded pretty badly. I had to reduce the charge a full 5 grains to keep the bolt from getting sticky. According to the barrel maker, the pressure and velocity came from the extra friction in the throat area. I kept having to drop powder charges every 20 rounds untill I hit 200 rounds. Then things settled down and I had to only drop a few tenths here and there every 60 or 70 rounds untill I gave up on it. Factory rifles are typically 'hammer forged'. My opinion is that part of the reason they last a bit longer is this reason coupled with the fact that they are rougher and wear in so to speak before they wear out. I had a cut barrel maker tell me that since both cut manufacturers and button pulled manufacturers 'stress' relieve their barrels after they are rifled that it did not make a bag of beans worth a difference, but there is an undeniable tack record of button pulled and factory barrels lasting longer than cut barrels when used with hyper velocity magnums among the longrange match, BR, hunter crowd. The barrel maker inspected the barrel and found that it was normal for a 300 RUM but found some other defect he had a hard time explaning. He said the rockwell test came back perfect and offered to replace it due to the defect. Hence the reason for the 338 Edge. M

Running top end loads in my last 300 RUM barrel, the throat torched out in just under 70 rounds. It steadily just got worse and worse. After nearly 500 rounds I finally threw in the towel and said to he!! with it and had it re-bored to the 338 Edge. After toying with a big 338, I cant see ever looking back at a big 300. More energy, less wind. So far, over 400 rounds without any noticable throat errosion or heat checking when examined through the Hawkeye borescope. I could see using a 300WSM or even a Win mag but that is about it. M

I will TRY and stay out of the caliber debate. What I will say is that the nature of coues bucks require high BC bullets if you are going to hunt them at longrange. The fact that they live in areas where the wind is very unpredictable and hardley ever still coupled with the ridiculously small vital zone, high BC bullets are where it is for those buggers. That said, I would be looking for 168-180 7mm pills, 208-210 30 cal pills, and 300 338 cal pills. The 338 may be concidered 'overkill' for coues bucks but the awesome real world results of the 300 grain pills is a real eye opener. They dont eat barrels quite like the 7mm either.

Sorry! Maybe 'take note of' is a better choice of words. listen to is a bit much. Many a words and advice has come back to bite me. It is a very humbling experience and often times leads to the eating alot of sour crow soup. I am facing the possiblity of eating some crow soup over at LRH.com as we speak. Next week, when I get my rifle back from my smith I will conduct a test and an experiment to verify if there is any validity to my 'observations' or if I have been making some pretty sizable mistakes for the past (10+ years). Hopefully the reality lays somewhere in the middle. M

+1 You dont have to spend a fortune on a decent stock either. Most factory stocks make great boat paddles. That said, if you can float it and bed it your self, it may be worth a try. If you had to invest much coin into it, invest it in something worth while.

There are so many possible explanations here. Floating the stock cant hurt it. Bedding it couldnt hurt it either but I would try floating it first. If it ends up being more of the same, I would say try a different bullet or powder or both. You can burn a barrel to ashes arguing with it about what powder and bullet to use. You HAVE to listen to what the rifle is telling you. Dont argue with her, just submit to what it shoots best. You may want to use the 168 Berger and H1000 but if the rifle wont digest them well, you will have to live with the lack of accuracy. If it will be used as a deer/antelope rifle, try the 162 AMAX. IMHO, the AMAX bullets are more consistent and are not near as finicky as the Bergers. The 162 has a legit BC .625+. The published is .625, Bryan Litz of Berger Bullets tested it and averaged it out at over .625. They open up great on deer but would not want to hit something thick and hard like an elk with it. I would'nt want to do it with a Berger either despite what I see on TV. Nothing wrong with H4831 either. Dont worry about your velocity. Focus on accuracy. With the super high BC bullets we have these days, you dont need super high velocities. Also, it never hurts to try a couple different primers too. Federal 210 GMM and 215 GMM, CCI BR2 and CCI250's would be worth a shot. (no pun intended). Other than that, make extra sure your scope mounts are straight. I burned a barrel half way through it's usefull life trying to figure out why it would not shoot worth a crap only to find that my mounts were not right. Hope that helps. Keep us posted.

Ooooooppppsssss!!!!! You're absolutely right! I meant Wards!

Congrats Wards. Nicely done. And a hats off to you for getting him out there and shooting enough for confidence and proffiency. We cannot always control our hunting senarios but we sure can control how ready we are to capitalize on a good opprotunity.

Dont take this the wrong way but after a recent and sometimes semi heated thread in the campfire ('its been bugging me'), what type of response did you really expect here? I mean no disrespect. Just curious.

I have tried to help you see through my eyes in other threads. That said, I have had no intentions of starting a fight and I did not take your comments as a fight either. Again, I totally respect AND admire that you get so close. Having done it myself, I understand where you are coming from. To answer your question yes I feel that IF done cleanly and skillfully it is fair and sportsmanlike. What is not sportsman like is when a hunter KNOWS that shooting 1000 yards is beyond THEIR limits and THEY do it anyways. Resposible and sportsman like go hand in hand. If a hunter takes the responsible approach and acts within his limits AND winthin the law then he is sportsman like. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ To see it through my eyes you just have to know that everybody in this world has things that they just love to do. Some things 'just do it' for indaviduals. Kind of like brunettes are just more attractive to some guys than blondes. Why? Your guess is as good as mine but thats the way it is. Brunettes with shapely legs 'just do it' for me where the stereo typical blonde with big OO just dont get my blood pumping like the former. If you have ever been fishing and enjoy fishing, it is like a drug. The sound of the water, the smell of fresh air, the swirl of the water when a fat fish rises to nail a fly, and that unbelievable feeling when a fish strikes your lure or bait and the sensation of the of the fish tugging and feels almost like a vibration at times, when he dances on the water and the water dropletts are splashing in every direction reflecting the sunlight like diamonds and when successfully landed, you realize how amazingly pretty a trout or salmon really is the way they glimmer in the sunlight. You are instantly gratified knowing your trip was successfull and you have food for the table and memories for a lifetime. For me when it comes to longrange shooting and hunting, it is like a drug. From a shooting standpoint every time I pull the trigger I get the sensation that is like breaking a glass sliver with my trigger finger knowing that as a male full of testosterone and who enjoys hard work that I can still display finesse and self control. It just feels good. All of the stress I have had for that day or recent days is channelled down that barrel and dissapears with the cloud of burnt powder. It is the sound of the bullet's supersonic crackeling as it speeds towards the target and the pop sound when the bullet strikes a steel target knowing that I did everything right. It is the smell of the fresh air while being out at the range that gets interupted with the smell of burnt powder. It is the challenge of judging and even reading the wind and judging where the target really is and not where it appears to be due to mirage. It is judging how the sun angle or lack of sun is going to affect my perception of where the target is in relation to where my zero was last. It is reading the barometric pressure and temperature and adjusting accordingly because yesterday it was hotter and the pressure was higher. It is the challenge of experiencing something that does not make sense and experimenting and researching physics as to why this phenomenon is happening. It is the challenge of complex mathematical equasions and applying them to make a surgical shot. It is the gratification that I can do something very few people can do with any regularity. I know that sounds self centered and it is but that is the way it is. From a hunting standpoint, it is also like a drug. It is glassing for hours and days to find 'the one', finally finding him and my mind automatically goes to work and becomes intensely focused. How bad is the mirage, how bad is the wind? What is the wind doing? Where is he going to walk? Do I have time to set up and make this shot? Is it too far? Do I need to get closer? Do I have time to get closer? Then when the shot is deemed acceptable, it is the range finding over and over to make sure I have him and not a bush. It is the act of monitering the wind. What can I use to judge the wind? Today I have mirage to help judge. Yesterday I only had a knowledge of how wind traditionally follows various landscapes. The day before I had cotton wood seeds moving through the air. The day before that I had fog moving through the canyon to help. Were they consistent wind patterns? Can I use the few days patterns to understand what the wind is doing today? Then the gadgets come out. The weather station, the wind meter, the ballistic calculator, the angle indicator. then the challenge of trying to type in the variables into my pocket ballistic calculator while my hands are shaking. The anticipation of getting everything right before he feeds his way out of sight or range. The challenge of clearing rocks and or brush to make a suitable place to lay and sometimes having to get creative because my front rest is too short or the stock is too high for adequete support. Then after ALL variables are accounted for and I have adjusted for them is the waiting game. The anticipation of him turning to just the right angle, for the wind to settle into where I set my scope for, trying to control my breathing and nerves. The fact that I see the whole animal in all his glory along with the background and setting 'just does it' for me. Rather than looking at merely just fur up close. The light glimmering off his horns, the female that just ran away cause she is tired of being pestered by the rutting male, the colorfull bird that just flew through my sight picture, then settling my finger gently on the trigger and begining to squeeze softly while mentally imagining a clean shot going off, the imagery of follow through and that the rifle will not hurt me. There is no need to flinch. Then I am envisioning the hammer dropping and the game folding. Then to my suprise, BANG! The feeling of relief when the bullet is finally on it's way. The crack of the bullet in mid flight, recovering from the recoil and getting a line on the game once again just in time to see the last bit of vortex in the air left by the bullet as I watch it drop into the chest cavity of my inteded target and watching what happens next be it fold or run a few yards. These things 'just do it' for me. The victory and satisfaction of knowing all of my preparation has payed off. Not only so the animal didnt suffer but knowing I just pulled off a shot that most hunters only get to dream about as well as put meat on the table. Many people will still not understand this. For me it is simple. Mentally, I need challenges regularly. Otherwise I get bored fast. My mind runs 100 miles per hour most of the time and everyday mundane things make me insanely bored. I am a VERY methodical type of person who also is an extreme perfectionist. Long range hunting and shooting offers me both. This is why it is so satisfying to me. Watching a perfectly calculated shot drill the middle of the target despite the fact that the wind and air density is totally different today than it was yesterday is beyond gratifying for me. To know that the math was done right and the varibles were compensated for as well as knowing I held my rifle just right and squeezed of a clean shot. Many hunters often say that longrange hunters are lazy and that is why we shoot game way out there. I would like to see those critics get out of bed at 5:00 am and drive for an hour to get to a good shooting spot early before the wind kicks in to get an experiment done. The countless hours spent working extra to be able to afford bullets, powders, rifles, scopes and the gas to drive 100 miles round trip to get to suitable place to shoot and the countless hours driving, shooting, reloading, testing, experimenting, and researching physics or ballistics. Worst of all spending countless hours cleaning rifles after shooting the piss out of them. If that is not hard work, I would like to see what hard work is. Sure, anybody can go out on any given day and get on a small target at 1000 yards after shooting several sighters. The real challenge here is to be able to hit a 10" target with ONE bullet. First round PRECISION long range shooting is not easy and is very challenging. For me, it is my drug.