washingtondc

Are there two types of white-tailed deer in the Ft Davis Mountains? I have seen distinct groups with some looking like the larger Texas white-tailed deer and others looking like the Coues deer. I have also been to the Huachuca Mountains and Chiricahua Mountains where I have also photographed Coues deer. I have photographs of Carmen Mountain white-tailed deer in Chisos Mountains of Big Bend National Park. Their ears are smaller than Coues deer.

The Mike Fabritz link is no longer there. I would like to get a Klondyke Butte print if it is available. It was the painting with mountain backdrop with Course deer bounding. I am in the area until Wednesday.

I disagree with this map for Southern California label of desert mule deer. The deer in the Traverse Ranges north of Los Angeles are California mule deer. The Deer of the mountains and hills south of San Gabriel and Pomona Valleys are Southern mule deer (Baja mule deer). It is possible historically that the deer of Los Angeles area were a hybrid between California mule deer and Southern mule deer. Not desert mule deer. Also Southern part of Baja may be a different subspecies of mule deer. I also think inland San Bernardino, Riverside, and Imperial Counties have lowland desert areas where mule deer are absent until the Arizona border.

My latest - Coues deer in Madera Canyon (watercolor)

My latest watercolor of Coues Whitetail deer in Madera Canyon.

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There is something fascinating with white-tailed deer of the West and how they find their niche amongst several large herbivores. They are my favorite North American deer. I enjoyed viewing the Northwest white-tailed deer in Idaho Panhandle (in my profile) and Texas white-tailed deer in the Hill Country (decades ago). I look forward to see the Coues deer in AZ or NM. If I do New Mexico I would like to visit Fort Bayard (Coues deer) and Cloudcroft (Texas white-tailed deer) in the Sacramento Mountains. The other would be the Columbian white-tailed deer in Roseburg, OR. These past few years have been a first for me dabbing into photography while combining sketching and painting.

The top is my first drawing/watercolor of Coues white-tailed deer. Inspiration came from a photograph I have seen here on this forum, plus a famous Arizona White-tailed deer painting by Louis Agassiz Fuertes seen in Wild Animals of North America. The bottom is a larger scaled version using oil paints. The drawing is slightly different. I am wondering if acrylics is easier.

On the contrary, white-tailed deer do live in Guyana.

Wow, those are great shots! So...the deer is called Coues' Deer (is this the correct way?) I just wish more books on white-tailed deer would show side-by-side pictures and perhaps discuss these "observations". As a lay reader and non-biology reader, I confess that some of the readings are tough for me to understand. Sometimes I am not even sure if they get to the point either. The "thesis" I saw on separating northern and southern whitetailed deer was a research paper (pdf file) that seemed to be done by a student/researcher at a university in one of the Central American countries. The paper was both in English and Spanish. I don't seem to find it on the internet anymore...or at least I haven't been researching "hard enough" for it. The reading that discussed possibly several "subspecies" of white-tailed deer, last I remember, was really based on records and observations from past...early settlers maybe? You're right, such information really is not reliable as it is really hard to prove...and it was not written as factual...but more as a documentation. These observations were from lay people or perhaps people of science who lacked the methodologies of today. I am always on the lookout for the latest on white-tailed deer genetics...but as an animal artist...the photographs and pictures attract me more to the book. Some books that are good are "Whitetails in Action" and "Amazing Whitetails" by Mike Biggs...he has some great Texas white-tailed deer photographs. I have these two books at home too. The Whitehead Encyclopedia of Deer, I purchased in Seattle...it is a rare book that I paid good money for, but was well worth it. BTW, I have a compendium of red deer from Dr. Geist that separates this animal into 3 species (European Red Deer, Central Asian Red Deer, Asian and American Wapitis). Like I said earlier...I tend to side with Dr. Geist on his red deer and mule deer research. But, he doesn't write much on white-tailed deer. washingtondc

Unless whitetails were brought to that part of South America...it must be another species. White-tailed deer are in the northern part of South America.

Bill, Thank you for clarifying your experience in viewing pictures of white-tailed deer. I respect works from Dr. Geist and I do have the Whitehead's Encyclopedia of Deer. So you say that my belief does not hold water? Well, perhaps...I confess that I haven't seen a lot of pictures of these animals as you have...so yes, you have more experience than me. I have seen several books on white-tailed deer...and it would be great if there were books with photographs showing such regional variations of deer in the SE United States. However, I am interested in knowing what distinguishes these different deer, and have had a tough time finding good photos that show clear distinctions. The white-tailed deer is a cool animal, and I would love to see some of the photos that you have seen. I just wish a lot of this stuff would be made available. I did read Dr. Geist's work, and I think he is good with red deer and wapiti. I do like his stuff on mule deer too. The white-tailed deer, however, I don't know what other sources are available. But, I would love to see what you have seen. I know that some northern white-tailed deer have dark black on the their muzzle that goes near the eyes...but I don't know if this is distinctly a northern white-tailed deer thing. cheers, washingtondc

That's what I am guessing..... Of course the genetic analysis might change all that! Amanda Ever since reading Dr. Geist's publications...it would be interesting if white-tailed deer genetics and mtDNA were revisited, the question is feasibility. The constraint with Central and South American white-tailed deer is that many populations are already threatened or extinct...due to hunting practices and politics in those regions. It doesn't seem to be feasible...perhaps in Mexico this is a possibility(?). I think Costa Rica...it would be feasible...Venezuela...I am not sure either, there was some political instability...and I am not sure about Venezuela's relations with USA. White-tailed deer are very popular game animals...and I think that collectively, we, as Americans, may take them for granted. I think the white-tailed deer subspecies of the Northwestern and Southwestern United States are distinct. I think the Key deer is also distinct. What is ambiguous are the deer populations in the East Coast with the restocking histories. It seems like the Southern white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus virginianus) may be a mix of several deer from Texas, Midwest, and Great Lakes...I think the Kansas white-tailed deer may be mixed between Texas, Northern, and Southern deer. I am not even sure what clearly distinguishes Dakota, Northern, Kansas, or Virginian white-tailed deer other than possibly the size. I have looked at several Outdoor Life magazines...and these deer look the same to me! I draw these animals...and still can't tell what is distinctive. I know that Texas white-tailed deer are distinctive...Coue's deer with their large ears are distinctive. Northwest white-tailed deer are more yellowish...and distinctive in that way... I even read somewhere that there were once several subspecies in the Southwest, but due to hunting...the Texas, Coue's, and Carmen Mountains deer are the surviving subspecies...while the rest either were hunted to extinction or absorbed/assimilated into the Texas white-tailed deer? Heck, you'd think that with our country and most populous East Coast/Southern States...we should easily find out these things? There is ambiguity in the indigenous wolf population in East coast too! There are wolves in Algonquin Provincial Park...and now scientists don't think that there are really Eastern Timber wolves...and instead, Red Wolves? red wolf/gray wolf hybrids?, coyote/wolf/red wolf hybrids?...They can't make up their minds on this...

I just got this book too...and it came in the mail yesterday!

I am not a biology major...and yes, I am an outdoor nut...I draw a lot of these animals and like reading on them. I started by drawing a lot of these animals...then it turned into a hobby where I was actually reading about these animals and learning of their distinguishing features to try and draw them more precisely. I think the best books are "Deer of the World" by Dr. Valerius Geist, and "White-Tailed Deer: Ecology and Management" by Lowell K. Hall (Editor). I've been meaning to ask Dr. Geist if the scientific community is separating the North and South American white-tailed deer into two species...I have seen a thesis on this somewhere on the internet. There is something fascinating with the open plains/savanna adapted animals. I am also looking into information on the Spanish Red Deer that lives in the Chaparral Habitats of Southern Spain.

Coue's White-Tailed Deer have the largest range in Mexico and live along the Sierra Madre Occidental that extends from the Chiricahua Mountains of SE Arizona and SW New Mexico. The deer that straddle US/Mexico border belong to one of the three subspecies: Coue's White-Tailed Deer (O. v. couesi) Carmen's Mountain White-Tailed Deer (O. v. carminis) Texas White-Tailed Deer (O. v. texanus) These are open woodland/savanna adapted deer that have relatively large/complex antlers and long tails in proportion to body size. There is probably much genetic variation...as is typical of any white-tailed deer population. There are several subspecies identified in Latin America (Mexico, Central America, and South America)...but I think with the latest technology and practices in scientific classification...this subspecies list many need to be revisited. White-Tailed Deer in Eastern USA are largely mixed in the Southern States due to restocking of deer from as far west as Texas and Great Lakes regions)... The problem with the research needed is that many populations of white-tailed deer in Central and South America are shrinking, have disappeared, or vulnerable...due to uncontrolled hunting and human population pressures. As usual...politics... Incidentally, I have seen far too many white-tailed deer books that make the mistake of showing the habitat distribution of white-tailed deer to live in Arizona and Mexico as far west as the Colorado River that borders AZ/CA, or they show white-tailed deer living east of the Sierra Nevada Mountains bordering CA/NV. There is inconclusive evidence for this. Also, white-tailed deer are largely absent from the Columbia basin of Eastern Washington and Oregon. In the Great Plains, they live along river valley bottomlands and adjacent agricultural croplands where they inhabit corn patches. There might have been a continuous population that linked the Northwest White-Tailed Deer (NE WA, ID, MT, SE BC) with the Columbia White-Tailed Deer...but that would have been populations along the Columbia River from British Columbia to the Pacific Ocean. The white-tailed deer has largely disappeared from much of the Columbia River in Eastern Washington. Today white-tailed deer are found largely in Idaho, in Washington along the Idaho Border, and Oregon's Blue Mountains. I believe the Columbian white-tailed deer once lived in the Cowlitz River (WA) and Willamette River (OR) valleys...because there is much bottomland mixed forest. I believe that white-tailed deer may potentially extend their range into NE Utah... I have an Audobon handbook of Southwestern Wildlife, but it says white-tailed deer live in N Utah and W Nevada...because it was based on the big old map that is largely inaccurate and placed in way too many books and encyclopedia articles on white-tailed deer. The best book on White-Tailed Deer is White-Tailed Deer: Ecology and Management, by Lowell K. Hall (Editor), and Deer of the World: Their Evolution, Behaviour, and Ecology, by Valerius Geist These two books have the best information so far, on white-tailed deer

White-Tailed Deer are native to Mexico, Central and South America and live alongside brocket deer. Brocket deer tend to favor seasonal evergreen forest, cloud forest, and rain forest. White-Tailed deer prefer tropical seasonal deciduous and mixed forest as well as tropical savanna and wet savanna. The white-tailed deer of Central and South America are small, with very small antlers and live in Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, Surinam, and French Guiana...possibly to NE Brazil. The Venezuela deer have the largest antlers and possibly the longest tail length relative to body.

I think the white-tailed deer in Arizona all belong to the Coue's deer subspecies. Most deer that straddle the US/Mexico border are of the 3 subspecies (Coue's White-Tailed Deer, Carmen's Mountain White-Tailed Deer, and Texas White-Tailed Deer). These are hardy open savannah/woodland adapted animals with relatively large tails and fairly large/complex antlers (in proportion to body size). One thing to also be mindful, is that white-tailed deer are very adaptable animals and have tremendous genetic variation-even within subspecies. The Coue's deer, as I understand, has one of the widest ranges in Mexico, and lives in the Sierra Madre Occidental that continues from SE Arizona and SW New Mexico. Mexico does have other subspecies of white-tailed deer, but their range is further south of the US borders. I don't know if Arizona and New Mexico have a history of re-stocking deer populations as in the Eastern United States. I know with deer in the Midwest and Southern States, there has been plenty of re-stocking of deer-such that they are possibly hybrids of Northern white-tailed deer, Southern White-tailed deer, Texas White-tailed deer, and Kansas White-tailed deer. The best books I have found available on white-tailed deer subspecies so far, are excerpts in "Deer of the World" by Dr. Valerius Geist, and "White-Tailed Deer: Ecology and Management" by Lowell K. Halls (Editor). I don't know what is going on deer research these days...but I do question the breakdown of subspecies of white-tailed deer in Central and South America. That needs to be revisited, but this would have to be a collective effort on most of Mexico, Central American Countries, and the South American Countries with White-Tailed Deer. This is probably tough due to uncontrolled hunting...and how several deer communities have already dwindled. I have an Audobon handbook of Wildlife of America's Southwest-AZ, NM, UT, NV. It's habitat range for the white-tailed deer is slightly incorrect and based on some inconculsive evidence. I know that the Coue's deer live in SE Arizona and SW New Mexico...but as of date, white-tailed deer do not live in CA, UT, or NV. Many maps of white-tailed deer range show them straddling CA/Western NV border...which is not true. White-tailed deer are largely absent from much of the Columbia basin in Eastern Washington and Oregon. They might have lived along the banks of the Columbia River...but that population has been long gone. The Columbian white-tailed deer of SW Washington and W Oregon are isolated from the Northwest White-Tailed Deer of NE Washington and Oregon's Blue Mountains. Although, I do find it believable that white-tailed deer may someday extend their range into Yellowstone and NE Utah, just like they did in Eastern Colorado. Unfortunately, the map that shows white-tailed deer habitat at the California/Nevada Border and the California/Arizona Border is inaccurate and is in so many books on white-tailed deer. The best range maps are the detailed white-tailed deer density maps found in "White-Tailed Deer: Ecology and Management" by Lowell K. Halls (Editor).

Yes, there are small white-tailed deer in northern South America. Northern South America has BOTH brocket deer species and the white-tailed deer. They live in the countries of Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, Surinam, French Guiana, and perhaps part of NE Brazil. These deer are either similar in size to Coue's deer or smaller. However, I don't know of the deer east of Venezuela are known to often carry large antlers. Most antlers are small, very small. South American whitetails tend to also have shorter tails in proportion to body size. The deer that are more dimorphic with relatively large antlers and tails are the white-tailed deer of Venezuela to the Colombian borderlands (Odocoileus virginianus gymnotis and Odocoileus virginianus apurensis). These deer are open savannah subspecies similar in ecology to the Texas, Carmen's Mountain, and Coue's Whitetailed Deer. The Venezuelan deer have relatively large antlers with many tines, like the Coue's deer. They live in the Llanos wetlands and savannahs that they share with capybara, orinoco crocodiles, jabiru storks, roseated spoonbills, egrets, anacondas, boas, and piranhas...and several cattle. This area is cattle country too.