308Nut

I forgot what a nice buck that is. You didn't tell me you guys saw a lion.....

Tips like that are the norm. Inconsistent meplats have more to do with a variance in bc than raw accuracy. For obvious reasons, varying BC's will = larger groups way down range but not 200 yards. uniforming them won't help that much at shorter ranges. Check your scope's parallax between 100 and 200 yards. Sometimes a load just does not do as well at longer ranges as it does shorter ranges. Sometimes it's the opposite and sometimes it's the same MOA value from 100 yards to 1000 yards.

A reloading press and a bullet seating die is about the easiest way. Sorry!!!! I just couldn't resist a little humor. Hornady brass is consistent and prepped well but does not seem to handle top end loads well. Primer pockets loosen up after 1 or 2 loadings.

They're suppose to be available in march. The 338 300 grain AB's were available pretty close to when speculated. These will most likely be in demand much more so than the 300 grain AB was.

Running a 3 groove Lilja 8x 27.25". Criterion? Are those bores chrome lined? How's the accuracy and clean up. Been looking at those recently. Also been looking at Schneider barrels. Gunsmithing is expensive up here. 450 bucks for a chamber, fit, crown and bead blast. At least by a good smith you can trust. Add flutes and it costs me 900 bucks for a rebarrel. Then range time which I don't mind but I would rather be focusing on practice at LR shooting instead of breaking in barrels, sighting and developing loads. Again, I love my 6.5 but at the pace I like to shoot just doesn't work too well for me. Let me know about the criterion barrels in a pm if you want so we can quit hijacking this thread.

There lays a potential problem for a long range shooter. 20 rounds a year does not lend itself to being profficient at ranges this caliber was made for. It's a nasty conundrum. FWIW, I have just topped the 500 round mark with my 6.5x284. I have watched its accuracy degrade after 375 rounds. What was a solid .2-.3MOA rifle now is a .6-.7MOA rifle. I have not hot rodded it and not fired more than 1 shot per minute for 3 shots and then a total cool down. My go to load has been 49.9 of H4831SC under the 140 VLD at 2881 FPS with Rem 9-1/2 primers. Using a 3 groove barrel to boot. I was hoping for a good long life running moderate loads over a slow course of fire but so far I am disappointed in what I am seeing. I have taken good care of the barrel and stayed on top of the carbon. While the throat has only moved a couple of thousands, the first few inches are firecracked pretty bad. Maybe I should lower my accuracy standards. I am going to fire lap it, have it set back an inch and have a quarter inch taken off the muzzle to see if I can milk some more good accurate life out of her. If I do another 284 based cartridge I am going to try the straight 284. Sucks because the 6.5x284 is such a sweet cartridge. I am totally on board and share your enthusiasm on not needing 70+ grains of powder and 30+ pounds of recoil for LRH. Barrel life on big magnums is not the greatest either. All things considered, I am still stuck on the 308. It fits my shooting style. It is cheap to operate, scary accurate, has sufficient ballistic/terminal performance and allows me to own a barrel for several years. Since i get so married to them, I use it for hunting. The 308 I have now has a 1/2" 100 yard 3 shot guarantee for 10,000 rounds. As long as the round count is documented in their supplied log book, they will make it right. It is a legitimate sub 1/4 MOA rifle. A bit heavy for some hunting trips but there are never any free lunches around a good long range hunting rifle. I'm not trying to argue here just sharing another perspective.

The 6.5x284 is hard on barrels for sure, even at safe levels. Just an FYI, running average loads with the 140 VLD type bullets you can get 800-850 pounds of energy at sea level and over 1000 pounds at 5000'. Unfortunately, all the bullets for the 6.5 with BC's high enough to reach those numbers are a bit on the flimsy side for elk. At least in my opinion. That said I have high hopes that Nosler will introduce a 140 in their new ALR line of bullets. If they can make one with a legitimate .610 or better, this would open a lot of possibilities for the 6.5's. I know the 190 30 cal should open a lot of doors for my 308. Both would offer the retained energy levels and the expansion properties as well as the durability needed for elk at ranges previously thought to be too far for elk. I guess we'll find out in a few months if they actually will have decent BC's and perform as advertised. I'm hoping for .57-.59 for the 190. Most manufacturers are within 5-10% of their claimed BC's. At a claimed .64 for the 190 it would be .576 with a 10% inflation factor. Here's for hoping......

Yes the velocities are low. I run them much faster than that. I agree that the 140 Amax is higher than published. I use .603 for my 6.5x284. Between double chronies and drops they match exactly. I also dont know how Bryan came up with .633 for the 208. I don't know any shooters that have had any success using .633. Most use .648 with a high degree of accuracy. At higher speeds I have found .671 to be the reality over double chronies and drops at 2900 fps. Bryan also admitted to me in public on another forum that he came up with .667 at 2900 as well. Real close. So, run the numbers using .648 versus .603 at 2600-2650 for the 308 and 2750-2800 for the 260 rem. Or....run them with the lower for the 308 at 2600 and the higher at 2800 for the 260. Windage is identical. Much closer than most shooters realize. At the end of the day they are both awesome. Hence the reason I have 3 go to rifles. 1: 308, 1: 6.5x284 and one 338 Edge.

Amax versus Amax, please share you calculations for 8" less windage. Just wondering why we see such a difference. Not worried about the trajectory. Haven't been since decent range finders hit the market. Windage is where it's at. That said, I only come up with 33" of difference in drop. When the windage is equal, I'll take extra energy and barrel life for religious field practice. Again, not trying to show one or the other superior to the other, just that you can't beat one or the other in every category and something is given up no matter which way direction you go.

Where has the site been for the last few days??

Yes the bolt face is the same. The 30-06, 280, 270, 243, 260, 7-08, 308 etc.....all have the same bolt face as the 6.5x284. Long actions work very well but are overrated for 6.5x284 usage. A short action with an extended magazine is also adequate. Seating bullets way out there is not needed. You can have a new barrel throated to have a given bullet engage the lands at any OACL. All of the most popular, proven and accurate powders won't fill the case up safely even at shorter COALs. 47-49 of 4350 or 50-53 of 4831 is all the 6.5x284 can handle safely with 140 grain pills. Any of those charges will allow 2.990" lengths which is adequate for a short action with an extended box. Another usefull load is 59 of Retumbo under the 140s and also works with 2.990 but is very compressed. If you need top velocities you will do better with RL17 than with Retumbo. 4831SC and 4350 are the most popular go to powders for this caliber for a good reason. Peak accuracy, low extreme velocity spreads. With all that in mind, a lot of long range guys converting 30-06s to a 6.5 often go the route of the 6.5-06 wild cat. Many say it feeds better than the 6.5x284 since the 06 case does not have a rebated rim. Never played with the 6.5-06. Keep us posted as this project develops.

Apples to apples are not being compared here. The 140 class bullets in 264 cal are heavy for caliber. The 178 30 cal is a middle weight. Run the 208 Amax against the 6.5x284 using 140 amax's. Both heavy for caliber bullets of similar form factors. The 208 will drift a couple inches less at 1k and hit with 1.5x the energy in a 300 win mag. Don't get me wrong, I own, use and I love the 6.5x284 but it is not a legitimate 1k elk rifle. Yes there is more powder and more recoil. Like most things, everything is a trade off. You want less recoil. You will give up something else. You want more down range energy. You will give up something else. Using similar design bullets you cannot equal or beat beat bigger calibers with smaller calibers period. You can beat certain aspects such as recoil and trajectory but not down range performance. Even comparing the same case design you can only beat so much. The 308 running 208's has identical drift versus the 260 rem 140 at 1k 10mph and yet hit with 1.3 times the energy. The 260 has less recoil and flatter trajectory but less energy. Similar costs to operate with 1/2 or less barrel life than the 308. Both have clear advantages over the other but contrary to popular belief, neither are overall superior to the other.

Rest assured those Projected BC fugures are very high. They will be lower in reality than published. That said they should be a much than the original. For a 308 nut like myself, a high bc 190 with a low expansion threshold will be a dream come true for long range hunting. Holds up at close range, opens at long range, minimal wind drift, more retained energy. I can't wait try give them a shot. Punn intended.

For the previous 3 days it was 404 page not found. I could go to the main site but when I clicked the forum link it was not found.

Great caliber. Neglect the carbon build up in the throat area and you will hate life. Other than that it's great.

Reasonable is such a subjective word. Some people will just never get that. Their world ends at the end of their noses and cannot understand what reasonable means to anybody else. What is reasonable? Is 100 yards reasonable? Is 200? Is 300? Where do you draw the line? I draw the line in the sand where my skills end. That may change from day to day depending on conditions. Where do your skills end? Most of the 3 legged deer out there are from 100 yard off hand shots. Many of those are missed on the first shot too.

+1

+1

Now that's a healthy dose of the pot calling the kettle black....

You just beat me to it!

Sweet mercy that's a long poke. Congrats.

That's funny right there!

Hard to say with such little info. What is your intended target(s)? What bullet(s) do you intend on using? I agree with your smith about the carbon buildup.

Check with a bore scope to see if there is a 'carbon ring' in the throat. These can cause high pressures in even SAAMI spec rifles and loads. You may be reducing it with some cleaning but not enough to elilminate it. Normal cleaning does not typically prevent or eliminate carbon rings even though it may slow them down or reduce them a bit. Once they appear they can cause problems such as what you are having. GM top engine cleaner can help. JB or IOSSO will definately get rid of it but it can polish the metal in the proccess which will cause copper fouling to occur faster so don't over do it and only do it at the throat area. Another way you can tell is to clean the bore the best you can and then push a nylon brush past the muzzle in a dry bore, then pull it back at a slow pace. All should be smooth and then it will come to a stop or offer more resistance depending on how hard and fast you are pulling where it meets the carbon ring if there is one. I don't use a bronze brush for this because the nylon 'glides' easier and is smoother so you can feel it better. I sometimes use bronze for a deep cleaning but use the nylon to look for any carbon rings. Also, a super polished chamber can cause tougher extraction. Similar to a barrel that is lapped properly or not. A polished bore will make copper fouling a problem. Not smooth enough and you have the same problem. Excessively rough chambers can cause sticky extraction and super polished chambers cause the same thing. There is a balance there. If it is not a carbon ring, it is most likely a fouling problem. Try working up a load with a dirty barrel. For my 6.5 it takes 6 shots after even a minor cleaning to settle back to normal. I have the same problem you have only in reverse. The first 5-6 are sticky and then everything is normal. I now use reduced load for foul shots. Every gun is different and there are few hard and fast rules. Let us know what you find.

As a few of you know, I drew a dall sheep tag for my old honey hole which until 2008 was open for an over the counter tag but now is a draw only hunt. My hunt starts August 26th. My hunting buddy Charlie drew the same tag as I did except for his started the 10 and ends the 25th (ended the 11th! ). Both tags are good for any ram so we are not limited to the typical 'legal ram' rules of full curl, age legal or broken. We can harvest 'meat rams' if we wish. Charlie decided to just target any ram instead of hunting for a trophy. I took him to my old honey hole in the Chugach Mountains where he took this 5/8 curl 'meat ram' on the second day. Weather held us up from success on the opener but made the best of it on the second day. Sorry the picture is so milky. The fog was very thick. The fog would come in and out. It cleared long enough for us to find him and stalk him and shoot him and not 2 minutes after the ram dropped (in his tracks!) the fog rolled back in thick. We had to find him in the fog with 90-100 yard visibility at the best of times. Charlie nailed this ram at 575 yards quartering away uphill with my 6.5x284 using 140 grain Berger Match Hunting VLD's (finally found a sweet load that would fit the magazine!) through the high shoulder, spine and came out his throat area. I have been skeptical about using the Berger VLD's for hunting (even though they say hunting) but I feel better now about using them. At least for now. The exit was not huge yet adequete (about an 5/8") and the it did not seem to blow up. That said, it was a smaller young ram which was fairly light boned and not too deep. Not sure what would happen on a large mature heavier boned and deeper ram but I am comfortable now to at least try them on my up and coming hunt. This is Charlie's 5th dall ram. Part II to follow in September after my hunt come success or failure.