DubTee

soazarcher is spot on in my opinion. Biker, just google "spike deer genetics" and a whole host of articles will come up. I respect the opinion of the guy from Texas, that is the one place I consistently hear that they still want spikes shot. Not sure I agree with that, as Dr. Kroll's Texas study disproved that in a wild herd. What you must take into consideration about Texas is that there are many high fence places where you can somewhat control genetics, I can see a point of shooting spikes under high fence conditions considering all the variables one can control in that kind of operation. BTW, I too would love to see all these old spikes being shot, with proper documentation on how old the deer was, not sure I believe most of those tales. Using ultra's utah example, like I said before I'm sure deer would be mistakingly killed if restrictions are put in place, but how many legal bucks would survive because honest hunters couldn't figure out if they were legal or not until is was too late? Poachers poach, honest hunters will hunt according to the law, I'd like to believe there are many time more honest hunters than poachers out there. Like anything, a couple of illegal deer are killed and everyone thinks the world is on fire and that is happening everywhere.....not likely. PA has undoubtedly rebounded from terrible trophy hunting several years ago under an AR plan, so it is proven to work, just not everyone cares to shoot a trophy and I respect that. NM has been doing AR for bull elk for firearms hunting in just about all their top units for as long as I have been going over there (which hasn't been that long), and it seems to help as there are many trophy quality bulls there. Out of all the things wildlife managers can control, genetics is probably last on the list, so why waste time and resources. I hunt a buddies place in WI for archery deer during the rut every year. We have 1000 acres private, but the deer are free ranging. We implemented a QDM program there about 8 years ago, the only thing we changed was to not shoot young bucks, 3.5+ year old bucks only, with most of us only caring to shoot a 4.5 year old or older deer. The trophy quality on that farm has grown by leaps and bounds over the past several years. We see many more bucks, much more intense rutting action, and encounter many more "shooters" than ever before. Over the past 3 years we have harvested more 150+ inch deer than the last 20 years combined on that property. Now managing public land in AZ is a heck of a lot different, but things like AR could be a way to do it if you want the age structure of bucks to increase in certain areas.

I did not read the research articles about culling or QDM, but as a transplanted midwesterner I am very familiar with both of those subjects. As soazarcher eluded to, spikes are yearlings 99% of the time. It has been proven that they can grow into very nice bucks given time. Most of what I have read is that spike bucks are 1.5 years old and many were born a bit later (by does who were bred later), or frequency of spikes increases as feed quality decreases, maybe due to tough weather conditions, etc. As many of the culling articles will tell you, it is very hard to cull inferior genes out of a free ranging herd. Antler restrictions are put in place to increase the average age of harvested animals, thus protecting a majority of the younger ones. Generally there are good genetics around, many larger antlered animals get to breed, the "inferior" small antlered animals are almost selectively bred out anyway. What is pretty much a must for trophy animals is age, antler restrictions can help protect younger bucks. All the talk about there being a bunch of dead deer around under AR because hunters will shoot first and ask questions later is bologna in my opinion. Sure, a few would be mistakingly shot, but poaching is poaching. I have also heard that there would be no big bucks left if AR is implemented because you can't shoot the younger/smaller ones any more. Horsecrap, most hunters cannot find a buck, let alone a mature one, age will protect the bigger ones just like it always has. I'm not sure on 308nut's washington example. I have been directly involved in 12 or so elk hunts in AZ and NM over the past 3 years, filtered through thousands of trail cam pics of elk, and very rarely do I find a 1.5 year old bull that isn't a spike. If a young bull does fork, it is usually just one side, making him legal for the spike hunt. I have not seen a bunch of inferior bulls in the areas we hunt, even though there are tons of spikes around. If washington went from branch antlered to spike only, then there were a bunch of mature bulls around years later due to the fact that you could not kill them. Reasonable antler restrictions work in producing more older aged animals (usually sporting trophy head gear) because it protects animals when they are most vulnerable (young). Put some age on them, and they'll protect themselves. Any consistently successful trophy hunter (who does the actual hunting) will tell you that mature animals are different, they move on different paths, at different times. That is why most mature animals are killed during breeding seasons (really the only time a mature buck/bull is truly vulnerable). Like Bill Q. said, I'm not sure AR would work throughout AZ like it has in other states. However, I do think AR could be used in alternative management areas like the Kaibab or possibly in other specific units for muleys, coues, or elk for that matter. Biker, here is an article with research done by one of the most respected deer experts in the field regarding spikes, hope this helps. http://www.petersenshunting.com/content/shooting-spike-bucks/1

The more I see videos on these things and hear about how tough they are to hunt, the more I want to do it. Seems like it would be much more of a thrill killing one of these than an Oryx on the one of the ranges.

I saw a pic of that bull in the latest huntin fool under one of the Chappell ads, what an awesome bull, absolutely love those dark horns. Not sure, but that has to be a 1 or 27 bull, not only does it look like it vegetation wise but that is the only place in AZ I've seen dark horn bulls like that. Awesome bull, too bad is was too dark to get the shot on film.

Kenny, I agree with your philosophy 100%, I am interested in the strip, just not this year. I will be hunting a different state during that hunt in 2011. I figure the 33 late hunt is worth the 7 points, and it perfectly fits my schedule hunting the final 6 days of the year. If I don't draw 33 late this year, then I might consider waiting for the strip as I'm not sure 33 late is worth 8 points and at 8 points I would start to see the light at the end of the strip tunnel.

In your case, just put the only hunt number in the first choice and you are done. I think the putting the same hunt number for first and second choice really only matters in certain circumstances such as putting in for hunts that traditionally are not filled in the 1-2 pass and/or have leftovers and you also want to put in for a 3rd or more hunt choice. For instance, let's say I have a couple of bonus points going into the draw (pretty much average). I really want to hunt the early November 36B hunt, I also think that heck might freeze over and the early Nov. 36B hunt might be filled in the 1-2 pass and I want to protect myself because ultimately I just want to hunt, so I will fill in some 3rd, 4th, and 5th choices as well. In this case, I will put early Nov. 36B as my first and second choice, then some other hunts as 3rd, 4th and 5th. If I were to put a second choice such as late Nov. 36B, I might draw that tag in the 20% pass, even though there are leftovers for my first choice. As Doug explained earlier, I did not have get my first choice in the 20% pass, so they looked at my second choice and there were tags available in the 20% pass, so I got one. People question how this can happen because they look after the draw and there are 250 leftover tags for early Nov. 36B and ask how did they not draw the hunt as they had it put down as first choice. If a person only wants one hunt and nothing else, just put that hunt number for your first choice and you are done. If you really want a hunt but a more popular tag would be good problem to have, then take a flyer at a hard draw hunt as your first choice then put the hunt you would really like as your second choice. Unless you absolutely need to be guaranteed a hunt, I'm not sure why anyone would put one of these early boarder unit coues hunts that traditionally have quite a few leftovers as one of their hunt choices right now. I would to take some flyers at late hunts in these units or something else hard to draw, then just apply for one of the leftovers and build some points.

Tines, you are correct, putting more choices after the same first two kind of defeats the purpose. Here is an example of what I will do this fall for deer. I have 7 bonus points, I know various units for coues but I love unit 33 and I want a late december coues tag for there. 7 points may put me in the 20% pass for late 33, it may not. I will put 33 late as my only hunt choice, if I get it in the 20% pass great, if not I will have a chance in the 1-2 pass. If I put any other coues hunt as my second choice I may draw it and I'm not sure I want any other coues tag for 7 points. If I don't draw, then I may need to consider waiting on the strip

If anyone is interested in finding out the age of the deer you kill, you can pull one of their lower incisors and send it in to a company in Texas that ages deer by inspecting the rings inside the tooth. I think it is something like 99.99% accurate, much more so than the lower jaw tooth wear method. We always do this with the bucks we shoot in the midwest, interesting to judge their age on the hoof then get the real age a few months later. I'd like to see how old some of these big coues bucks are.

Great story and write up, that is one awesome bull!

I shoot an X-Force, 330 fps, and I would highly recommend shuttle t's, toughest broadhead on the market imo, and they fly like darts.

I have a Sony tv and stand that I want to get rid of. It is in perfect working condition, 42 inch flat screen projection television. I live in Fountain Hills, asking $250 or best offer. PM or call 480-247-8489.

I have paid particular attention to the moon phases and observed deer movement (mostly in the midwest) over the past 10 years or so, about the time they started coming out with those moon dial calendars that are very popular in the midwest. It got me curious, so I decided to get my hands on everything I could to read about the subject. My experiences and research indicates (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread) that animals have the urge to feed when the moon is directly overhead or underfoot, the key is coinciding these times with the animals natural feeding/movement times to enhance animal sightings in my opinion. Animals move toward feeding areas when the moon is rising, move back to bedding when the moon is falling. The best moon phase to hunt in my opinion is a first quarter moon, the second best is a last quarter moon (these are when there is half a moon). These moon phases coincide the rising and overhead time of a first quarter with an animals urge to move towards feeding in the evening, the last quarter falls in the morning, coinciding with animals natural urge to go back to bedding areas later in the morning. Full moons are overhead at midnight, that is why animals wait until dark to move (the moon begins rising late) and feed later. IT IS NOT BECAUSE FULL MOONS PROVIDE MORE LIGHT FOR THE DEER TO SEE, PREDATORS CAN SEE JUST AS WELL DURING FULL MOONS. Deer can see just fine in the dark, they do not have eyes like ours. If you are ever in the midwest and go shining, you would see just as many deer at midnight during a dark moon than you would during a full moon, with completely different lighting. I would advise anyone who is curious to learn the different phases of the moon and what times they are rising, overhead, and falling (these times are always constant), then when you see particular times of great animal movement or terrible animal movement (all things being equal), correlate the moon phase into the equation, I bet you will notice some things. I do have some other advice, hunt whenever you can, no matter what moon hunting is better than sitting around on the couch. Also, male animal movement during rutting periods is not based on looking for food so I really don't concern myself too much with moon phases during peak rut knowing that a rutting buck or bull can come by at any time. However, cows/does are still doing their thing and during this time the males are close by, so I do like when my schedule allows me to hunt during my favorite moon phases. I am headed to WI on the 8th of November to bowhunt whitetails, that week there will be a first quarter moon, I would bet my right cajone that I will see a great amount of deer movement that week as long as the weather is decent. I read that something like roughly 67% of record book whitetails were killed on a first or last quarter moon, if that is the case, then a person is almost twice as likely to score a big buck on those phases vs. a full or dark. In the case of joeybari's question, I would always hunt the last week of the late dec coues tag because of the rut being better, this year happens to be a last quarter during that week, even more bueno. Of course, this is all my opinion.

nice video, great bull, love my range snap!

Just got back yesterday from an archery hunt in NM, bulls were rocking pretty good on the 1st and 2nd, then it seemed to warm up, and the elk talk began to slow down. The AZ archery season and the second NM archery season will be great in my opinion, I would expect them to be really ripping by the 16th/17th. All the elk seemed very healthy and the horns seemed very large! Good luck to all.

I saw the show too, very nice buck, good job JRH.

No doubt it is tougher to find them off the top during that early hunt, but they are there. Had a buddy pass a 170 class buck all they way down in the flats during that early hunt last year. I agree though, definitely more deer on the W side early. Good luck.

By overgrown and thick, I'm assuming you mean the burn. Big bucks love overgrown and thick, little tougher to see in there, but they are there. Don't overlook off the plateau, even on the early hunt there is always a couple of good ones on the side already.

I do not own a Sako, but I was really interested in buying one until I found out they don't make lefties, but I did a ton of research on them so here is my two cents. The A7 is basically a Tikka with the Sako name on it, there is not much difference other than a little more metal, same cheapo stock, lots of plastic. I have read great reviews on the 85, definite increase in niceness compared to the A7, but heck, they'd probably shoot the same, all depends on your preference. Better yet if you can find a 75 that is like new, that would be the one to snatch up, the Sako nuts love that gun so they are hard to come by, but I heard that action is like butta.

It doesn't seem like I get a whole lot of time to look at the points and estimate how long they are and come up with a score when I find a shooter, maybe one of these days I'll find a shooter bedded so I can do that. My advice is to look for length, length in his main beams and his points (where obviously the more points the better), that is where you'll make up a lot when it comes to score. Spread and mass do not make big differences in score when it all boils down to it. BTW, in reference to the above post, even on a 3x3 you get 4 mass measurements per side, you just take the last one (H4) between the G3 and the end of the main beam. You hit the nail on the head in your original post, look for a mature buck, and to do that you have to look at their bodies to determine age on the hoof. Any mature buck is a trophy, remember it is a buck's age that makes him elusive, not his horns. Please allow me to disagree....first one question. Why you dont get a lot of time to estimate a buck a buck and gues a score?? You do not glass or how do you hunt? why? And second I disagree on the statement "Spread and mass do not make a big difference" believe me...they do!! If a buck has eye guards of 3 inches or more, second point of 7 inches or more, 3rd point 5 inches or more, main beams of 15 inches or more and mass of 14 inches or more and spread of 14 or more you will have at least a 100 inch buck. Make sure you read the topic on this forum " The 2009 100 inch post" on the Hunting AZ forum; there you will see lots of pictures and their scores that way you can have an idea what a 100 inch buck look like. Ernesto C All I was trying to say is that bucks are not always just sitting in the open, standing still so you can take your time and estimate every tine and how long it is. Yes, I glass, and most of the time a buck is moving, usually through vegetation, late hunts they are chasing does etc., judging them in these situations seems to be what I encounter the most, all the while thinking where are they going, why are they going there, where would my shot be, etc. With regard to mass and spread, yes every inch counts but think about it. If an avg mature coues has a spread of 13 inches, I would say a wide one would would have a spread of 16 inches, that is only 3 inches more to the score. Mass is more important than spread, but still not as important as length. If you added and inch, inch, 3/4, and 1/2 to the four mass measurements (which would turn an avg massed buck into a good massed buck) we are talking about an extra 7 inches on the score, nice to have, but not as important as an extra 1 1/2 inches on each point (which would turn an avg length buck into a better than avg length buck) that would amount to 12 inches extra on a 3x3. Not to mention that determining better than avg length is much easier in my opinion than determining better than avg mass on the hoof, in conditions where the buck is moving around a bit or bedded in cover. Disagree if you want, but points and their length are much more important than spread and mass in my opinion when score is the only thing that matters to the person.

It doesn't seem like I get a whole lot of time to look at the points and estimate how long they are and come up with a score when I find a shooter, maybe one of these days I'll find a shooter bedded so I can do that. My advice is to look for length, length in his main beams and his points (where obviously the more points the better), that is where you'll make up a lot when it comes to score. Spread and mass do not make big differences in score when it all boils down to it. BTW, in reference to the above post, even on a 3x3 you get 4 mass measurements per side, you just take the last one (H4) between the G3 and the end of the main beam. You hit the nail on the head in your original post, look for a mature buck, and to do that you have to look at their bodies to determine age on the hoof. Any mature buck is a trophy, remember it is a buck's age that makes him elusive, not his horns.

So, is it the same as the last 5 years, meaning you can go anywhere at your own risk, or is the red zone closed to all traffic no matter what? I have a honey hole near or in that red area and just want to know if I'm allowed to go in there.

Does anyone know if that area that they shut off down there is actually shut off completely, or an enter at your own risk kind of deal. Thinking about a leftover tag, but wanted to clarify this first.

Thanks guys, but I ended up shipping my frame to a guy in Oregon, he did a great job.

I am trying to get the name and number of a good smith to do a trigger job on a TC Prohunter for me. Gamehauler said he had a good guy in Payson, but I PM'd Game the other day about this and I have not heard back from him yet. I am thinking about running up there on Saturday to maybe drop the rifle off and check out the new bow shop up there. If any of you Paysonites know who Game's guy is, I would love the info. Thanks.

Don't forget Dog's son and partner in fighting crime Leland!