308Nut

I am running H4831SC in a Lapua case with Remington 9-1/2 primers under the 140 Berger 'Match Hunting VLD' at 2.980", JUST BARELY kissing the lands. Just toughing seems to be the sweetest spot for this bullet in this barrel. 49.9 grains is what I am using for 2937 FPS. I had bought 1# of it to test which the results were so so until I tried the Remington 9-1/2 primers. Then she woke up. Accuracy tightend and the ES/SD fell off the table. Most groups ES are 1-8 FPS and a few groups will show 9-12 and once in a blue moon I will see 15. I shoot nearly every round over the chrony whether I am testing or just practicing so I can really get a feel for my average and ES/SD. Anyway, back to the point,...,I developed a great load with the H4831SC I had. 50.5 and 51.5 were scary accurate and then bought 8# of it. Not being able to find the same lot of it of course. Well I started low and worked back up and I am glad I did because 1 grain less of the new was over was 25 FPS faster than the 1st lot. It is a much hotter lot. Now 49.9 is what I am using for 2937. So, BE CAREFULL if you decide to use any info here. Most guys start around 49 and work up. Hodgdon shows even less than that. All that said, I was testing H1000 today and shot a .488" group at 300 yards with 53.7 grains using Federal 210M primers. Same bullet, same COAL. The H4831SC loads have shot equally well at times but I am hoping to fill the case up better and have a bit less pressure. So we will see if it will stay consistent. Both of my best previous loads using H4831SC and H4350 have yielded consistent .100-.300 accuracy. Mostly .300 but often .200 and sometimes less. Once in a while it will print .4 to .5 MOA but RARELY. Hopefully H1000 will show the same results. This is by far the most accurate set up I have ever had. It is a pure dream.

It varies between 4 or 5 but this one is 4 years old.

Energy is only a mathematical equasion. A 180 grain FMJ bullet with an impact velocity of 2000'/sec will have the same 'energy' as an expanding bullet of the same weight and speed. The key hear, as has been stated by svjcon is energy transfer. A Barnes will deliver that transfer and further than most think. Espescially on a dense muscled, thick boned, deep chested critter like an elk. A 180 TTSX out of a 300RUM will cleanly take an elk at ranges most hunters could only dream about. If they are shooting good then stay with them. The largest bull moose (arctic bull) I have taken estimated at over 1800#, roughly twice the size of most bull elk you will encouter fell rather quickly to the Barnes 180 XBT (discontinued) from a 308. 2400 FPS was the muzzle velocity. You will have another 700-800FPS over and above that. 1 MOA is fine for an elk load. Even at distance.

RL25 or H1000 or in some cases H50BMG under 180-200 grain pills work great. RL25 or H50BMG for 200+ grainers. The key is to watch your neck tension, seating depth and bullet runout. My pet loads for 2 different 300RUMs were 92.5 H50BMG under 208 AMAXs and 90 of RL25 or 100 H50BMG under the 178 AMAX and 180 ACCUBOND. 95 H50BMG under the 200 gain ACUBOND. All were with Fed 215 match primers. Sweet spot velocities for the 180 class bullets seems to be around 3200-3250 and 3100-3150 for the 200s. Higher velocities are possible but you will pay dearly for it in other areas. Factory rifles seem to prefer H1000, RL25 or RETUMBO. Tight tolerance barrels/chambers prefer those as well in less than published data and many times excel even to a higher degree with the H50BMG. Whether it be H1000, RETUMBO, RL25, H50BMG etc.... shoot for a powder that offers you the velocities listed above with a fairly high or 100% load density. You should find what you are looking for. Let us know how it turns out.

Amen to that. I previously thought wool socks would be too hot for early season hunts even up here but started using them just for the extra cushin while wearing stiff mountaineering boots under heavy loads in the back country. What I found was that my feet never overheated and I could wear 1 pair for 2 or even 3 days before they really took on a foul odor. Last year during my September muzzleloader hunt in 22 South I thought this thick blooded person who ended up drinking 2-1/2 gallons of water a day (and needed more) would definately have my feet over heated in them and it just was not the case. I only packed a few pair since I was pretty much in the back country and even with all the sweating I did (which I was in a constant state of sweat) still did not stink like I thought they would. Maybe I should have been wearing wool shirts and pants??!!

2725FPS. Using 89.0 grains of H1000. I love the caliber and the 300VLD. The 300 grain bullets is what makes the big 338's what they are. If you need 200's to 225's, there is no need for such a big case. For smaller 338's, they cant get the 300 grainers up fast enough to retain enough velocity for expansion at long range. So IMHO, the 338 Edge/RUM/Lapua and the 300 grain pills are a match made in heaven. For a 'close to the truck rifle' or one you intend on hiking into some hill top to remain for a few days, the 338/300 grain cartridges are the way to go. They are as easy to tune as a 308 and deliver amazing amounts of down range energy with the least amount of wind drift. In a 'lightweight' rifle they just hammer me way too much. With the high recoil it is hard to keep 'flyers' to a minimum. The overall accuracy has been decent just somewhat inconsistent when she bounces all over the place. I can load down to 225's with reduced velocities to manage recoil better but then I am limited on range and I don't need a 28" barrel rifle while still hunting in the brush AND what I can do with the 225's at a reduced velocity I can do with a 338 Win mag. Hence the reason they just don't mix too well. It is in a kind of no mans land. Not consistent enough for serious, clean long range work and geared up for long range work and too big and bulky to the point that it is not optimum for a still hunting rifle. Like you, I LOVE the fit, feel, balance, function, carry charecteristics and look of this rifle. Just not the way it kicks and subsequently the way it shoots (or the way I shoot it because of it). I will most likely convert this rifle to a 300WSM or maybe a 338WMS (wildcat). Try the 210 Bergers. I have not had any trouble with the 300VLD tips in the 338 Edge deforming while in the magazine. Worst case scenario is they don't hold up and you wasted 40 dollars. Best case scenario is you get your 5 star meal for $40.00.

Your smith's statements are correct regarding the light weight rifle/muzzle energy ratio being the culprit. Even with a brake, a rig that light driving bullets that heavy with that big of a case is going to generate more than average recoil. It may not seem that bad to you which could be stock design, recoil pad etc...but that recoil energy is still there. He is also right in the regard that stiffening the spring won't fix the problem Not sure about another magazine systems but doubt that in and of itself would fix your problem. Those polymer tips are typically VERY tough. Recoil shouldn't smash them despite the fact that it is happening. That said, call Hornady as see if they have had any other complaints about that particular lot# - OR - try another lot# of 208's. It may be as simple as a bad mix of polymer. OR try 210 Bergers which don't have a polymer tip. Unfortunately, there is rarely a free lunch. Performance comes at a price. In your case, you are trying to have high performance in the weight area AND you are trying to have high performance in the exterior ballistics area. Either is very achiveable but together often causes problems such as what you are seeing and 100 other things you just cannot foresee until you get there. I have some experience with 'light weight' rifles in BIG calibers such as my 338 Edge. 1: I absolutely LOVE the 338 Edge as a cartridge and what it is capable of. 2: I absolutely LOVE everything about that rifle, EXCEPT the fact that this rifle is chambered in 338 Edge. Take your rifle and then add another 92 grains of bullet. It does not work as well as I had hoped for. Both the caliber AND my rifle are awesome but together they don't mix well. I don't like using my hunting rifles as a single shot either but is sometimes what happens when you start trying to milk every yard down range. Some times it's due to case capacity for extra velocity and other times its because you trying to fine tune a load by driving them into the lands. We try not to resort to these so as to keep them in the magazine but sometimes it just is not in the cards. Both of my primary rifles have loads that for their peak accuracy AND performance, are too long for the magazine even though both are extended boxes. Most of my hunting I will carry something in the magazine that fits for 'emergencies' but if I need long shots then I have bullets to be loaded indavidually. For my 308, I am lucky to have all my loads fit the magazine but it does not offer the performance of my 338 Edge or my 6.5x284 either. My loads for the 338 which offer peak accuracy wont fit the magazine. The loads I have that do fit offer only average accuracy. For my 6.5x284 I get good accuracy with loads that will just fit the magazine but phenominal accuracy happens when they are just a hair bit too long. None of this may be what you want to hear but it is part of the game you are trying to play. Welcome to the world of high performance rifles.

Well I finally got the 308 re-barreled to the 6.5x284. All I can say is what a he!! of a time I have had breaking in this barrel. I am not sure if Dan lapped this bore or not but after 13 break in loads, it copper fouled the same as shot #1. Shot #1 fould like he!!. Using the shoot one and clean one method was pretty boring. I gave up after 13 rounds. I have about 50 through the barrel at this point and still fouls like he!!. This may be my last Lilja barrel thats for sure. I have tested a few powders. H4831SC, H4350, H1000, RETUMBO and RL17. RETUMBO offers very high load densities and rediculous velocities. To the tune of over 3100 FPS in a 27" barrel with well over 100% load density. It seems like a stout but reasonable load. .4 MOA was achievable around 3000 FPS. RL17 offered absolutely absurd velocities. Over 3100 FPS with room for more. That said, I have no intentions of seeing how far I can push this. .3 MOA was achieved at 3000+ FPS. H4350 has shown real promise. Accuracy is better than average with VERY low extreme velocity spreads. Velocity could be better but it's not bad. Around 2890 with room for more. H4831SC showed some promise as well. The verdict is still out on H1000. All tests have been done with the 140 grain Hornady AMAX. The complete rifle weighs 2.0 ounces less than the 308 and the felt recoil is NOTICEABLEY less than my 308. The again, I run anywhere from 168-210 grain pills in the 308. The 140 grain pills kick less than my 308 with the 150's. Alot less. Between the accuracy potential I am seeing and the rediculously low recoil (especially for the ballistic performance) I think the 6.5x284 and I are going to get along very well. Dan Lilja an I may be at odds right now but the 6.5 and I are going to have a great relationship. M

While late hunts offer more predictable bulls versus rutting bulls, at least big/old bulls are visible during the rut. You cannot kill what you cannot find. Rut hunts offer more opportunities and better odds of finding the best bulls.

Anytime you put older bucks on the ground it opens the door for young ones to become old. Let the old ones die of old age and crop the young ones, the herd suffers, period.

I second the bone collector and blackhorn 209 powder. Stay away from 'muzzle loader' 209 primers and get plain shot shell 209 primers. I had the best luck with the 290 grain barnes projectiles. Am getting top velocities with sub MOA accuracy to 200 yards. 1.5 MOA accuracy at 300 yards. Remember, muzzle loader charges are measured in 'volumetric' grains and NOT weighed grains. Volumetric is 70% of weighed charges. Keep us posted.

I think this a great management strategy. Think about it. Older bucks will be targeted during the late hunts. Most of the really old bucks in many units die of old age or predation. Since many of the older age class mulie buck are nearly un-killable during early general seasons, most hunters in the general season settle on average bucks 1-4 years old. The old ones die naturally and the young ones get cropped before they get old. No wonder the deer population and trophy potential is hurting. Targeting older age class bucks helps take the pressure off the younger bucks. If hunters killed every 8 year old deer in every unit every year without killing immature bucks, there would be more 8 year olds the next year. And the next year etc....Killing mostly immature bucks in a given unit does nothing for the quality of deer. They need these late hunts in conjunction with LESS general season tags or have horn restrictions such as at least 3 (maybe 4) points on one side. Sure everybody would hate it at first. 10 years down the road everybody would be praising AZGFD. The trophy potential would be awesome. Just my .02$

A waiting period would certainly help with the premium tag chasers. Any raise in odds is good regardless of how insignificant it may seem. That said, the problem with applying for and drawing premium tags is not with waiting period or no waiting periods. The fact is, Arizona has WAY more applicants than premium tags. The point/draw structure is such that for some species such as elk, if you pick a number, get in line and wait your turn, you will draw a premium tag. Unfortunately for unit 13 deer, antelope and sheep, there are far more applicats and max point holders than there are tags. IMHO early general bull elk tags, some of the 'north of the CO River' mulie tags and general antelope tags should be once in a lifetime. I also think the 'once in a lifetime' bag limits should be changed to 'once in a lifetime' tags. Early archery or muzzle loader bull elk tags should come with a waiting period. It's not punishing hunters, just giving others a better chance. There just isn't enough quality tags to go around for everybody. Cutting out previous tag holders would help those who aren't previous tag holders. Up here, premium tags require a 4 year wait once drawn. I know when I am applying for those tags, I am grateful that I am not competing with 400 other hunters who have had their day. We don't have bonus points. It is 100% random. Or so they say....Like AZ there always seems to be somebody who draws 1-3% draw odd tags all the time and others that can't draw 25-30% draw odd tags to save their lives. The bottom line is, there are just far more applicants than premium tags. No matter what you do to the drawing proccess, good tags will be hard to draw. The more applicants there are, the higher the overall human population. The higher the human population, the less habitat there is for the game. It is a compounding problem and a vicious cycle. Pick a number, get in line and wait your turn. That goes for me too even though I don't like it. M

You know there is some government employee sitting at his computer all day for the last week with his finger on the 'enter' button just taunting us by laughing and watching us all panic and hold our breaths. PRESS THE DAM|\| KEY A-H0!@

One very common thing I read on this forum is that December CWT tags are "over-rated". This means different things to different hunters. If hunter A would rather have as many opportunities to hunt as possible and all other factors take a back seat, then yeah, the are way over-rated. Otherwise who are they kidding? I am with Tines on this. Given a choice, most here would take the December tag. IMHO, those who say it's over-rated are just trying to feel better about not drawing their 1st choice December hunt and settling on second choice tags on most years. Having hunted early archery, early general, late archery and late general I know for me which tag I would take. I will agree that it can be frustrating trying to get a good buck to sit still long enough to kill him but I tend to see more bucks and more 'shooter' bucks during the rut and pre-rut. It's no secret that most of your truely great trophy bucks while there in the early season, do not expose themselves like other bucks until the air smells right. Unfortunately, the air does not smell right until December. At no other time except for January are such great trophies the most visible. I also am a sucker for thick necks and nice winter hair. Rutting members of the deer family is exciting for me. Longer seasons, less hunters etc...These are the reasons I would rather hunt December. It isn't always about the size of the bucks either. It is often times about a quality hunt and experience. The December hunts are a high quality hunt worth waiting for as long as you have other opportunities to help you bide your time. For others, having any tag in their pocket is a high quality hunt. If you are getting to an age in your life when waiting 5-8 years between tags is not desireable then the early tags are the best tags to have period. Pick what works for you and fits your needs the best.

He said the main reason was the fifths were a little week. He change his mind two days later but the elk had left the country. GOOD!!!!

After having a lot of copper fouling issues, I switched from the 140 AMAX to the 140 Berger 'Hunting VLD'. Copper fouling is now very very minor. For some reason the jacket of the AMAX just does not get along with my bore. I dont know if the copper is too hard, too soft, not the right alloy. Who knows. That being the case, I don't think I am going to send it back to Lilja for re-lapping even though Dan offered to look it over and re-lap it if it did not stop copper fouling. This barrel when shooting the Bergers actually cleans as easy or easier than any barrel I have ever owned. A wet patch (powder solvent), a dry patch, wet, dry, wet brush 10-15 strokes, dry, dry, 3 wet patches (copper solvent) 15-20 strokes each, dry and then oil. After seeing fairly high extreme velocity spreads with H4831SC and Federal 210 Match primers, I tried a few different primers. Remington 9-1/2, CCI BR2, CCI 250 mag and Federal 215 Match. Using the same charge weight, bullet and seating depth, The 2 magnum primers did not fare to well. Accuracy was not good and the ES was high. The BR2 was a hair more accurate and the ES was a little better. The Remington 9-1/2 though were awesome. Good accuracy and very low extreme speads. I still have not seen super accuracy potential yet but very good accuray potential. At 300 yards groups are between 0.5 and 0.6 MOA and most of the being 0.55-0.58 MOA which is not bad but not great. With this in mind, it is very consistent. With a couple of powders, it never seems to throw fliers. They always group. Just not with the 0.35 MOA (+/-) accuracy I would like. There have been times it has shot 0.1-0.35 MOA but not with repeatability. Now that I am using a bullet that lends itself to more consistent fouling, consistent small groups most likely will result. I have not yet adjusted seating depth for either the AMAX or the VLD. I have one more ladder test to do with the VLD and H4831SC, then I will take the best load and adjust the seating depth. Between more consistent fouling and seating depth I am confident that I will have a load or loads that will be in the .3-.4 range consistently. Recoil is still much more manageable than my 308 even with top end loads. Not that my 308 is bad but less is always appreciated. More exterior ballistic performance and less recoil is what makes this cartridge so popular. I have really baby'd this barrel. I have not ran more than 1 round per minute and 3 per session max before letting it cool nor do I run very hot loads. So far after 120 rounds, the throat area and first few inches don't feel rough or sticky when cleaning it. That's always a good sign. Hopefully the throat will last longer than average. Time will tell. Will keep you posted. M

A quick update: H4350 still seems like the go to powder for this rifle. The worst group of all that I have shot with H4350 was right at 1MOA at 300 yards. A few have been .65MOAish and a few have been .5MOAish with 1 group at 0.4MOA and another at 0.149MOA. This was a sweet 0.448" group at 300 yards! All I did was add one more 1/2 grain of powder to my best load. Every group shows very good ES's as well. I think 13 FPS is the worst I have seen and many are single digits. My target velocity has been 2923 FPS or higher. This would get me to 1000 pounds of energy at 1000 yards at coues, sheep and anteloppe altitudes which is what this rifle is for. My velocity is 2932 so I think I might stop development there. One more test to confirm it is a consistent load and I will stop. It still copper fouls like he!! but Dan Lilja said if I get to 75 rounds and it is still giving me trouble to send it back so he can look at it and most likely re-lap it. He said that lately he has had to re-lap a few. A couple of weeks ago I talked with a guy down south that had the same problem. He sent it to Dan for re-lapping and he has n ot had a problem since. I am almost scared to send it in as it seems to be a very consistent shooting barrel. If it shoots I almost don't care about the fouling as it does clean up fairly easily. I am at 83 rounds.

Thanks for the tip. I will definately be trying these next.

Not sure how finicky the 6.5 AMAXs are but the 308 AMAXs were pretty tollerent of jump. I could find sweet spots .040" out in a Hart 11x and well over .050" in a factory 11.25x. Hopefully, the 6.5s are as forgiving but I dont know yet.

It is pretty simple. The bolt face is the same so the action could care less if it is a 308 or 6.5x284. I highly recommend converting the box magazine to a Wyatt extended. I can get my loads out to 2.990 and still feed smoothly. Many guys put this cartridge on a long action. I am not sure why. The reasoning has always been to maximize powder capacity. I find that rather funny. You can't get enough 4831, 4350, RL17 or H1000 to fill the case without being WAY over-pressured as it is. The exception might be if using RETUMBO to its max potential which is less than 60 grains. 59 grains fills the case right up to the neck/shoulder junction. That being said, I was able to compress this and still fit my magazine but barely. 55.5 is my sweet spot (for RETUMBO) so there is no need to worry about running 59 grains. 59 offered over 3100 but I have no interest in cooking my barrel. 2930-3000 is my end goal. Benefits is a subjective term. I think for antelope, coues deer, wild sheep maybe large mule deer this will be a stellar round. Out to 500 yards, I dont see a huge benefit in any areas. The energy, wind drift values of the 308 are more than adequete for 500 yards. Past that and the 6.5 really starts to shine in the windage and energy department. There is also less recoil. The trade off is barrel life. A good 308 barrel could last 2-5 times what a 6.5x284 barrel will last. There comes a point where the energy values exceed that of the 308. I still love my 308's and I would rather hunt moose with my 308 than my 6.5, even though the Sweeds have been doing it for quite some time. The best of 49.5, 50.0 and 50.5 was 50.5 grains of H4831SC with 210M primers. 140 AMAXs are about .020 off the lands (Velocity was 2840 with a 1.6" group at 300 yards. It seems like a mild load at this point so I will work up to 53.0 unless pressure signs show up. The best load so far has been 46.5 grains of H4350. Better accuracy and MUCH lower extreme spreads. Each set of loads running H4831SC showed high ES. One group was as high a 45 FPS. The 3 groups of H4350 was stellar. The worst of it was 12 FPS. The best was 5 FPS. 210M primers. This was at 2891 FPS with room for more.I will work up to 49.0 or until pressure signs show up. I may try different primers with the 4831 to see if the ES comes down. 215M or BR2s. I did not get a PM from you.

+1. I shot a mature bull moose with a 200AB and my buddies said his whole body shook and rippled.

Well the 'gods' here were good to me by drawing my name for a dall sheep tag. We can get sheep tags over the counter but like other states, the draw tags are typically better. I use to hunt an area in the Chugach Mountains before it went to a drawing only. It was an awesome area. Lots of rams, nice rams, big rams, good scenery, close to home, etc....I took a couple rams out of the area and vowed to hold out for a real monster. After 4 years, they decided to go drawing so the year before it went to draw, I decided to shoot the first legal ram I saw since I knew it would be the last time I would be able to hunt the area. I shot a nice ram on opening day of 07. In 08, as luck would have it, I drew a tag for my area in the first year! There were only 5 permits and I never saw a single soul other than game. I shot my first double broomed ram late in the hunt. I thought wow! these tags are easy to draw. Then the stats came out the next year and the odds were less than 3% YIKES!! Boy did I get lucky?!! Well last year the odds were less than 4% and I drew it this year again! The only difference is that it is a later hunt than the one I had. I applied for the 2nd hunt as their fur is nicer and the real boss hogs come down lower. It's also a longer hunt. Anyway you slice it, there are some gorgeous rams in this area. To top it all off, my hunting buddy Charlie drew the same tag I had in 08 and the same area I have this year only the first hunt. In 08, he drew the late hunt in an adjoining area as to the area I had. What are the freaking odds?!!! Boy I CANNOT wait to back in the Chugach Mountains!!! Now let's hope (or at least I will hope) that the 'gods' at the Arizona Game & Fish as as good to me this year as well.....

All guns are loaded. When mine come out of the safe, the muzzle is always pointed somewhere safe and the bolt gets opened to verify that it is unloaded. When not being used, I use my pinky finger to verify the chamber is clear. Then I depress the firing pin by setting the safety in the firing position then pulling the trigger while slowly closing the bolt. Weakened firing pin springs will slow the locktime of the firing pin when the trigger is pulled.

I didn't know you could use a credit card in AZ last year...?? Or are you referring to the Javi hunts?