308Nut

You will get 100 different answers on this subject. The fact is, every barrel is a bit different. You will need to listen to what the barrel is telling you. The basic guidlines in the links posted above are good places to start. Dont over do it with the amonia based solvents and avoid JB or IOSSO unless it is an emergency. Even then dont over do it. sjvcon is right on with the bore guides. I also use the Lucas guides. They are not cheap and they take a while to get but they are cheaper, easier to get than a new barrel because it became ruined from impropper cleaning. Let us know how it turns out.

Sooner or later that 9th life for every cat comes to a close. Looks like he went through his 9 fairly quickly....

I have used both and dont have a preference. For my SFP scopes: If my scope is on anything but max power, then I am close enough to the target to not be concerned with hold over values. Other than that, it is on max, which for the 22x is where the hold overs are calibrated. For obvious reasons, if I am taking a shot at a distance requiring a hold over point, I assure you, my scope will be on max power. Having said that, a FFP scope cant hurt you. That is, if you dont mind shelling out the extra coin AND settling for the 15x. Having had one 15x and two 22x's, I hands down prefer the 22x. The 1st or 2nd FP is not a deal breaker for me. The power is. IMHO FFP scopes are overrated and one of the last things I concider when looking at new scopes. But that is just me.

By the way. It is a 3.5K 338 Edge.

I prefer MILS slightly over MOA. However, what I really care about is that my dials match my reticle. IE: MIL reticle with MIL turrets or MOA reticle with MOA turrets.

I have had several of them. One 56mm and two 50mms. After having 4 total 56mm scopes and a couple 50's, I will never go back to anything over 50. All in all, I think the NF scopes are great. The only thing that is not premium is the glass. That said, it is sufficient. They are VERY sturdy scopes. I have beat the living crap out of them on sheep and goat hunts year after year with a few other mishaps during other hunts and even backed over another with my pickup truck and have NEVER had a zero shift. Aside from the less than perfect glass, all other components are of extreme quality. All moving parts do so without any slop. The dials are firm, positive and repeatable. They track well to boot. Are there better scopes? (better is a subjective term) I think so, but you will spend over 3000 bucks on a 'better' scope. I realize NF's are not cheap but they are worth it and are a great investment and hold a decent re sell value.

Who would have thought the defending champs would get swept this year? YEEEEEHAAAAA!!!! By over 30 points in game 4 to boot! With 2 ejections. While I hate the Lakers, I can't say I hate Phil Jackson (other than the fact that I have watched him too many times beat the teams I was rooting for). I feel bad to see him retire this way. Time to go fishing Kobe!!!!

Thats not at all how I meant it and others are right, it was never directed to any one including you. I am sorry if I offended you. Maybe I should have said unrealistic expectations. I just see that overall score has become the most important concideration for many hunters these days regardless of what the buck or bull looks like. All elk and deer are anymore is a number to many hunters and I feel that this is a sad reality born of horn porn magazines. Yes I read trophy hunter and the huntin fool. Yes they feature some awesome animals. Do I enjoy looking at awesome animals in those magazines? Yes. Would I enjoy it more if I was able to get one of those awesome animals? Absolutely. More important than that though is that I can get out there are chase bugles, watch bulls wollow and rut. That is where the good memories are. Too many hunters have lost sight of that. Of course that is my opinion. If you want to tell me to go pound sand for sharing my opinion, I can live with that. Honestly, I hope you harvest a true beast of a bull. More importantly, I hope you have a great time and gain great memories to last a lifetime. If my posts bothers you that much, just ask and I will happily delete them.

There is ALOT to be said about this kind of attitude. I remember when a 6 point was a 6 point. It didnt matter if it was 250" or 450". A 6 point was huge. A 7x7 was mythical. Unfortunately, the huntin fool and trophy hunter are like playboy and hustler. They only make you want what is unrealistic most of the time and fill your mind with ideas that it doesnt need. Youre right. enjoy the hunt, shoot a nice bull and be happy. When it is all said and done, that is what is important. Not inches.

After 5 trips to the range I finally got my new Thompson Center muzzleloader to shoot better than 2-3" 100 yard groups. I have come to realize that they are like centerfire rifles. They like a specifec bullet, powder and combo between the 2. Couple that with getting the sabot lined up straight and seated in the same spot every time these freakin things are finiky. Its a good thing I have all summer to practice and work any bugs out. I am going to go on a spot and stalk black bear hunt maybe next month or early June. That should be the real test of how well I can do with these smoke poles. There is no better test and experience than field tests and experiences. If there are any problems in my system, better to figure it out chasing black bears rather than bugles 50 cal (45 cal saboted) Barnes 290 grain Spit-Fire TMZ's ahead of 115 grains (81 weighed grains) of Blackhorn 209 ahead of a CCI209M primer. 3/4" center to center on the nose. Now I am really getting excited!

I have missed a few deer. I cant say any of them were from 'buck fever' but I did miss one due to target panic before I learned how to deal with it. At that point in my life, it would have not mattered if it was a 3D target, a deer, a paper spot target etc.....I could not hit the broadside of a barn even if I was on the inside of the barn. The rest were either string jumpers or a poor judgment on range estimation.

Got my tag yesterday. Finally! I agree with 257wby. "this is going to be a long summer". I got my refund check for antelope quite some time ago. Happy hunting to all.

So it was our (my wife and I) 10th year anniversary yesterday. There is not a card in the world that could express my thoughts so I wrote her a letter in kind of a poem fashion. I told her how I realize how hard she works at work and home taking care of house, husband and kids and how I am typically in my own little world applying for tags, planning hunts, reloading, shooting, scouting, staring at google earth etc.......Of course she thinks I have it all wrong and that I spend lots of time with her and the girls and helping out.....WTH???? Every other woman I know whould kick my a$$ to the curb for all the time and coin I put into shooting and hunting. I mean seriously, since we have been married I have easily spent 100K on hunting trips, hunting equipment, taxidermy bills, airfare, bush planes, fuel, etc...... It has been especially rough the last year or so. As a beyond help elkoholic, I have been whining and sniveling for months and months about not having been able to go on another elk hunt for the last (seemingly) umpteen years. Yet she never complains about it. Now that I have an elk tag burning a hole in my pocket this year it is even worse. I watch elk vidoes every day, scream on the bugle and whimper on the cow calls. Yet she says she is happy for me. WTH?? What ever I did to deserve this kind of treatment is beyond me but I am NOT going to complain about it, I am not going to throw her back. I am just going to happilly accept this gift for what it is. A beautiful life. God bless my woman!

Every week.

Wow! I would be thrilled if I could hit a 5" circle at 300 yards. Or an 8" circle for that matter. I should be able to get to the 200 yard range tomorrow and see how she does at 200 yards. Then MAYBE 300 if she does well at 200. I have wanted the tag you had for a while. I had enough points to draw it in 09 and was torn between a Dec CWT tag and the muzzy deer tag. I ended up cashing in my points on the CWT. It worked out great since I would have been using my cousins gear. He also drew the same CWT tag and would not have been able to share his gear a couple of units away! Thanks for the tips.

If you set your powder measure device for 120 grains, dump powder into it you have 120 volumetric grains. Dump that into a grain scale and you should have around 84 grains. I read somewhere that the multiplier for conversion is 0.7 or weighed units are 70% of volume measurments. By doing this I came up with 120 * .7 = 84 grains of 'weighed' powder. After checking volumetric measurments against weight measurments, I came up with between 82 and 85 grains of weighed measurements with the brass measure set for 120 grains. Which is consistent with the * .7 formula. Unfortunately, a 3 grain spread cant be good for accuracy. That said, if you weighed out 120 grains of BH209 and fired it under a 300 grain slug (I am no expert here so I dont know) I would venture to say that you would have a bomb in your face. When BH states to use up to 120 grains of powder, they are refering to the 'volumetric' grains. So, I wanted to test different charge weights without killing myself. After being unhappy with the accuracy of using a standard powder measure, I deceided to weigh my charges. Knowing that 84 weighed grains (120 volumetric) was maximum, I wanted to start low and work up. I wanted to go with 5 volumetric grain increments to start. So I weighed out 67 grains (95 VG) and went from there. 115 VG or 81 weighed grains was definately a sweet spot. Afterwards, I set my powder measure as closely as I could to 115 since it is made for 10 grain increments starting at 50. Even using this method the accuracy was fair. It was not as nice as the 3/4" group but it was a nice and tidy triangle group I would be happy to hunt with. I found the same thing yesterday with weighing charges of Pyrodex Select FFG. Groups tightend up from 3" to 1.5" between weighing charges and dumping them into the measure. Take this info with a grain of salt. I am FAR from an expert and I have only scratched the surface and have ALOT to learn. Most of what I have learned about muzzleloading so far has been right here on this site. I love this site!!

I will add a +1 on arrow weight for elk. 3 year old bulls are alot more forgiving than 6+ year old bulls when it comes to penetration. We all hope for the 6+ year old bulls. Hence the need for a good weight range. I will add though that while weight is important, IMHO even more important is having an arrow tuned so that it DOES NOT porpise or fishtail. When this happens, even with heavy arrows, you will get very little penetration period. The more severe the problem, the less they will penetrate. They need to fly straight if you want to bury them to the fletching or pass them through. This is a great thread and just in time for the up and coming season.

So guys, I am a complete muzzleloader hunting virgin. While I have a fair bit of elk hunting experience mostly with archery I have none with muzzleloading. So, my question is this. First lets say I realize when an elk is quartering to or facing the hunter, they are a couple of the worst possible archery shots. Now if it were my 338 Edge, a frontal or quartering to shot would be taken without question. So the question is how about a muzzleloader? Do you take frontal or quartering to shots or not. Is there enough horsepower there to break up the shoulder bones or am I lokking for broadside shots or quartering away shots only? Does using a round ball versus a conical make a difference in this context? Thanks for the help guys.

I bought some of PR's Dead Center 240 grain pills yesterday. What do you think about these for elk?

Thanks for all the info. What is typically the minimum velocity required for good and reliable expansion? Or is that a question for the various manufacturers?

CF, thanks for sharing your experiences with them. I am not trying to change your mind. Just offering a flip side of the coin for others. Unfortunately, you are VERY right about guys shooting multiple elk in a season. I talked to a hunter in 7E in 95 that had hit 4 cows on the same water hole. Seriously? I would imagine a guy like that who has that kind of 'ethics' wouldnt bother to sharpen his broadheads be it a montec or a slick trick or a muzzey etc.....Sad but VERY true. It frustrates me just the same. I am competeing for 10% of your permits which makes it MUCH harder to enjoy hunting in the great hunting grounds of AZ. The fact that hunters will wound, kill, loose and shoot another over and over again take away from the few permits that are available as it is. Dont get me wrong, I realize that sometimes a wounded loss happens. Whether or not a hunter keeps hunting after that is up to the hunter. Only he knows how bad he may or may not have wounded it etc.....It is the fact that unprepared slobbish hunters will do it over and over year after year because they have too many weak links. Either mental or mechanical. Guys who take it seriously and have respect for others and the game they hunt, put in the due time and dilligence will be prepared enough and properly to make what ever is in their quiver work for them instead of against them. The problem is not the broadheads (regardless of make/model) it is the nut behind the string/trigger that is typically the weak link. If it is a mechanical failure that has become the weak link, 90+% of the time it is a lack of observation or timely corrections of parts that are wearing or cracking, or in this case, dull broadheads. If the problem is a dull broadhead (any make/model) it is nothing more than a lack of preparation/respect on the part of the hunter. Thanks again CF. No matter how you look at it, there is no perfect broadhead for all applications. Personally, I do share your enthusiasm for actual razor blades. They are tough to beat. The nice thing about them is that they are like a Havalon knife. Easy to replace blades and they are ready to go when you install them. There is something to be said for that.

I have to dissagree with CF about the G5 Montec. I will admit that they dont come as sharp as they should be. IMHO, that is in the end, up to the hunter to ensure his blades are sharp regardless of the broadhead they select. I like them (and have killed elk very quickly with them) granted I had to sharpen them myself. I will agree with CF that one of the most important things about broadheads on elk is they need to be RAZOR shaving sharp. Replace the blades, sharpen the blades, whatever. Just make sure they are shap enough to shave with. The reason I like them is because elk are a conundrum between needing a bone crushing tip yet it take ALOT of energy to penetrate their hide with a punching broadhead. Roughly 30 foot pounds where a cut to the tip head requires less than 5 to penetrate the skin. So which do you use? A cut to the tip and hope you hit between ribs or a punching chisle tip just in case you hit big bone? G5 Montecs (when sharpened properly) offer the best of both worlds and they are easy to sharpen. On the flip side to CF's experience I have hunted with a guide that strongly encouraged ALL of his bowhunters to show up with G5 Montecs and would not take you to the field if you had mechanicals. In addition, he verified that his hunter's broadheads were razor sharp AND when using G5's, he personally sharpend them on an arkansas stone. They were scary sharp and his record for finding wounded elk very rapidly was perfect. They key? SHARPEN the broadhead. That said, I am NOT a fan of mechanicals for elk. Why put in for years and years and hunt long and hard for that trophy bull and then leave that much to chance? With todays modern bows, they are for the most part easy to tune and they tune very well. With a properly tuned bow and an arrow spined right with the proper amount of weight forward and sufficient drag on the rear, there is NO proplem getting a fixed broadhead to fly right in the same group as field points. Even out to 40-50 yards depending on how fast the bow is and how heavy a given arrow is. I find that at 60 I have to lower my pin a hair due to the added drag. With other set ups, I have had to re-adjust 50 and 60 down.

Bill, Yes, I meant ungulate! Or 'hoofed' mammals such as deer, elk and moose.....Thanks for the spelling clarification.

Wait till you kill a big rutty bull... I have had the pleasure eating many a big old rutting bulls (elk and moose). Some good and some not so good. The pattern has been if he was cared for very meticulously, he was great eating. If he was skinned and cut up quickly, not so much goodness. While I will agree that proper and carefull field care is vital regardless of the animals state or season, it is even more critical when dealing with rutting undulents. They piss on themselves, roll around in mud that has been pissed in by themselves and other nasty bulls for days and weeks. When you rush the butchering proccess, often times the nasty hide makes contact with the meat, a very dirty and contaminated knife blade (from the hide) makes constant contact with the meat, etc.....When this happens, and it does NOT take much contamination to make a lot of meat taste pretty bad and strong. When dealing with these mature rutting elk and moose etc.....You have to really pay close attention as to keeping the fur side of the hide off the meat AT ALL times and you have to keep your knife clean after cutting contaminated hide. If (more like when) a dirty knife or hide contacts any meat, the area has to be cut away ASAP. You dont have to cut huge chunks off, just a thin layer. Take it from a guy who gets to share in the harvesting annually of big old rutting undulents, sometimes my own and sometimes a buddies that if you dont contaminate the inside of the rutting animal with the outside of the rutting animal, the table fare will be 100 times more enjoyable. Rutting bulls and summer velvet bulls can both be great. Rutting ones just are not as forgiving as velvet ones.

No kidding! I will be ordering one this week. The good new is they are NOT like my rifles. They are dirt cheap. 350-700 bucks buys a decent smoke pole. I will be using the Mark4 scope on it (3 times the cost of the stick!) You know me, I will be milking every bit of usefull range so long as there is adequete energy retained.