308Nut

I have three 30 cals. A 10, 11 and a 12 twist. All of them were nothing more than an experiment. To see which one was 'best'. The heaviest I have ever got around to shooting in my 10x is 180 grains. I cant imagine it would handle the 200 or 210 any different than the 180s. It shoots the 150s through 180s beatifully despite being optimum for 220 grains. At least on paper. The 11 and 12x have digested 150-210 just fine even though 12x is not optimum or traditional for 210's. I cannot tell the difference just by shooting them. If I did not know the twist of each one there is no way I would be able to tell just from shooting them using bullets between 150-210 grains. I use to like slower twists simply due to less radial torque. At least mathematically on paper. Again, I cannot tell the difference by shooting them. Berger's reasoning is that the slower the twist, imperfect bullet jackets are not affected as much as it relates to group size. Then again, all the major bullet producers these days generate pretty concentric jackets. All my barrels have shot all their respective weights listed above with a good degree of accuacy and some bullets with an exceptional degree of accuracy. The funny thing is, 12-13x in a 308 should be optimum for a 168 grain. My 11x shoots the 168 the best out of all weights even though the 11x is suppose to be the best with 200-210. At least on paper. The paper nailed to the target is the only paper I am concerned with anymore. My next 30 cal barrel will be a 10x whether it get chambered in a 308 or 30-378. A 10x will digest any pill I send down it's gullet. Be it light, heavy, mono metal or jacketed. Between my experience and those of many match shooters and more hunters you or I will ever know about, 10x barrels in 30 cal have accomplished just about everything. We can argue all we want about the ins and the outs of barrel twist and what makes this twist 'proper' for this bullet and so on. The point here is, is that the 30 caliber is not as 'sensitive' as you think it is. Are there optimum twists for a given 30 cal bullet? Absolutely. Just like there is for a 270 or any other caliber. The point is a 10x 30 cal works excellent with 150s through 240s even though it is mathematically optimum with a 220 grain bullet that has a 10.7 specific gravity. Is a 10x 30 cal Optimum for all bullets? No. Is a 30 cal magically more twist sensitive compared to other calibers? No. And that is the point. If your smith recomended a given twist for a given bullet weight, it is because he is going with what is mathematically optimum for that bullet. That does not mean it will only work with one bullet. That is the WONDERFULL thing about custom barrels. You can order one with a twist that is optimum for the bullets you desire to shoot. With factory rifles, it does not work that way. The factory has no idea what you are going to run in it. That is why most factory 30 cal rifles come with 10x barrels. It will stabilize any factory ammo and 99% of handloads from 240 grains and lighter. You can stabilize a 125 with a 10x but you cant stabilize a 240 with a 12x. M

Who said anything about "need"? LOL!!! Glad you know what you are doin there Lark!

Well Lark, you sure did bring out one of the STRONG suites of the 30 cal. Bullet weights between 110-240 grians. 130 grains of difference to choose from. Thats about the heaviest bullet for a 270 eh? Any luck with such a variety in the 270? Sure, a 10 twist might be a bit out of kilter with a 110 grain 30 cal. That said, 150-210 is the typical weight range for most 30 cal shooters. A 10x barrel will stabilize adequetly up to the 240 SMK and I know plenty of shooters using a 10x for 150's with superb accuracy. The 13x is the standard for the Palma Match rifles using the 155's even though there are several Palma shooters that use a 10x. 10x or 13x, they still shoot top scores all the way to 1K. To me, a 10x for 150-240 grain pills is a very large window and anything BUT sensitive. Sure, if you wany to launch 110's, a slower twist would work better but for the bullets weight range that matters in a 30 cal (150-210+), a 10x is a versitile as they come. One twist for 90 grains worth of difference (150-240). Seems pretty insensitive to me. At least in my opinion. Most factory 30 cal hunting rifles from 30-06 to 30-378's come with a 10x. I dont know of any hunters that complain about it even though some use 150's and other 200+ for hunting. M

Lark, I really do expect more out of you than this..........You know better than that. One finicky 30 cal gun you have wrapped your hands around does not constistue twist sensitivity for all 30 cals.

Bullet weight for bullet weight and equal form, you are 100% correct. The 7mm will beat the 30's hands down. For the same reason the 338 offers heavier and higher BC bullets over the 30 cals, the 30's have higher weight and BC bullets available over the 7mm. Look at the difference between the Berger 7mm 180 grain versus the 30 cal 230 grain. .674 versus .743. More energy at the muzzle, more energy down range and less windage. The downside is of course, is recoil. 7mm can be a better caliber in that regard but if one wanted to fill the gap between the 7mm's and the big 338's, a big 300 is a good place to be. The 30 cal will alway get my vote over the 7mm. I do understand the BC to bullet weight ratio is not as optimum for the 30's as it is the 7's, but the fact remains, a larger bore will have heavier bullets with higher BC's available than the next caliber down. You also have to factor in that with equal barrel lengths, equal case volumes and equal bullet weights, where one bore is larger than the other (such as the 300RUM and 7mmRUM) the one with the larger bore will have higher velocity potential. This allows for slightly heavier bullets to be driven at the same speeds at the next caliber down. For example, Hodgdon lists the 7mmRUM running 175 grain bullets at 3077 FPS and the 300 RUM running 200's at 3068 FPS. The same applies for the 338 Edge versus the 300 RUM. Same case. All else being equal, the 338 will run equal weights faster or heavier weights equal to etc.... Everything is a trade off. The 7mm will have less recoil but less barrel life and less energy. The 300 will have better barrel life and more energy yet more recoil. Windage will be close. Even with all that said, I have a new .264 caliber barrel arriving next week. Who would have figured that? M

+2

If you can handle the recoil, neither. The best way to improve either of those is to stick a 338 bullet in the case. More energy, more bbl life and LESS windage. If I had to choose between the 7 and the 300. Then the 300 is an easy answer. More energy than the 7, more life than the 7 and less windage. Dont let anybody tell you any different. The downside is of course,,,,,,more recoil. Equal bullets weight for bullet weight, the 7 will win out (assuming the use of similarly designed bullets). That said, the larger caliber will always have heavier bullets with higher BC's available then the next caliber. M

The short of it is that yes, bullets have an optimum velocity zone for hunting purposes. You dont want them to explode when you hit a shoulder and you dont want them to pencil through soft tissue. A: You need sufficient material to reach the vitals. B: You need expansion for cleaner kills. Yes, a bullet that pencils through game even in the heart/lung area will kill it. Unfortunately, it often takes MUCH longer with little to no blood trail. As quick as coues deer dissapear this is a problem. Dont confuse complete pass throughs with an expanded bullet as energy wasted compared to a FMJ pass through. A pass through with an FMJ or 'hunting' bullet that did not expand is energy wasted. The reason well constructed bullets are notorious for passing through is because of the controlled expansion itself. If only the nose expands what is left? Most of the bearing surface and the base are left. Most of the bullets weight (which allows momentum to continue) is pushing the 'mushroom' through. A bullet that completely flattens out is much less likely to pass through becuase the weight behind the mushroom is just not there. Any bullet that expands transfers energy to the game regardless of whether or not it passes through. Idealy, you would like as much energy transfer as possible along with an exit for more blood/air purging and better blood trail if needed, however, there is not neccesarily anything wrong with a bullet that did not exit so long as it did sufficient damage and shock wile it was moving. Why expansion? 1: It expends energy (transfers) to the animal creating shock. 2: It creates a bigger hole. The value of that is it tears more tissue, more blood vessles etc...It allows them to bleed out quicker and keep the wound from closing so air cannot remain in the lungs. The less air the better. An FMJ through the lungs allows the hole to seal up and very little air purges. All that said, there is not any one bullet that will work for all calibers at all ranges. The 308 win can get away with using a more frangible bullet like a ballistic tip or AMAX at shorter ranges where a 300 RUM needs a more stout bullet. A 178 AMAX at 3300 FPS may not reach the vitals if it impacts a shoulder bone on an elk at 50 yards. This is where you would want a Barnes or Nosler ACCUBOND etc....On the flip side, you wouldnt want to shoot the 180 ACCUBOND at an elk at 308 velocities at 800 yards either. Why? Because it wont expand. Where you could get away with a 200 grain Sierra Game King with a 1500 FPS minimum (the key here is higher BC for more velocity retention and a lower velocity requiment), you could not get away with the ACCUBOND with its 1800 FPS minimum and lower BC (BC for retained velocity or lack of). This is also where BC comes into play. The higher the BC, the more retained velocity at any range. The higher the retained velocity, the further you can push the limits (so long as you are using the right bullet). With a slower caliber such as the 308, high BC bullets that expand at low velocities are critical if one is going to use it as a long range hunting rifle. With a 300 RUM, high BC's are nice but not as critical as with the 308 AND you need a bullet that will hold up on close quarter shots. Most LR hunters select a bullet that will expand at their desired range for their caliber AND target. For instance, I know sheep hunters that use the 208 AMAX in their 300 RUMs. Even though that bullet is frangible at high velocity, with the frail nature of sheep, a point blank shot is acceptable. There is enough material and light enough bone structure that it will get the job done no matter what the angle. There is also sufficient expansion to 1400 yards. It is truley a long range sheep load. On the flip side, the same load would not be as good for elk or moose. The hunter needs to match the bullet to the game. Here he might switch to the 200 ACCUBOND. He might loose a bit of range due to the velocity requirments and lower BC, but he should know what the limiting range is and stick to it even if it is a closer range than his abilities afford him. The 208 AMAX might work very well on elk at 1400 yards but may be disaterous at 50 yards. Some hunter I know have two loads. One dialed in for LR (a more frail bullet) and another for closer encounters (a more solid bullet). Bottom line: Select the right bullet for the job. The things to concider are: Size and structure of the game, bullet velocity at point blank and at long range, bullet velocity for expansion requirments. Keep it to those three factors and the rest will fall into place.

Coach I hate to tell you the Springfield you talk about is the O3-A3 and M1 Garand, both are in the 30/06 caliber. My dad has both, he shoots a 130grn sierra soft point at about 3150fps.... He has killed coues, elk and all game in between. That round was used by our military in two world wars, Korea, and by our special forces still today. That round has a large range of bullit weights. The M1A (308) has done more than its fair share of damage. As has the M40, M40A1, M40A3, M40A5 and the M24. All of which are (you guessed it) chambered in 308 Win. The 308 has basically replaced the 30-06 on the battle field.

You have the right idea. Comfort and confidence along with rifle fit, feel, and adequete practice is far more important than your caliber selection. With the above in mind, you shouldn't be 'missing anything'. The confidence will come when you apply these principals. M

308's are WAY under-rated. Only thing the 270 can do that the 308 can't has been mentioned already. Poke a smaller hole with less energy and shoot a little flatter. 30-06's are nice. I still prefer the 308. Shorter action (more rigid, shorter bolt throw, shorter lighter rifle etc...) less recoil, a multitude of reloading components, cheap to operate, SCARY accurate (by nature) efficient, barrels that last and last and last (if you dont abuse them). Dont worry about 'killing power' either. Shot placement and bullet selection (same appliles to ALL calibers) and there is not a critter on this continent it can't handle. The 30-06 will always have more velocity potential than the 308. That said, not much and the fact is, with modern powders, 308s today are shooting faster than 30-06s were 20 years ago. 10 years ago for that matter. You will never regret owning a 308.

Thats sick. It takes a real piece of work to dream up some crap like that....

Do you want more horse power or less recoil? Between these two, that is what it really boils down to. Equal bullet weights, the 7mm has better ballistics but the 300 has bigger, heavier higher BC bullets available. With the right loads, the 300 will drift less and hit harder. That said, the 7mm is a great balance between recoil, energy, and drift. For up to elk, either are great. Pick the one that appeals to you the most. M

Oh my!

Nice job! Some of the best hunts are 'bivy' hunts. Even if the quality of game isnt any better (which often times it can be) the experience is tops. You gotta love that Big Agnes tent! I love their stuff. I use the same tent and I have their full length mummy shape insulated sleeping pad. It is the cream of the crop IMO. Congrats again! M

I have quite a bit of Sitka gear. Some of it I love and some I could take or leave. I love their Acsent pants and would not trade them for anything. I have been brutal on them and they have held up great. They have no holes or tears. I wore them for my entire 22S muzzy elk hunt without a problem (1 week of scouting and 1 week of hunting and another day packing out). There were areas where I was into catclaw. One spot quite a bit. They have survived all of my Alaska scouting and hunts this year through the thick nasty brush (thorny crap to boot), rocks and some of the thickest parts of 22S. They are cut pefectly and beyond comfortable. When hiking and climbing, you dont even know they are there. They dont restrict you at all. The pockets are layed out perfectly for LRF, bullets, bottle of water etc... and whatever else you need during a stalk while the pack stays on the hill and the buttons on the leg pockets are silent. The fabric is dead quiet as well. They dry very quickly and shed water very well. I realize this is a minor concern where you are at. I never overheat in them nor do I ever feel cold. What can I say other than that I think they are the perfect hunting pants. It has taken me along time to find the perfect pair of pants and Sitka NAILED it with them. As far as their upper base layers, well I like them too but I am not sure I like them enough to justify the price. The Ascent pants are worth every penny. At least to me. I love their beannies and gloves as well. I dont have any of their jackets or coats so I cannot vouch for those. Price aside, they do have very high quality gear. You cant go wrong with them, it just boils down to if you think the quality is worth the price. After all that, I will say that I have other gear as well such as APX gear, UA, Kings ect.....Much of their stuff is of good quality as well. Hope that helps! M

Man you guys living in 'snow' country should move up here to Anchorage,,,It is raining here today! Rain in December of all times... M

How "funny" do the first three shots act? I mean how far off are you talking..in general. Less than 1/2 inch difference at 200 yds? Or are you talking way off to right or left? I haven't noticed any difference in my gun with it cleaned or uncleaned. It depends on a given rifle and what the shooter's accuracy standards are and their skill level. I have seen some rifle/load combos deliver groups under 1" at 100 yards including the foul shot and others 3" with the foul shot where the rest were in the middle of the target at tight. I know some hunters that concider all bullets within a pie plate at 100 yards acceptable. Others want a nickel size group dead center and other want something in between. For those are happy with a 'happy medium' and those that are happy with groups scattered throught out a pie plate, a foul shot should mean little if anything. Those that would like to keep their bullets in a dime or nickel size group dead center may want to concider a foul shot. Most rifle/load combos only show the 1st shot to be 'funny' however some need two or 3 to group well. Again, few hard and fast rules here. Some are worse than others. Having a spotless barrel may or may not hurt you during the moment of truth. A fouled barrel will never hurt you. If in doubt, foul it out.

Most rifles will shoot 'funny' for the first 1-3 shots after cleaning. Bullets react differently when subjected to different variables. The variable here is bare steel against the bullet versus powder fouling against the bullet. In some extreme cases, where a load was developed after a certain amount of fouling has occured, it may take 10 or 12 shots after a bare steel cleaning for things to settle back into place. There are few hard and fast rules here but in general, a bullet will shoot differently against bare steel versus a fouled barrel. Therfore as a general rule, many hunters carry a 'clean' rifle with 1-3 foul shots down the barrel. Clean is relative. To me, a clean rifle is one that is clean enough to maintain it's accuracy. But I never hunt with a 'clean' barrel in the sense that it is down to the bare steel.

Just to clarify, the RUM has no belt. Maybe thats what you meant?

Is that 'Big Foot' on the left side of the 3rd picture down?

Well for the first time ever, I got my mount back in less than 9 months. 3 out of 5 mounts took at or over 1 year to get back. 1 was 9 months and this one was 3 months. I dont think I will take any more sheep to a 3 month taxidermist. It is less than perfect but I can live with it. My 2011 ram My 4 best rams

Most of my hunting adventures limit how much space I have and weight I can carry. I carry 10 total hutning rounds with me. Even if I am sharing my rifle with a buddy. If I or we need more than that then maybe I or we need something else. Like more shooting practice or self control. If I hit my scopes/mounting systems hard enough to require a re-zero, I have bigger problems than not enough ammo.

Ron, Michael Eichele on longrangehunting.com just sent you a friend request.

Ron, LOL!! That is freakin hilarious!!!!!!! Dont you know??? It is impossible to wear out a 308. You have'nt figured this out yet have you??!! BTW, I am sending my current 308 barrel to my smith to be set back 1-1/2" and have 1/2" cut off the muzzle. I guess you could say that I have worn out another 308.