308Nut

26" is a great balance for the 6.5x284. Mine has worn 27-1/4" and now wears 26" I don't feel like I'm giving up anything except a bit of muzzle blast but still not bad. I've never tried shorter than 26 such as 20-24" so I can only offer a guess. My guess is that your shorter barrel and traditional slower powders won't burn completely and leave you with A LOT of muzzle blast and very reduced velocities. In an effort to keep your velocity up and muzzle blast down, you'll need faster powders which will leave you with a lot of empty space in the case. As has been stated, 8 is very popular. 8.5 has been gaining a lot of popularity and for good reason. 9 works on any hunt in the state if Arizona with its warm air and above sea level location. 2700'sec with the 140 VLD offers a 1.46 stability factor at 5000' altitude and 65 degrees. More than adequate but if you ever hunt near sea level in below freezing you'll drop to 1.11. Still adequate but most guys want a little extra since barrels are sometimes more nominal than exact (ie: 9 twist really turned out to be 9.25). The good news is that it is happening less and less. My next one will be 8.5. It will handle the 140s and the 160 Matrix with ease but I'm not afraid of the 8 twist. Consider a 3 groove barrel. They are holding up better on the barrel burner cartridges. Mine is no exception. The throat has held up much better than the guys at the local matches 5 and 6 groove barrels have been. Granted, I dont use my 6.5 at the matches. Lilja and Mullerworks both make 3 groove barrels. Both are top notch. I had trouble with my last lilja copper fouling but with the day to day consistency of it, accuracy, ease of cleaning etc...I gave up worrying about it. Dan offered to look it over and relap it need be but I never sent it off due to the way it shot.

I have nearly five hundred 300 grain SMK bullets from the same lot I could sell you. I also have a handful of 300 grain hybrids. Let me know. M

140 VLD, 140 Amax, 140 SST are my favorites in the 6.5x284 followed by the 140 Accubond. Call me crazy but I've tested the SST to death and keep coming up with a BC of.58. Well above the published value. Even though the SST has a lower BC versus the VLD and Amax, they expand reliably at 1600'sec which extends your range over the VLD with an expansion threshold of 1800'sec on average. Slightly less mathematical energy but more energy transfer at longer ranges. With all that said, I shoot more VLDs out of my 6.5 than anything but if I drew a good mulie tag I'd use the SST. That's if I didn't take my 308. The ACCUBOND has been very accurate for me to 700+ but they have a very high velocity for expansion requirement and low BC (lower than published) so that limits your range. At coues altitude, they'll get to to 800 with 1800'sec and 1000# of energy. I'd use that on elk and keep it to = < 600. The Amax will expand at well below 1600'sec but will come uncorked on anything bigger than a coues, antelope and depending on the size, mulie bucks. I know if one case where a 140 amax was used on a bull elk. It was also put in the ribs. clean kills with a 140 amax on elk is the exception not the rule. While they aren't classified as a hunting bullet, some hornady reloading manuals state that the Amax is a good thin skinned, light boned animal bullet. I have shot many animals from wolves to deer (coues included!) to moose. I have never seen one fail to perform very well. Except on the moose. It's a bad news bullet regarding bigger game. While I constantly hear about various bullets not performing on game, I've never heard the word Amax and failed in the same sentence. That comment will likly invoke a comment from a frustrated Amax user but I think amax's failing to expand is a rare occurrence. Hope that helps.

Youre welcome. VLDs are for sure finicky as to how far off the lands they are seated. Or into them for that matter. I think more times than not they like to either just kiss the lands or be just .001-.003" off. Depending on the throat of your rifle, you may not be able to get them far enough. Still try them. Sometimes they'll do ok with some jump. If you don't have any luck with them, try the 140 Amax. They're less sensitive. They also have a noticeably higher BC than what's published. I use .603 from based on double cronies and drop tests. I think Litz from Berger uses .600+/-. They also open up nicely on game. Just keep them out of elk. Let us know how she shoots. M

43.0 H4350 under the 140 Amax. Or vld

In all honest stomp, it's just fun to egg you on. Any time somebody is so absolute about what is the best it just begs some some attention. That said, I'm sorry I had some fun at your expense.

FYI, running 185 bergers in a 30-06 has equal wind as a 260 running 140 bergers with 300 pounds more energy, a bigger hole, better barrel life and less radial torque under fire. The 30-06 and 260 are not in the same category.

I don't speak for AverageJoe but I think he's just trying to say the no rounds are superior or inferior to another. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Superior is a broad and subjective term. The 300 win mag is superior to the 260 in SOME categories and the 260 is superior to the 300 win mag in SOME categories but it is largely subjective and based on a given application AND what's important to the shooter. The 260 is a GREAT cartridge for the original posters application and needs but the 260 or any other 6.5 cartridge is not the end all be all of modern hunting rifles. While it is fairly obvious that you have no love for the 30 cals of any variety, the original poster was interested in comparing the 243 to the 260. Not the 260 to the 308, 30-06 or 300 win mag. I do mean all the respect in the above post for you and the 260.

Deleted due to sarcasm

The 260 makes a fine coues rifle. Ballistically, running 140 grain VLDs, Amaxs or SSTs, it has enough stones to get the job done on coues out to 800 yards. Maybe more depending on bullet selection, velocity etc... Comparing it to the 243, it uses the same case but overall the 260 is much stronger down range. Much heavier bullets with much higher BCs. It'll have a bit more recoil but still very very low. And better barrel life to boot! As far as reloading, typically it is not too finicky. Finding supplies? In the current situation, it can be hard to find supplies for many calibers but normally, they're as easy to find as most anything else.

I have a feeling you'll like what you see with the 208s both in accuracy AND terminal performance on deer, sheep and antelope. Work those up and it will be an easy conversion to the 210s when you get them. The 208-215 and even some of the newer 190 and 200 grain VLD variety of 30 cal pills that have become available the last few years have redefined the 300 win mags capabilities.

Quit wasting time and money on loads and development. Free float them and be done with it. Developing an accurate load with a rifle not free floated, then floating often causes inaccuracies. This is due to different harmonic reactions or lack of reactions. A normal harmonic action will happen with a floated barrel. New load development is likely needed but the overall accuracy potential should be better. With all that in mind, there is nothing wrong with the first inch or so ahead of the recoil lug being bedded. Most of the harmonics or vibrations occur after this section

Who does your trigger work and what does it cost?I have a local guy do it... He is swamped busy(waiting list busy) and his pricing is very affordable.... I wanna say it was like $35 or $55 on the trigger but not sure.... We just turned my 300 sendero into a 300Wby Mag and blue printed the action, muzzle break, trigger, and I am dying to get the new scope on it!!! Did you rechamber it to 300wby or rebarrel it?

Only if users don't follow the manufacturers instructions. Older style remmy triggers are great if tuned right

August 22-September 5. I have to be home by the 29th so I'll be down there early looking things over and hopefully get it done in 1 to 3 day hunt. I have 3 units to hunt and only 53 total tags. According to some research, most of the hunting takes place near Elko as most of the applicants there that hunt those units are from there and hunt near Elko. Getting away from Elko should help make for a peaceful and quality hunt. I'll probably fly to Salt Lake City and rent a vehicle to drive over, unless you wanted to hang out. Then I'd fly to Phoenix.

Don't own either.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/05/amazing-wagner-shoots-0-349-50-2x-group-at-600-yards/comment-page-1/#comment-42222 Simply astounding.

Lol! Lol! Lol!! ROFLMAO! Anyway, looks very good. Can't wait to see how it shoots. Those Schnieder barrels are suppose to be outstanding. Glad you went with a brake. Mine kicks like a dam? mule.

I like hoppes and a bronze brush for powder fouling, sweets for copper and some powder fouling and JB (SMALL DOSES) for stubborn carbon buildup. I love Montana extreme bore conditioner for oil and use lithium grease for bolt lugs.

Since you named coues and antelope as the only targets for this rifle I would have to say either the 6.5x284 or the 6.5-06. A close second choice in my opinion is the 280AI. With such narrow thin skinned light boned animals why subject yourself to anymore recoil than necessary? The 280AI would make a fine coues/antelope rifle but will have a bit more recoil BUT would also double as a backup elk rifle. Not that the 6.5 won't handle the elk but the 280AI will certainly offer a bit more forgiveness. All that being said, there's nothing wrong with the plain Jane 30-06. Loaded with the 208, 210 VLD or the new 210 ALR over some of the modern powders and you have a serious contender for a longrange hammer. The windage and impact velocities are near identical to the 6.5x284 but with 300-400 foot pounds more energy and 2.5 times the barrel life than the 6.5. The downside compared to the others listed is recoil. Of the 3 types mentioned the 280AI maybe one of the best all around balance between javelina to elk, barrel life to recoil. Same wind and impact velocities as the 30-06 or 6.5 but 150-200 pounds more energy than the 6.5 and 100-150 pounds less energy than the 30-06. The recoil will be a bit more than the 6.5 but a lot less than the 30-06, at least with bullets that make their down range wind/velocity equal or near equal. Don't look at the trajectory values. That's why you have a rangefinder. 20-30" difference in drop is meaningless at 1k, heck 100" means little if anything at 1k. Windage and bullet expansion are the 2 most critical followed by energy. At least in my opinion. Let us know what you decide.

As far as I know, on a party app there is only one card used for the online system. If there is one problem with ANYTHING on that app, all loose out

I prefer either seekins or nightforce 20 MOA bases. I will only use 1 piece bases bedded to the action. I prefer nightforce UL rings for all my scopes. Lapped of course. Don't underestimate the importance of bedding (where needed) lapping, proper torque.

I did a test a few months ago with R22 in the 6.5x284. 10 degrees to 110 degrees F. With no change in accuracy and 25 FPS difference. Not near as much as many say. Winchester primers. 52.5 works well with the 140 Amax/VLD. 50-53 depending on rifle tolerances of 4831SC is as good as it gets. Single digit ES with rem 9-1/2 primers. 2950 FPS. Accurate as he!!. 46-47 H4350/fed 210 match primers. Single digit ES at 2950 FPS very accurate. 59 retumbo over 215 match 3100 FPS. Decent accuracy. 48-50 R17 BR2 primers 3100+ good accuracy but narrow accuracy nodes.

A special thanks to Amanda for allowing me to post this article. Thank you! It seems like the topic of shooting up or down a hill is a hot topic. A few of us have always covered the principals of bullets shooting high when fired on an incline but we have yet to explain how to set up for an accurate shot when angles are encountered. This article covers the ‘how to’ basics of accurate compensation. It also seems like some hunters here want to know only the how and others the how and why. So, without the frustration of a debate and trying to explain the function while being tired from a long day’s work and the distraction of a 21 month old tugging on me which all leads to incomplete explanations and gross mistakes, I have put together a how to article. I have also included the why. The first part is the how. When you finish reading the ‘how to’, you can choose to stop there or continue to the why. Before we get started, I understand than many members here don’t want to carry a ballistic calculator in the field. When reading the ‘how to’ below, it will seem very lengthy and complicated. Not to worry. Once we get through the how to, there will be some example pictures that will help you see how easy it is to apply the practical application of calculating a corrected bullet drop due to a sloped shot. First the how to: The following calculation is provided by Sierra Bullets. The reference is taken from the Sierra Reloading Manual 4th addition. The correct way to compensate for the angle is to take the ‘baseline reference’ (this will be defined shortly) bullet drop and multiply by the cosine of the angle. Then that value gets deducted from the bullet drop value at the desired range from your rifle’s zero. If the range to your animal happens to be your zero range, then you deduct the calculated value from 0. You will get a negative number. This will be the inch value that you will want to dial. Instead of dialing up as usual, you would dial down. The baseline reference is the bullet drop at the desired range from your rifle when fired from a perfectly level bore or 0 degrees. For example your 200 yard zero = +/- 0” at 200 where the drop from a level bore (using an average load) at 200 yards = 9.5”. It is this ‘baseline’ that ALL other trajectory corrections are based upon, including angle compensation. Compensation value = ((bullet drop from zero at the desired range) – (baseline bullet drop * reverse cosine of the angle)). The reverse cosine of the angle is 1- cosine. For example, 1-.866 = .134. For example using your 200 yard zero when setting up for a 400 yard shot at 30 degrees of angle, you will need to know 3 things. 1: baseline bullet drop at 400 yards (41.75”). 2: Corrected bullet drop at 400 yards from your 200 yard zero (21.5”). 3: Cosine value of 30 degrees (.134). The calculation is as follows: ((21.5)” – (41.75 * .134)) or (21.5 – 5.55) = 15.45”. You will dial your scope for 15.5” instead of 21.5”. This is quite different from the advanced rifleman method. The advanced rifleman method calculations are as follows: 21.5” * .866 (cosine) = 18.6” While it would be close enough for a clean kill, 400 yards at 30 degrees angle would be near the threshold for most rifle/load combinations. Any further than that or at steeper angles, the advanced rifleman method will shoot high every time. In this case it is about 3” high because you are compensating for 18.6” where only 15.5” are needed. It sounds complicated but with a drop chart that includes the baseline bullet drop and a list of cosine values and even just a little practice, it is accomplished easily and fairly quickly. Another thing you can do to speed things up is to print a drop chart that includes bullet drops on a level surface and in 5 degree increments. If you would like an excel spreadsheet that will create a drop chart that you can print with angle compensation automatically, PM me and I will email you one. All you have to do is enter your velocity, bullet weight, zero range, temperature, altitude, ballistic coefficient, scope height, wind speed and direction and you will get a drop chart to print. Now the easy application of angle compensation: 1 option: PM me for a free calculator in excel that will print you a couple of different range cards (PLEASE include your email address as I cannot send you one without it. Also, this offer is only for established members. Please dont flood this site with new memberships just so you can PM me unless you wish to contribute to this forum.) There are a couple of samples below: Another sample: 2: Print your own drop charts using your favorite ballistic calculator which will need to include a baseline bullet drop as well as a corrected path for your zero along with a list of cosine values. This baseline and path will be referred to as something else for other software. Now if you would like to know the why, scroll down. If all you want to know is the how to, then stop reading. ************************************************************************ Now the why: Most shooters understand the principal of the right angle triangle and it’s hypotenuse. For example if you have a triangle with a 6” line at a 60 degree angle, the line at 90 degrees is half the length which is 3”. This can be found by taking 6” * the cosine value of 60 degrees which is 0.5. (6” * 0.5) = 3.0”. Basically, 600 yards line of sight at 60 degrees, is 300 yards on a level plane. Gravity affects objects straight down. A bullet’s ‘baseline’ drop when fired at an angle other than 0 degrees is based on gravity’s effects 90 degrees straight down. The reason that we don’t correct using our drop chart is because of the fact that we have introduced other angles to compensate for the baseline bullet drop. The rifle barrel has to be aimed up above the target to get the bullet to come up past the line of sight to be able to drop into the target due to gravity. The closer you launch a bullet to 90 degrees up, the longer the bullet follows the line of departure. When fired at 90 degrees up, it will follow the line of departure until it stops due to velocity loss which is due to air density and gravity’s influence. When shooting up or down a hill, the principal of gravity affecting the bullet’s path is always straight down. When you launch a bullet while aiming at 60 degrees up a hill, the rifle barrel is NOT 60 degrees. This is why bullets will ALWAYS strike high when using the rifleman method. You must use to baseline bullet drop as a reference because this drop is based on gravity affecting the perfect horizontal line of the bullet. This reference does NOT include to angle of the bore in relation to the target. You always take the baseline drop and multiply it by the cosine value before you incorporate the bullet drop from zero. We can use basic math to validate this theory. Let’s use the worst case scenario. A 90 degree uphill shot at 1000 yards using the rifleman method. 1000 * 0 = 0 yards where the rifle is zeroed at 1000 yards. If you aim for zero yards by compensation, the bullet will never even be close to the target. To get a rifle zeroed at 0 yards the angle of the barrel would have to be so steep to get the bullet to cross the line of sight at zero yards that the bullet would be so high over the target it isn’t even funny. You can argue and use the reverse cosine (1) which is what we should be using, where 0 is at 0 degrees and .5 is at 60 degrees and 1 is at 90 degrees, 1000 yards * 1 = 1000 yards. If you aim for 1000 yards which is where your rifle is zeroed, your bullet will be ‘high’ because while the scope is lined up with the target, the barrel is…….you guessed it, angled away from the target. Mathematically, it would be ‘high’ by the same amount as it would be low at 1000 yards at 0 degrees when fired level. In other words, the baseline bullet drop and the amount you would be high would be equal. Using the average baseline drop at 1000 yards it would be 375” high Now if you apply the correct calculation of ((bullet drop at target * cosine of angle) – bullet drop at zero), the math works out perfectly. In this case, our rifle is zeroed at 1000 yards so you take (0” – 375” * 1.0 cosine = -375”). Now you see that if you come down 375”, your bullet will depart at 90 degrees straight up and hit the target. No matter the angle between 0 and 90 degrees, point blank to as far as your bullets stay stable and have forward motion, the calculation of (bullet drop at target – baseline bullet drop at that range * cosine value = true inches of drop every time. Below is a picture that illustrates the ‘why’. I hope that helps!! M PS: Now the debate can continue!

The grass is always greener in the other side. Nothing wrong with the green on the 308 side of the fence.