wetmule

Desert Bull, The ADA started out as the AZ Mule Deer Assoc. We only recently changed our name to try to encourage participation and increase our membership voices within the hunting community. Carp hunters, Coues hunters - we are all deer hunters that love deer- both coues and mule deer, and they all need our help. Even though we have spent alot of money on Coues Deer projects throughout the state, when this particular project started our organization was the Arizona Mule Deer Assoc. The strip is an area that had a need for some help in this area and we wanted to help so that is what we did. Second, and this is important, very few if any lion hunters hunt the strip, it's too tough and too far etc. Some lion hunters want to wait till they see a 15 minute old track in fresh snow before they get out of their heated cab to dump the dogs out as was said in an earlier post. We had a lion hunter in Jim Bedlion that likes and knows the Strip and more importantly was willing to go there and do some tough work. There may well be a lion problem in other parts of the state like tonto, Catalinas etc. but these areas get hunted by numerous houndsmen on a frequent basis, unlike the strip. Your point # 3. is a good one and a good idea, why don't you come to a board meeting and present it to the board sometime.

CHD, Manamal, 270 etc. Sometimes I think the only people that don't know that predators are a huge problem are some of the higher ups in the G & F. Even with the Three Bar study I think there are G & F personnell that are'nt buying it, they have a hard time believing what the biologists are telling them. It's a very frustrating situation for those of us that want to see our herds grow and I'm sure it's frustrating for the biologists whose efforts and hard work falls on deaf ears within the Dept. Regarding the AZ Strip : We at the AZ Deer Association have paid for aerial gunning of coyotes several times in recent years trying to knock back the coyotes at the most critical times before the fawns drop etc. We have also hired one of the best lion hunters in the state (Jim Bedlion) and have paid him to hunt cats the last five years on the AZ Strip. The problem with the Strip is not too many of the cat hunters wants to go that far to hunt cats, it's way easier for them to hunt the Kaibab or the rim or the desert mountains etc. That and the fact that hunting cats is a very difficult undertaking on the Strip. According to Jim those cats travel incredible distances from one end of the unit to the other and back again. Jim has spent two to three weeks every winter for the past five years for us (ADA) hunting cats up there. He does this on foot and has tracked those cats to heck and back, he is one tough hombre. He has done this for us for basically his expenses. If any of you know Jim please thank him, he has done an incredible job for us and has taken over twenty cats in the last five years. I'm not exactly sure of the numbers I'd have to check my records but i think the first year he took I think 7 lions, then 5 or 6, then 4 or 5, then I think 4, and this last year I think he took 3 lions up there. He gave us a report several months ago at one of our board meetings and said he thinks the cats up on the Strip at least for now are pretty well in check. Good news for us and the deer up there. I would second CHD's reccomendation of joining the ADA's efforts by joining, and if at all possible becoming active and involved. There are lots of people that post on here that could and would definitely make a difference and by the way we need your help. Later

Chase, I would second or third Pat Newman, although there are lots or good coues taxis. around. You can see a couple of his mounts on azdeer.org (AZ Deer Association Website) Congrats on a great deer.

I can answer that one if you kill a buck with 3-4 main beams per side, get on your knees and thank the lord and then get the picture to amanda asap so we can see it on this site. Seriously, you only get 4 measurements per side.

Nice ride Amanda, it'll look good with some good ol" AZ pinstriping on it (catclaw, creosote, mesquite etc.) My truck has one of the finest AZ pinstriping jobs ever done. I like the manual trans. for off road as well. AZ 4 LIFE you have exotic dancer neighbors ? Where exactly do you live?

If you can get over the fact that you are carrying one more object and get used to it you will be amazed at how many more deer you will see steadying your binos on the stick. I have friends that have used them religiously for twenty plus years hunting coues and they all have numerous monster bucks on their walls. They are especially good when you are out covering the country puttin the miles on or if you are hunting tight,thicker country. Obviously if you are perched on top of a mountain or edge of a canyon for hours at a time the staff will just be laying there. But the times in between long glassing stints they are invaluable. They are also excellent for steadying a rifle. Just my two cents

Just saw on the news tonight (Ch. 12) where a 11 or 12 year old kid was killed by his 15 year old brother while hunting deer on the SanCarlos. Did'nt catch the whole story but apparantly the brother heard something in the brush and fired, it was his brother. Terribly sad and tragic story for what seemed like a really great family. Be safe out there and if you've got youngens get em to a hunter safety class asap. Thoughts and prayers to the family.

Griz, The deer , elk, pronghorn, bighorns, moose got along fine with the bears, as do I. My problem is with the wolves that are capable of decimating entire populations of big game ( which is what is going on right now in Wyo., Mont., & Idaho ) There is a reason why there use to be a bounty on them. They are going to kill all the wildlife in those parts, when they are done with that they will destroy the ranchers herds. My beef is with the feds and the Sierra Clubbers that forced this wolf crap down our throats and told us to swallow, and by the way made us pay for it. It's going to be wolves or other big game species before too long, not both. When big game species plummett further and wolf numbers grow larger, then the govt. will say yea maybe we have a problem that we need to deal with.

Josh, I spent some time chasing cats with your dad back in the 80's. My name is Kevin Harris. Had an incredible time with your dad for a couple weeks and watching his dogs work on dry ground was beyond compare, especially watching "Warrior" work. That was one savage dog, probably one of the best to ever run around in AZ. I had a great time with your dad his knowledge of those cats and their habits is pretty amazing. I would have loved to run around with your dad and Otis Baker back in the day. Tell him Hello for me.

Josh, Just curious is that dark colored dog on the left "Warrior" ? Great pic, thanks for posting

Fortunately, the transplanted wolves have'nt taken hold here in AZ like they have in WYO. It is an incredible success story for that species up there, but to the detriment of all other species. Go to Wyo or Mont. and talk to the locals - pretty soon there won't be anything in yellowstone and that part of the country cept bison and wolves. It is going to happen, heck it's happening right now. Can't imagine yellowstone and NW Wyo.without elk, moose, sheep, deer, antelope etc. but that's the way it's headed. It's an incredible place to take a family vacation but I won't go just to see buffalo, geysers and big dogs. Yes we pay OUR tax dollars to reimburse ranchers for the destruction of their herds by the feds pet projects. I've talked to ranchers, why don't you ask them about getting reimbursed for wolf predation and all the paperwork and BS they have to go through. I'm not all that opposed to Grizz back in AZ, I just don't think they would do well, they need lots and lots of space, more than we have here. As far as Condors go, I'm fine with them too. I just don't want to see our rights as sportsmen and women disappear because of some stinkin bird that never lived here in AZ anyway. I was invited and participarted in a G & F Condor study focus group last year. How about the possibility of never hunting the Kaibab or 12-B or the strip or even 9 and unit 10 again because we would be interfering with the natural behavior of the Condors and they would take precedent. How about switching to un-leaded bullets in those areas. How about after you shoot a coyote you take your shovel and bury it six feet down so the Condors can't get to it and possibly ingest the lead. These are just a few of the things that were proposed at this meeting. Yeah I'm all for locking up all our publics lands so we can have a few condors and a few spotted owls and black footed ferrets. Lock it all up, heck I don't care, the way things are going we will only see hunting as we know it for maybe another generation if we are lucky!

You people that want wolves, grizzlies, Condors, T-Rex's and Dodo's reintroduced to AZ are INSANE. They put about 60 wolves back in Jellystone in 96 ? Now there are probably close to 800 + running around. There are no more moose in Jellystone, there are no deer, they are destroying the bighorn sheep and antelope herds and have decimated the famous elk herd and probably cut it in half in a short amount of time. They are in Montana, Idaho, Wyo destroying cattle and everything else in there wake. The people up there hate them and the Govt. for putting them back there. The only people that like them are the Sierra Clubbers and Peta people, tree hugging SOB's. UNBELIEVABLE !

Although I hate to do it, I agree with 270. The 270 is a sweetheart of a cartridge.

Please enlighten us on just how Mr. Lewis is misunderstood and what a great guy he is? Don Lewis went on his own little annual hunting trip to Jellystone Park for nine consecutive years. According to reports he killed at least ( 9 ) elk, he admitted that he killed at least one elk every year in yellowstone from 1983 - 1991 and sometimes more than one per year. In 1991 alone (the year he was caught) he was found with video of him shooting at 13 Elk, of which at least ( 9 ) of them died. Had video of at least one elk walking around with several arrows sticking out of it's guts. He broke game laws in at least 4 States. Was found in Utah in the Paunsaugaunt with ( 8 ) dead bucks in 1991. That's just the stuff he got caught for. YEA ! I'd say he is one heck of a guy. I can only hope that someday I get to meet him. You said on a earlier thread that you don't know any poachers, don't or would'nt associate with them if you knew they poached. You my friend are a walking talking contradiction. Lark, this guy is one of the worst and most flagrant poachers that I have ever heard of. He got off so freaking easy it's not even funny. I would guess that if he or someone in this day and age pulled the crap he did and got caught they would never get out of jail.

Good one Allen, I just spit coke all over my keyboard! I think he ate them both while his buddy videotaped it.

Can't wait to hear how Don Lewis , Charles Manson & Jeffrey Dahmer were all framed, must be a vast right wing conspiracy.

Click on the word Poacher in the above post !

Well we can all take 270's word for it, as we all know by now as long as he believes it, it must be true. OR we can all find out for ourselves just what a wonderful guy Mr. Don Lewis is. poacher

Wow, I thought De-Nile was the longest river in the world, guess I was wrong. Lark you sure know alot about a guy who as you say you casually know and converse with on occasion. My guess is A. You are either the man in question here. B. A close relative. or C. A casual friend as you say. For your information this was'nt started by the so called pervert baby- raper you refer to. It was started by a friend of his who happened to be thumbing through some pictures the guy had, and quite by accident he recognized the buck in question. You can claim all you want that the God of carbon dating, the official last word on C-14 who's word above all others is to be believed. You can claim that the buck grew in spread and points and that the skull plate was smashed to pieces. You can claim the sky is green and the grass is blue, because that is what you are doing. I know the truth, CHD knows the truth as do countless others. The two bucks you speak of are ONE and the SAME.

CHD, I basically have to second your thoughts on your above post. There were a few of us back then that really, I mean really looked up to him and considered him almost a god. For me it was no different, I couldn't have possibly thought any higher of a human being and I still hold he and Paula in very high regards. Absolutely fantastick people period. For me my dad introduced me to hunting big muleys and Kirt took an already strong love for these deer to a new level that has never wavered. I love all deer and all deer hunting, yes even coues, but for me there is nothing like just sittin there watching a huge muley buck in his natural habitat. Like all our heros, they are human and have faults and make mistakes and deserve to be forgiven. So that is what I've done and it seems that you have too. It was a tough one to swallow though and I guess that's why we have both responded so adamantly to our friend, 270. Good luck on your hunts this fall, wish I had a permit in my pocket. Like Kirt always said, you can't shoot a big one if you shoot the smaller ones first. I hope you get a big one. Good Luck Wetmule

270, Like CHD, I too could write a book countering your argument, and I could counter it with substantiated evidence unlike your argument. Not only on the buck in question but with several others and no I'm not speaking of the desert sheep or the coues buck you spoke of earlier. Why would I or anyone take what you have to say as gospel. You think that C-14 can somehow enter a bucks antlers through osmosis? Like I said earlier the Carbon dating theory does'nt hold water and proves nothing either for or against when this buck was taken. Like I also said earlier your loyalty is admirable but your lacking the real facts as CHD pointed out earlier as to when the buck was stolen or disappeared from AZ and when the Remington ad appeared. I don't think you really want to hear the truth and I'm not really trying to change your mind I'm just saying you are wrong. There are plenty of people here in AZ, Utah & Colo. and probably other places that are still around and active in the hunting world that can confirm just exactly why you are wrong. You claim to have done years of exhaustive research, you evidently did'nt dig all that deep in your research. Whatever, I'm out

Lark, There's always seems to be a way to spin it. From what research I've done in the past about carbon dating there are also many scientists that say the time frame for accurate dating is from 500 - 50,000 years. The one thing I do know about C-14 is that it cannot get into an antler by the antler being exposed to the atmosphere. It is ingested and put into the animals system through the plants it eats, and can only get into living tissue. Since antler is dead bone for six months of the year, that deer antler only has about a half of a year to accumulate all the C-14 of normal body tissue and bone, and not a full year. I wonder if scientists that carbon date antlers figure this into their equations and if they date antlers different from normal bone material. If they did, the antlers I think would be twice as old as originally thought. What I am saying is there are lots of variables to consider and there's even lots of scientists that don't buy into the theory of carbon dating and it's accuracy at all. You are obviously a good friend and that is very commendable, we should all be so lucky to have someone in our corners and sticking up for us as valiantly as you. Your mind is made up and that is fine with me. My mind is made up as well, I can tell you that my mind was made up not by the buck in question but other facts and circumstances that I'm sure you are not aware of. It is old news and history for me, and I will leave it at that.

Heard all these excuses before many times, and they don't hold any water. I'm amazed at the carbon 14 one, that still baffles me. Carbon 14 dating is a process that dates old and aincient stuff. Carbon 14 is a radioactive atom that is present in all living things. When something dies it quits taking in carbon. That particular atom begins decaying when that particular plant or animal dies. It has a half life of close to 5800 years. The process of carbon dating is only accurate on items that are from 50 at the earliest to about 60,000 years old. Even after 50 years the carbon 14 in a bone or antler would show little or no decay. What would be the point of carbon dating a bone or antler that is only around 30 years old. Maybe 15 at the time it was apparantly carbon dated. It still wouldn't tell you anything even if the animal in question was taken during world war II. I wonder which point or antler tip was removed so the chemical analysis could take place. I'm not an expert but I do know you need some material to do the analysis on, maybe some scrapings or scratching off some bone would be enough I don't know. But I do know it would'nt matter and really would'nt tell you anything till it got real old.

Wow, that's unbelievable. Thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends. Manamal, that's a pretty scary story of yours, sounds like you were pretty lucky. I have to agree with AZ4Life, I think it's high time the feds step up and start enforcing our borders. Sounds like a huge wake up call for us all. Be safe out there and good huntin.

Lark, Sounds like a heck of a big bear you took back in the day. Too bad about your dealings with B & C regarding the ol' boy. Like I said I enjoy reading their books and lookin at the pics, but that's about it for me. Seems odd you have to pay them to get in their book in order to get your animal recognized. They also several years ago,lowered their minimum scores on many of North Americas big game animals, most likely for monetary gain. A 230 Non-typ muley is still a monster buck but it's not a 240, and a 190 typical is also a fantastic buck but not a 195. I think they did it to keep their business going, knowing they would have a huge influx of entries and recognized a financial windfall and took advantage of it. They also started their awards program with yet lower minimum scores recognizing the animal for the awards program but not the all time book. They charge money to get into all their programs, I wonder if their minimums will continue to go south. We hunt if and when we ever get drawn because we love to get out with friends and family enjoy the outdoors,the country, the wildlife, the challenge and to recharge our batteries. Anyways, good luck if you pulled any permits this fall and happy hunting. Wetmule