308Nut

104-106 tops. A shooter for sure.

Have them translate 'Harvest' while you are at it! Sorry Bill, I had to.

A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. If that buck/hunt has extra special meaning to you then mount it. If not then save the coin for one that does. Whether the next one scores high or has extra special meaning to you or both. I know for me, I have some critters mounted simply because they were too beautiful not to. They made excellent art. Some got mounted soely for the fact that I had to work extra hard for them or for some other sentimental value. Let us know what you decide.

Being that I am the betting man that I am, I am going to step out on a limb here and say that Lark is going to recommend the 243. Great advice.....

Amen. The long winter fur is the real trophy. Of course, long thick horns does not hurt. I thought very hard about getting a full body mount but I decided that I could do alot of hunting for 3500 bucks so I wen with the shoulder mount instead. I do have the rest of the hide as well. Its too nice to throw away.

Very nice! You deserve a big congrats and to be very proud of this billy. You have taken one of the most prized North American big game animals of which very few hunters will ever enjoy. That is also a very very nice billy. Have you scored him yet? I would be shocked if he did not net over 50" and it looks like he is well over 50". My hats off to you!

10% wow! For a cartridge that holds 100 grains of powder this could be about a 250-300 FPS difference from shot to shot in a 300 RUM and 180 grain bullets. Using H1000 at around 100 grains equals about 30 FPS per grain. RETUMBO about 25 FPS per grain. I could see a tolerence of 1% which would be a 1 grain difference which in all honesty, is quite high. Even for factory loads. Thats funny right there!!!

This is a BAD idea. 99 times out of 100 your POI can be different. Even with equal bullet weights, different powder types/charge weight/burn rate differences etc... can and typically will cause a shift in POI. Sometimes very dramatically. A buddy of mine has made this mistake more than once. He has also missed out on good opportunites because of it. He still has not learned.....

Lark, you are so full of maLARKey. I am just glad I drew 1st blood here!! We would not want Prowlerman to get started off on the wrong foot with visions of graduer about the 270. Nice to have you back. http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/308-winchester-1.php Just who does this 'Michael Eichele' @ longrangehunting.com think he is???......The nerve of that guy to write such an article about the 308. How dare he.

Agreed. The 6.5x284 is a very popular 1K match/BR rifle for 2 main reasons. 1: They are very accurate. 2: They don't recoil as much as magnums. They also happen to have high BC potential which offers forgivness in windy situations. I knew a guy shooting in a 2 day match who was using a 7mm WSM. Using very heavy high BC bullets he smoked the competition on day one. His horizontal separation was much less than any one elses. On day 2 he had his a$$ handed to him because of recoil fatique. This is why smaller is better on the target range. They just dont beat you up as much as larger calibers. We just have to remember that paper targets and game targets is far from an apples to apples comparison. The 308 is my all around favorate cartrige and has been for years and most likely will be for many years. In hunting situations, you have to consider having the stones to do the job. What is the job? The job is to have enough velocity/energy to open the bullet. There is mathematical energy and transfered energy. Or lack therof for that matter. You can take a 180 FMJ at 1800 FPS and have roughly 1300 foot pounds of energy mathematically. However, the FMJ penciling right through an animal does very little for a quick, clean kill. If you use an expanding bullet, you have the same energy mathematically speaking but it opens up, becomes very blunt and transfers much more energy upon the animal while tearing a big ragged hole. IMHO, bullet expansion is more important than 'energy'. All that said, most hunting bullets require at least 1800 FPS for reliable and predictable expansion. Trust me, it is very difficult to find a load for a 308 that offers 1800 FPS at 1000 yards. No matter how you slice it, the 308 will peter out to 1800 FPS between 600-750 yards depending on the bullet used. This distance can be increased with elevation and higher temps but even then about 800 yards is it. If one is he!! bent on using the 308 as a 1K hunting rifle, you have to select bullets that will expand at lower velocities such as the Sierra Game Kings or Hornady AMAX's. The 200 grain SGK can deliver 1500 FPS at 1K with 1000 foot pounds. 1500 FPS is an acceptable velocity for expansion for the 200 SGK. Another bullet to concider is the GS custom HV bullets. They too have 1500 FPS impact requirments and also sport decent BC's. These are great choices for calibers with lower starting velocities. Otherwise, you will need more starting velocity and/or the stones to drive a heavier bullet with a higher BC to a point where you will have 1800 FPS at 1K yards. The 308 is capable long range hunting rifle but it still is less than optimum for a legitimate 1K yard hunting rifle. Just agreeing with you here.

Fair enough elkaholic. One of the things I have learned over the years is that you can out perform the 30-378 with the 308 at a full 1K depending on the bullet choices but never with equal bullet weights run at max potential. For example: The 308 running the 208 AMAX or 210 VLD will hit harder and drift less at 1K than the 150 or 168 out of the 30-378. This is of course running max loads in each. However, the 30-378 will shoot flatter than the 308 equal bullet weights or not. Use equal weights for each rifle and top loads, the 30-378 will eat the 308 every time. Unfortunately, it will eat the barrel just the same. On average, the 308 can deliver anywhere from 500-750 pounds of energy at 1K using 155-180 grain bullets. The 300 Win mag between 850-1050 pounds with the same. The 30-378 between 1200-1600 pounds using 180-210 grain bullets. The 338 Win Mag 1200-1600 using 225-300 grain bullets and the 338 Lapua or 338 Edge 1500-2100 pounds using 225-300 grain bullets. At least at sea level. There are exceptions to those listed above but that is a general guide. In general, the 308 is just not that well suited for a 1K yard hunting rifle. Yes it can be done but there are more forgiving choices out there.

What the.....?????

If you think the 30-06 seems like it is falling out of the sky.......The 308 is nearly the same and in most cases a bit worse. Who really cares? With the availability of good laser range finders trajectory is of very little if any concern at all. The 308 is a GREAT 1000 yard rifle. That said, it is NOT a great 1000 yard hunting rifle unless you are talking small game. If you want good long barrel life, an unbelievable plethora of brass types, bullet selection, powder selection etc....cheap operation and low recoil, then the 308 is a great round. This is of course with 1000 yard paper target for fun and practice and a legitimate 600 yard deer round in mind. The 270 is OK but you dont have quite the bullet selection, will require a long action and the barrel wont last as long. Recoil will be similar depending on powder and bullet choices. If you want to 'dive' into long range hunting it will require lots of practice and experimenting. The 308 is very user friendly for begginers. If you want a legitimate 1000 yard big game rifle, you are barking up the wrong tree with either the 308 or 270. I say legitimate because you can kill an elk with either at 1K but the margin for error is MUCH greater than with a big 300 or 338. You need retained velocity for bullet expansion and retained energy for the obvious. There are very few bullet/velocity combo's with the 308 or 270 that will ensure a well constructed bullet will open up on game at 1K. Just my $.02

You have to have 'killed' to have harvested but you dont have to have harvested to have 'killed' A poacher could have made a kill for the sport of it and leave the animal lay to rot. This is one of the reasons I use the term 'harvest' much of the time. And yes, it involves a 'kill' of which I am not ashamed of. It conjours up in the mind of a broader picture than just a 'kill'. I cant say I do it to be politically correct either. It is just a descriptive term. The very nature of any language is constantly changing.

Some dictionary definitions of harvest include gathering fish, deer etc....It is not just a term used for crops. I use the word, euphamism, slang or whatever you wish to call it.....'harvest' all the time. When we go to the grocery store to get our (tags as you in Arizona call them) what we call 'harvest tickets' I assume to have filled that (tag) meens to have 'harvested' our game. Game here is a resource to be 'harvested' and eaten. To harvest a moose or a caribou we have to have killed them. In the end, we kill it, notch our 'harvest ticket', skin it, bone it, bag it, transport it, proccess it, wrap it, freeze it, thaw it, cook it and eat it. Yummy! Call it what you want. Harvest is just a descriptive word that brings to mind not just the kill, but the whole surrounding activities accossiated with the 'kill'. To hear someone say "I iklled a deer" brings to my mind a dead deer with a bloody hole in it and little else. I hear someone say "I harvested a deer" it brings to my mind the complete proccess. I guess I have a broad minded view. This is a personal choice. To each his own. I choose to use the words kill, harvest, took, collected etc....Dont fault me. I wont fault you. I voted for the 3rd option just so you know.

Thats awesome!! I honestly get tired of the mentality that one has to shoot the largest buck possible. Maybe I hate it so much because I have got caught up in that and it kills me. I am riddled with guilt. I remember when a buck was a buck was a buck.... Then again, I know that some tags are hard to draw and one has to make the most of it. That said, with a tag you can draw on a regular basis, there is nothing wrong with that freezer trophy right there! It's the 'thrill of the steak'! Congrats on an awesome freezer trophy.

Its one of those things that we have come to rely on in the past few years and I rely on them heavily for a lot of reasons and for various circumstances. If I broke, lost or forgot or heaven forbid, had to sell mine to make ends meet, I would not let that stop me from going hunting. I know that having one greatly increases my odds of success and greatly decreases the odds of a wounded loss. That said, I would try and have one at all costs but I would also be happy just to have a tag and be hunting. A good hunter will do the best he can with what he has. Yes there maybe times that a LRF will be the difference between pot roast and tag soup but there are no guarrantees even with an LRF. If I were you, I would not loose any sleep over it. Get out there, have fun and put your skills to the test. Keep us posted in regards your hunt. Happy hunting!!

To make a long story very short, I have had to wait a very long time to get this December 09 buck back from Clay. Please note that It was not Clay holding the proccess up. His turn around time is very reasonable. In any event, I am more than happy with this mount. Clay did a stellar job. This is a buck I have waited much of my life for. This is a awesome way to close that chapter.

All the info here has been good. Volume, neck tension, etc...all will translate into differences. How much? It depends on alot of circumstances. Some rifle/brass/load combinations will show very little difference while others can be huge. The best policy? IMHO, use only 1 lot# from a given manufacturer. For the 308, I like Lapua and Remington in that order. Lapua brass may at times be over-rated and over-priced but it is still great brass. I have Lapua brass from 10 years ago (for references) and Lapua brass from less than a year ago. Between those and every other lot# of brass I have had, they are all dimensionally with volumetric capacities that are identical. Their consistency is second to none. That said I have had a few lot#s over the last couple of years of the Remington with the same results. My only gripe is that I dont get as many firings and I have to de-burr the flash holes on the Remingtons. Hope that helps.

As many of you know, I drew a 22S early muzzleloader elk tag this year. Not the best tag in the state but with some hard work, dedication and some help from my cousin Rex (pwrguy) I knew a seemingly low quality hunt could become a quality hunt and I was not dissapointed. After a week of scouting and glassing, I decided I wanted to try my hand at a bull Rex named Brutus. As of Saturday I had not yet seen this bull but from Rex's description, I knew I needed to hunt him. He was a very long, wide and stellar bull, nearly perfectly symetrical and a perfect stair step in line 7x7. A true trophy in ANY unit during any season with any weapon. After Friday and Saturday, we had not seen hide nor hair of him. On Sunday I glassed the back half of one antler at nearly a mile. I knew instantly that I wanted to harvest this bull. When he stepped out into the open, it tuned out that it was Brutus and he was a brute. I knew instantly that this was the bull I came to Arizona for. You read about guys analyizing animals and sizing them up.....but with Brutus one quick glance and you knew he was a shooter bull. One blown stalk later and I would not see him again till the next evening where I watched him fight another bull we called Lefty. He was another great bull. Somewhat un-symetrical but a good bull none the less. Both bulls had absolutely gigantic bodies. These bulls were clearly very mature critters. Brutus took Lefty's cows. the next morning we were on him again. I kept trying to get into position for a shot to no avail. After backing out to to poor wind conditions, I saw him for the last time later that evening. The next couple of days we spent glassing and I sat on a couple of wallows that I found in the area as well as chased bugles. Wednesday night I decided to NOT hike off the mountain and just sleep on top with my coat. First thing in morning on the close of the hunt I heard Lefty bugling. Rex had him spotted but lost him. I followed his bugles and wound up between 10 and 20 yards from him but had no shot due to the THICK manzanita. After a cow busted me he blitzed up to the top of the ridge. He went over the top towards a wollow I had sat the day before. I raced up and around and cut him off by positioning myself above the wollow. I waited and waited. Lefty never showed up. A sat for a few hours and decided to get up and chase some bugles I had been hearing all day long. I loaded up my pack and went to stand up when I looked up I saw a bull next to the wollow. I looked through the binos and saw he was a decent 6x7. I grabbed the old 50 cal smoke stick and took aim, and fired. To my suprise he dropped where he stood. The time was 1:10 on the last day. Who knows, maybe Lefty or Brutus would have came in later but with time running out and planes to catch, this one would have to do.

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27582&pid=271234&st=0entry271234

'Moto Zozo' (Zoey) sitting on Dad's LT-R450 MX quad. Is she not the cutest little MX girl ever?

Nice! See any elk?

To all, After a three year dry spell on rams, I decided to harvest a ram I have been watching grow up the last couple of years. I was also watching another ram with him the same age. The ram I wanted was broomed on one side with several chunks missing on the top of his horns and was 15/16 curl on the other side. 8 growth rings automatically made him legal and the other was a symmetrical full curl. Both rams appeared to be 8 years old. My friend and hunting buddy Charlie has taken several rams in the past but nothing ever solid (making a complete full curl). Since Charlie has watched me harvest several nice rams and helped me pack them out a few times, I offered him either of the 2 rams that he wanted. Granted, I had hoped he didn’t want 'Buster' and hoped that he wanted 'Curly'. From the descriptions I gave him, he indicated that he might like Buster. That's OK I thought. I just wanted him to get a good ram this year. I just love busted chipped up rams. I love their character. There is just something about the old warlord look. Anyway after a LONG and wet hike into the high country after working a full day on the 9th, we got to bed at 1:00am. We got up at 3:45am, ate, packed and hiked. And hiked and hiked.....It was snowing and blowing much of the time. The fog pretty much made finding the rams very tough. The fog would break here and there just enough for us to find them. When we got to the top of the peak and the fog cleared again, we found them bedded at 688 yards. We couldn’t move on them as we were wide open. I was not comfortable with the wind so we did not take a shot. For 6 hours we waited on this peak in the snow, fog and wind. We were both exhausted, hungry and had run out of water. To make a long story short, when the fog broke for good, they were gone. We found them at the bottom of the drainage feeding. (This is for those who believe I do not know how to 'hunt') We stalked to within 150 yards. After handing the rifle to Charlie, I told him to take which ever ram he liked the best. He said with out a doubt, he wanted Curly. YEEEEESSSS I thought. I get to harvest Buster. He took the shot and drilled Curly. He handed the rifle back to me and I nailed Buster who was now further up the hill side. They rolled down the hill into the creek bottom but they were 200 yards apart. We did not have time to move them together for pictures since we shot them at 9:30 at night. We took pictures, gutted them, opened them up and did a partial skinning job just so they could cool down. We would have to return the next morning to finish the cutting and pack them to camp. It was over 2 mountain miles back to camp, in the dark of course. We got back to camp at midnight, ate and went to bed. That morning, we hiked back to the rams, cleaned them up, and packed them back to camp. The next day we packed them back to the wheeler. Charlie and I have had doubles on moose, caribou, deer and bears but never sheep. He always wanted us to get a double on sheep. It could not have worked out any better. We got our double and the rams WE wanted. This was Charlie's 4th dall ram and while not his largest, it is his nicest ram. This is my 7th dall and while not my nicest or biggest definitely one of my most appreciated. Both rams are aged at 8 years old. Enjoy. Standing on the edge of the universe in the snow: Sleeping in the rain next to the edge: Before: After: 113 pounds of meat, horn, cape and camp. Charlies pack and my pack were within 2 pounds of eachothers.

The 6.5x284 and the 6.5-06 have the same bolt face. As far as potential 'better' cartriges...Better can be subjective. My opinion is that the straight 284 can be better than the 6.5x284. The 162-168 7mm grain bullets have better BC's than the 140-142 grain 6.5mm bullets. The recoil is not that much more. Velocity is very close to the same with the added bore diameter of the .284. Barrel life is better to boot. Hope that helps.