308Nut

Is refering to a chart, clicking turrets, finding your target and squeezing off a shot in 15 seconds not a speed/rushing situation? Is that ethical? IMHO, that is rushing to dial. Perhaps that shot shouldnt be taken. If all I had was 15 seconds, I assure you I would not be refering to my chart and dialing and finding my target and making a shot. IMHO, that is a very rushed shot. If all you had was 15 seconds, your odds of making a clean kill are much higher being able to use a holdover than refering to a chart and dialing. How many of us can remember how many MOA it takes for a 450 yards shot, or a 550 yard shot or a 600 yard shot? Most will have to refer to a chart. It is much easier to remember that 400 yards equals one hold over, 500 yards equals two holdovers, 600 yards equals 3 holdovers etc...Anything at 450 and 550 is as simple as splitting the difference between 400/500 and 500/600. Most rifle/load combos can be very easy to optimize with various reticles in this way by setting a zero at 200, 250 or 300 yards. You just need to range and hold. I admit that this works only to a point since after 600 yards you really need to account for changes in temps and pressure and that while holdovers can easily be made to work well with 3,4,5 and 600 yards (sometimes 650) it is very difficult to make all that work with 700 yards too. Moose, and dall sheep, like mule deer and other game animals often stop for one last look (often times long enough for an 'ethical' holdover shot) before diving into the brush or over the canyon's edge. When they are on the move, you should be getting prone and getting on target. When they stop you give them a quick range, you hold over and fire. Is that 'ethical'? It depends on the situation. Often times, having a reticle that you can dope with instead of dial is more ethical since you are not 'rushing' to dial. Then there are coues bucks. How often do they give you just a few minutes of visiblity? Now you see them, now you don't. While they are walking through that small opening you can range them and the edge of the brush they are headed to and then be getting in position instead of dialing. If they stop before they get into the brush on the other side, a hold over reticle is invaluable. You need to be on target and on the trigger ASAP. If they don't stop, then you had no shot either way. At least with turrets and reticle references, you have options. The more options you have, the more the odds will be in your favor.

Any one thing is not going to make a factory rifle a gem. Take the advice of the others. Ammo taylored to that rifle, trigger, bedded stock and free floated barrel. It helps to bed the stock and float the barrel BEFORE you develop a load.

If you have ever wanted a light weight long-range cannon, this is your opportunity. The specs are: Remington 700LA right handed Stainless fully squared and trued Lightweight firing pin assembly Badger bolt knob Sako style extractor Seekins 20 MOA base (bedded to the action/removable) Heavy recoil lug (Pinned to the action) Jewell trigger Wyatt extended box magazine McMillan HTG stock (forest green) 2 studs on the fore-end Pachmyer decelerator recoil pad Textured grip and fore-end ABS barrel 28" + Brake. Rock Creek stainless liner 10 twist Similar to the M24 contour 338 Edge (no turn neck) 600 rounds (+/-) Titanium brake (removable) Bore looks perfect through the Hawkeye With the ABS barrel and Seekins base (as shown) she weighs just under 8.5#. Lilja stainless steel barrel 27-3/16" + brake (not removable) 12 twist Similar to the M24 contour and the same as the ABS barrel 300 RUM (SAAMI chamber) 1125 rounds (+/-) Bore scope shows the typical heat checking of a 300 RUM with 1100+ rounds Barrel was set back 1/16" recently to clean up the throat a bit and to change from a tight neck to a SAAMI spec neck There are ALOT of things to LOVE about this rifle (with the ABS 338) Just a few of the many things you will love: 1: It is perfectly balanced. Off hand shooting is awesome with this rifle. She will dang near hold herself up. 2: It is comfortable to carry. 3: The action is smooth as silk and feed, extracts and functions FLAWLESSLY! 4: The carry weight to performance ratio coupled with perfect balance just make it a pure joy to own and hunt with. 5: With the snug head space, brass cases last a very long time. Even FL sizing them. I have never had to set the shoulder back. Now for the bad news. A few things you may not like: 1: She does kick a bit harder than a heavier Edge (there is room for improvment with other brakes). 2: She is not quite a true 1/2 or sub 1/2 MOA rifle (except for Scenars) as explained below. 3: Due to her light for caliber stature, your shooting form needs to be good all the time (which should be anyways). The 338 barrel will shoot the 225 ACCUBONDs, 250 SMK, 300 SMK and Berger 300 Hybrids well. The Bergers and 300 SMKs shoot the same group size and POI at 300 yards. H1000 is hands down the go to powder for this rifle. 89-90 has been the magic #. 90 has been my MAX load. She has handled more but I keep it safe. She prefers the 215 GMM primers over the 250CCI. I wont lie, it is a finicky rifle and it is not a true 1/2 MOA rig. I assume this is due to her ridiculously light weight. That said, It has shot many sub 1/2 MOA groups and some that were stupid small but it is not a solid 1/2 MOA gun using SMKs and Hybrids. Running 300 grain SMKs and Hybrids, it is a solid .65-.7 MOA gun. Given the size of the targets I have chased with her, I have always been able to live with that. Everything has a trade off. It does shoot the 300 grain Scenars much better but they suck for hunting so I dont use them. She does kick more than a heavier Edge but find that it is decent all things considered. I dont cringe upon firing as long as I dont shoot it back to back days. Velocity is 2727 FPS with the 300 Hybrids. I have never fired the 225's to their potential. 2950 is all I have ran these. New shooters or shooters with poor shooting form may find this to be a frustrating rifle. The better your form, the better she shoots. She is not as forgiving as a heavy 308 or similar. A more experienced shooter will enjoy and appreciate this rifle. Aside from 2 hunting situations, rounds have not been fired less than one minute apart and most have been 2 or more minutes. It sounds stupid but the bore scoping sessions agree that it has been a smart choice. The 300 RUM still holds a good degree of accuracy. It has been a legitimate 1/4 MOA barrel in the past and will still print 1/4 MOA on occasions but holds 1/2 MOA most of the time. The go to bullets are hands down the 178 AMAX, 180 ACCUBONDS (she LOVES these two) and the 200 grain ACCUBOND. The 200's shoot good but not great. They have always produced a good 1/2-5/8 MOA accuracy but like most 300 RUMs, the peak accuracy is with the 180s. The best powder for this barrel (all things considered) is H50BMG but I have had great luck with RL25 as well. Never tried H1000 and used Retumbo once or twice. RL25 and H50BMG have been the two best. H50 yields less velocity but has been the most stable and consistent choice. The 215 GMM are the only primers I have used in this barrel. I never had a need to try another. I use this barrel to practice so I can extend the life of the 338 ABS barrel. Each barrel is head spaced properly. The 338 is snugly fitted against the shoulder of new brass. With the pinned lug, these barrels switch quickly and easily. It only takes the scope 2 clicks vertical and 6 clicks horizontal (0.1 MIL per click) between the barrels. There is no need to remove the stock or scope. I am selling this to help fund other projects. I am more comfortable with heavier rifles to boot. I thought about getting a heavier stock such as an A5 or similar but don't want the added bulk (at least for my 'pack' rifle). I am asking $3500.00 USD + 1/2 shipping anywhere in the USA. I am open to some trades or partial trades. I will know if I am interested when you make an offer. Off the top of my head I may be interested in a Mark 4 fixed 16x scope IF in great condition. Right handed 700LA SS (standard bolt face) or custom action. Possibly another complete rifle. The Seekins base stays with the rifle as it is bedded to this action. It is still removable. I am not willing to part out either barrel either. They are both fitted to this action as well (IE: head spaced, threaded etc...) Trust me guys, this rifle would cost you an arm and a leg to build from the ground up and that is without the 300 RUM barrel. Bi-pod and scope not included.

Most likely. Probably a custom action of sorts. Maybe another Edge or Lapua. Not sure. In any event, it will be a heavier gun. Maybe not super heavy but mid weight. Maybe 13# scoped out. Sendero contour or so. I may even do a mid-weight shorter version like a 338 WSM wildcat for stalking moose/elk. I will just use the 6.5 or 308 for a pack rifle till I figure it out.

I always prefer turrets AND hold over reticles. If given the chance, I will dial. The purpose in also having a MIL or MOA reticle is: 1: If your rangfinder takes a crap, these can be used as a rangefinder with a simple formula and knowing the average target size. With a bit of practice, I have been able to consistently attain +/- 25 yards out to 750 yards on the game I hunt. 2: In hunting, you sometimes DO NOT have the time to dial. Hold over points are pretty easy to memorize out to 600 yards. Need be, you can range your target then point and shoot. Hope that helps. M

So I was able to fly down to Phoenix for a work conference on the 31st and decided to come a few days early and soak up some sun and launch a few bullets with my cousin Rex (AKA pwrguy). The wind was not bad. Roughly 4-7 MPH varying between 4:30 and 7:30. Running 178 AMAX's at 630, 868 and 1005 yards. After running the numbers in the calculator I set up at 630 yards and drilled the paper with perfect windage and a tad low. I didnt waste much time there and just went to 1K (out of my comfort zone a bit) and set up. The first shot was a tad low and a tad right. The next few rounds found perfect elevation where one was within the grid target, one was touching and the other was a tad left off of the paper. Then I drove to a random spot to set up for a whatever range shot. This was 868 yards. I screwed up on the wind on the 1st shot and put the 1st round off of the paper but 2 and 3 where in the kill zone and a tad high. Still well within the kill zone. After that shot I went back to 1005 yards and paying a bit closer attention to the wind put 2 bullets just off the paper to the left. I was able to spot my own shots and see that these went right through where the crosshairs were, I centered my reticle up and was able to lay down a .4375 MOA 3 shot group. A tad low but not too bad. Not bad for a guy who has only been able to shoot up to 750 yards the last few years. Long live the 308!!

You had my complete respect right up until the point you made about spotting deer at 800-1000 yards and sneaking to 500-700 yards for a shot at the unsuspecting deer. Or something along those lines. I agree with you 100% on the trash and driving in the wilderness. I hate it as much or more than you do or the next guy. It is not right nor fair. Hopefully you were able to get the SOB's info and get them reported. That said, don't take this out on all AZ hunters. Just remember when you point the finger at someone else, there are 4 more, well you get the idea. As far as being the hunting ethics police in regards to hunting styles and techniques, you will get ran out of here and in a hurry. This isnt AZ versus NM (or vice versa) and this sure as heck is not open for how far we should or should not be shooting coues bucks. Take that crap somewhere else. Congrats on the tag. M

Sounds like unit 22N is the unit for you!

Can you set it for MILS instead of MOA? This may be on my hit list.

Well beings how my new barrel arrived today and all my reloading supplies yesterday, its now official,,,,,I have joined the dark side. You see, my new barrel is not 30 caliber. Nor is it 338 caliber. No not a 7mm either. A 26 caliber to be exact. Yes, a new 6.5mm barrel arrived today. The only thing I am waiting on now is my new reamer from PTG. It should be here this up coming week. This will be a 6.5x284. I know how you all know how much I hate barrel burners but I contend that alot of the reason the 6.5x284 has such a bad reputation is due to the long shot strings from shooting in matches. Since it a favorate round among the match crowd for its amazing ballistic performance to recoil ratio. The match crowd also 'hot rods' them milking as much pressure as possible. Between running high pressure loads and 20 round (+sighters) shot strings, I can see why these have such a bad rep as a barrel burner. I have no intentions of running high pressure loads or long shot strings. In fact, I am going to treat this like my 338 Edge. Shoot one and wait a minute before the next one. This will finish to 27-1/4" in Sendero contour with 6 flutes, stainless steel and 8 twist. I have already loaded some 'break in' loads for it and a couple more to test case volume and load density. I think I will try H4831SC, H4350 and H1000. Not neccesarily in that order, BR2 and 215 Gold Medal Match primers, housed by Lapua brass and topped off with 140 AMAX's and 140 Berger VLD's. This will be my coues deer, dall sheep and hopefully one day, antelope rig. Will keep you posted after I get her chambered, threaded, fitted, crowned and finished. Regards! M

I hate to be the one to disagree with Bill but to me, this is not about competition or seeing other hunters. This is about the overall quality of game and numbers of game decreasing due to the abundance of elk tags given. Look at unit 22N. The genes have been there in the past as well as mature bulls. The genes are still there but the best genes are few and far between and mature bulls are even fewer. More tags = less quality period. It is little wonder why some other states are starting to dominate the record books in regards to quality bulls. Some other states are managing their herds for quality. Can you imagine what units 8, 9, 10, 1, 27, 3A/3C etc...would be like if the same mentality for 'hunter opportunity' was adopted there such as in the case of 22N? I say to he!! with hunter opportunity and yes to more quality game. Even if permits cost more and we have to wait longer. If you want hunter opportunity and elk meat every year, hunt elk in CO. If you dont want to hunt CO due to the piss poor quality of the bulls, then wait till AZ continues to adopt the same mentality. Then you will be waiting even longer for those out of state tags where the bulls are being managed. I realize there is more to elk and herds than just big bulls but why destroy a great thing for more coins and hunters in the woods? Unless you want to hunt spikes and 3x4's every year it doesnt make sense.

I honestly dont know that much about it and am afraid of being a test subject for it. I think with running normal pressures and spacing shots over time I will get the life I am looking for out of it.

27 if you can handle the remote rugged terrain.

Thats good to hear. One of these days I will get around to trying the SST's on game. I definately think you will be pleased with the 200 Game King in your 308. A little much for coues bucks etc....but for elk and large mulies, you wont be disapointed.

Can you elaborate? What caliber? What velocities? Did you recover any of them? I have shot SST's but never shot game with them. I have been interested in them for game, just never got around to trying them on game. They are cheaper than Interbonds and ACCUBONDS but didnt know if they would come unglued on elk etc... Thanks in advance for the info. M

My 700 short since my bolt face and feed rails wont need modification and my long action would need a complete overhaul. Dont forget I am running a long box magazine. Having loaded some dummy rounds at 2.985" I have been able to reliably feed them in and out of my magazine and the bullets are not that far into the case. I have one with 50 grains of H4831 in it and there is plenty of room to spare. Another with 55 grains of H1000 and the bullet just barely bumps the powder. This is with 140's. 55 grains of one powder or the other will most likely be at or beyond max pressure so I am not worried about running these at 2.985" even though many think a short action is a waste for a 6.5x284. Not sure why as where the boat tail meets the bearing surface of the bullet is even with the bottom of the neck with the 140's. Plenty of case capacity is left. How are you going to 308nut without a 308 you better find you another action!!! I like the look of that 6.5 as well, good luck with your new endeavor. Its very simple! I am still a 308 fan and always will be AND like my 700LA, the recoil lug is pinned to the action where I have my 338 barrel and my 300 barrel. I remove one and thread on the other. My 338 barrel and my 300 are within 2 clicks vertically and 6 clicks horizontally at 300 yards. With a bit of luck, my current 308 barrel and my new 6.5 barrel will be close to the same POI as well. BTW, my 300 barrel still prints .5 MOA. I have been using that lately to 1) save my 338 barrel and 2) lower the recoil. Even though my 308 is cooked, cooked is a subjective term, it still holds MOA accuracy which for range time is sufficient. Simply put, like my 700LA, it is a switch barrel gun. Even though my 700SA may wear a 6.5 barrel, in less than 2 minutes, it can wear my 308 barrel. In that sense, I will still have a 308 and vice versa.

And that goes for me as well. And no you didnt say anything stupid. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Which Hornadys do you use? I am also a huge hornady fan. AMAX mostly but the BTSP's work great also. For coues I like the AMAX but if my rifle liked the TTSX or LRX better, I would certainly use them over the AMAX and with confidence. Or the Bergers for that matter.

My 700 short since my bolt face and feed rails wont need modification and my long action would need a complete overhaul. Dont forget I am running a long box magazine. Having loaded some dummy rounds at 2.985" I have been able to reliably feed them in and out of my magazine and the bullets are not that far into the case. I have one with 50 grains of H4831 in it and there is plenty of room to spare. Another with 55 grains of H1000 and the bullet just barely bumps the powder. This is with 140's. 55 grains of one powder or the other will most likely be at or beyond max pressure so I am not worried about running these at 2.985" even though many think a short action is a waste for a 6.5x284. Not sure why as where the boat tail meets the bearing surface of the bullet is even with the bottom of the neck with the 140's. Plenty of case capacity is left.

Interesting. Berger claims that it takes 1800 FPS for expansion. Barnes has told me numerous times 1600 FPS for theirs and possibly less FPS on flesh. Bergers tend to have higher BC which will allow them to maintain velcoity better than barnes, but I wouldnt call the Barnes a poor long range performer. Also, pass throughs does not always translate into energy wasted. A pass through with an FMJ is energy wasted. A pass through with an expaned bullet is a job well done. Massive amounts of energy have still been transfered. Just because it did not desintegrate inside the animal does not mean energy was wasted. We can debate all we want. The GOOD NEWS is that in the context of this thread, coues deer are pretty forgiving when it comes to bullet selection. Bump it up to elk and moose and that interjects a whole new set of rules.

Sweet buck. I know that background.

Thats a sweet buck worthy of a tag.

Seen this many times. Just buy her her own rifle. She will be much happier. The 260 Remington gets my vote. Its good enough for elk with the right bullet and has very mild recoil.

When you draw the line at 600 yards it greatly simplifies things. Windage out to 600 yards even in a full 10MPH 9 or 3:00 direction will be similar whether you use a Berger or the Barnes 175 LRX or the 180 ACCUBOND or SST or Ballistic tip etc... Pick the bullet your rifle likes the best, learn how to use it and be happy. For a 'coues only' load, I prefer the AMAX. They have good BC's, expand rapidly for coues and expand at MUCH lower velocities than the Bergers or Barnes. I have used them close up as well with great results. As far as the 110 and 130 Barnes for a serious 600 yard rifle, I think is a big mistake. You will need a much better BC to keep your windage down and your velocity up for expansion. Try at the very least the 165 or 168 TTSX's and better yet the 175 LRX. If you go with the Bergers, I would use at a minimum 168 and preferably the 185, 190 or 210. For AMAX's. the 168, 178 or 208 gets my vote. I used a 168 AMAX on my 09 coues buck and my cousin shot his with the same rifle/load. Mine was 440 and his was 502. Wound channels were pretty large and both were pass throughs. Good size exits but not huge. One dropped straight down and the other went a few yards and piled.

You have heard the term "the lesser of two evils" right? It really does apply here. What is the lesser of the two evils here? That is for you to decide. As much as I hate them, I have one on my 338 Edge. It weighs a little over 10 pounds which is extremely light for the caliber espescially running top loads with 300 grain pills. Even with the brake it is a beast to be reckoned with on the butt end. I shot it once accidentally without it and that was the last time. It is truely unbearable. I wont even hunt without the brake. I will suffer through the dust and grass kick up etc...Since it is also very light for the loads and recoils so violently, it tends to shoot bigger groups unless I REALLY pay attention to my form, even with the brake. I cant imagine how horrible the groups would be without it. Even if I could handle the recoil, the gun would be too unforgiving to shoot consistent groups and POI. FWIW, my brake has the ports angled forward which extremely cuts down on the blast to your ears for the occasions that a shot is taken in the field where in the heat of the moment you forgot to put your ear plugs in. I have done that and I am glad they are angled forward. It actually isnt that bad unless the barrel is near the ground when it goes off. It also doesnt piss they guy off next to you at the range. To me, for this rifle at least, the brake is hands down the lesser of two evils. I for one hate brakes, hence the reason I do most of my shooting and hunting with a 308 and soon a 6.5x284. That said, I enjoy hunting larger than average game at times (IE moose, elk etc...) and I love doing at longer ranges, it requires the right tool for the job. A moose at a half mile is no job for a 308 or 6.5. Sometimes smaller isnt better. If you can get through 10-12 rounds in a session at the range (not back to back days) and feel good about it, you shouldnt need a brake. If you leave the range thinking about the recoil, its time to get a brake. If you start thinking about the recoil before the shot goes off, its time to get a brake. Regards, M

Never had much success with Winchester brass. Lot to lot variences, cases to case variences. Several get culled out per package. Federal is OK. Seems to be thicker than most. The last few years, Remington has been producing some very consistent case to case and lot to lot brass. It has been holding up well as well. I also end up with at least 2 extra cases in evey bag of Remington cases I buy. Hornady brass has been decent. Nosler makes consistent brass, but they seem to be too soft and the longevity sucks. I dont know about recent years but 10 years ago I hated Weatherby brass. Way to expensive for the consistency of it. Cant vouch for Norma. Just what I have heard. Would not be afraid to try it.