krp

I don't have a problem meeting with John and listening. But if this is a public trial of sfw and I'm then expected to address the members, that will take a much different effort on my part to prepare, than just going and making a public showing with my 10.00 solicitation can that I support ADA'a new direction. What is the purpose of this meeting now? John and I debating or moving past sfw? honest question. I will continue to pound the sfw issue until it is not relevant and then switch gears to the next step without further thought of sfw. I'd like to address the commission on the Utah tag sell issue and see where they stand on bringing it back. Can't if we are still unsure where the orgs stand on supporting sfw and they looking over the commissions back with the review board. So it's relevant for me to know how the meeting stands before I walk in and what role I'll be playing. Kent

I am breaking my own vow because of the direction that your post has taken Kent. 1) The SFW controls the commission?... nothing could be further from the truth. The Governor has appointed her choices... well before the review board came in. The SFW has no control of the tags that are given to the MDF. That call is by the commission and has been for years. I have no clue what relationship the MDF and Utah SFW have... but it does not involve anything in AZ. The license plate money is controlled by the 18 members of the AZSFWC board. They are representatives from the 18 member organization. 4 of which are on the AZSFW board and the rest from sportsmen's groups. You should really attempt to come to the ADA board meeting. Your conspiracy theories and statements are not even close to being on target. If you wish to do a service to those on this site, come to the meeting and lets have a civil discussion face to face. Regards BPJ... They control the commission review board, I didn't say the commission, they control the choice the governor has. SFW is the leader of the orgs, the control they have is addressing this issue with the commission, you and the other orgs put them there, by them not going to the new commission that Brewer built and advocating for these tags to be brought back to Az, they support by nonaction. Instead they worked on legislation to convert 350 tags into the same type of SFW/MDF system with 2072. This is fact not speculation. That you haven't spent an hour researching how MDF became the sponsoring conservation group of Western hunting and conservation expo through SFW doesn't mean I'm wrong... I believe I even put links up. SFW is the namesake of the controlling organization of the license money, that is control. So, you and I will debate for the entire hour on these issues and still not scratch the surface... I will bring a stack of evidence, more than I've brought up here... you will lecture me... I will rebut with evidence... The azsfw issue will be confusing for your members, believe me with evidence or you as their leader... nothing will be accomplished, no progress made... that's a good plan John... for sfw. If Amanda or the other ADA leaders want this for the meeting, If there is still a question that SFW needs to be gone and me spending the next weeks amassing the evidence in a structural timeline for your members, then I'll do it. My presentation will take the entire meeting, I won't put the effort in if I'm cutoff after a couple minutes. If the meeting is about moving past sfw and getting back on track on some important issues... I will come with my coffee can and you can lecture me in private, I will listen, shake your hand and not even comment. Kent

If I thought Ryan's guidelines would be the focus of the meeting, I'd show up in support of ADA, with a coffee can for 10.00 donations and my 10 spot the first in the bottom... if it's a damage control exercise and no direction, nope. Showmethemoney, good info. This Utah selling tag issue needs addressed and I imagine it won't be to hard to bring this to the commission and start a dialogue. But this showcases the problem with the improprieties of sfw. They are the leaders of the orgs, control the commission review board and the Governors choice, control the super PAC that transfers the orgs voice and by proxy all sportsmens voice thru them to the legislature. They control the license plate money and who that money goes for conservation programs, They have a self proclaimed working relationship with DP and SFW... They have not attempted to rectify a real issue that we suffered from Nappy's commission, Utah SFW selling our tags and then attempted to follow the same tag control here in Az. We can't move forward on these important issues until sfw is out of influence in the legislature and the commission. Kent

I've meant to say in a couple posts and just forgot.... I don't believe that ADA or the other orgs knew about the bill, I imagine a few members that are also high up in sfw did, but not the ones coming here to standup for ADA... I do believe it's hard for them to accept that they have invested a ton of money in azsfw and it's hard to not have hope that their investment can be saved. I have no real hard feelings over them being snookered, just trying to reduce the time frame where they will realize that they must change course and wash their hands of sfw and unfortunately their investment. Kent

Some of their tax records have been posted so it's not to much of a guess, though I have asked specifics and no answers are coming forth, if I was truly interested I guess we could pull the records of the orgs and add it up... I'm close on my math and trying to make you think for yourself... I've learned writing novel length posts with facts don't work as well as shorter posts with hints... so I've also learned from the past and made adjustments. Hint again.... bring back the Governor tags from being sold in Utah, make a big splash at a banquet or expo, bring in more attendance by showcasing Az's prestigious tags... attendance means venders, sponsors, big money... one funding plus... I've thrown a lot of bones with my steadfast position that azsfw must go and they won't go if the orgs continue to back them. SFW hasn't given up on the tag grab, you can't move forward until the threat of sfw is gone. Kent

There will never be enough funding, ever... but the orgs are now putting over 40 grand just in Platinum/silver/bronze dues, plus whatever they solicit their members to send in over that... what do you think the total azsfw collects from the orgs and their influence even over folks that read internet sites... 60 grand, 75, 100 thousand? Would azsfw be in existence if the orgs hadn't signed off and committed to support at the onset? There has been testimony in these threads that there was a concern over the sfw connection originally, but it was deemed slight and worth the chance... well the gambled failed. That was then, now is now... do you support azsfw on both agenda and funding? All that money went to put sfw into a powerful political base and frankly, I've asked what they have accomplished for sportsmen and been given wins that are mostly procedural wins for sfw and scant if any for the hunting community. Seems this path of throwing money at sfw isn't sound... more money is just wasteful. You have lost on the investment and lost on the support of the majority in the hunting community. You have to reverse course and cut your losses before that trust will come back. Quit saying you don't have enough money and that backing sfw was justified and it's sportsmen fault for not bankrolling 'your' vision.... Get another vision. I swear it's like listening to Obama cry for another stimulus that will never benefit anyone but the cronies. Kent

Look, I'm not against any of the separate orgs including ADA, just john has been here talking so they get the spotlight. Let's clean this cancer out then get down to business. There could be some positives and one of the first is getting our governor tags out of The SFW/MDF Utah expo and sold at the Az banquets and ADA is the logical choice. I'm not going to go out of my way to support that unless sfw is completely out of the picture... And I'm one of the majority. Kent

The bill issue was dead immediately, YVRGC abd AES pulled their support for AZSFW... that's what this is about, continuing support of sfw. The review board is BS the way it stands, not one person will debate me on the issue, The antis or sfw, any agenda from either is an enemy of az hunters. The only issue now is, are the orgs still going to fund azsfw, or cut ties. If anyone is attempting to blame sportsmen asking tough questions and putting up evidence of impropriety, for the noncommunication of the orgs, that's another BS, same as the continued response that if sportsmen would have just supported them this wouldn't have happened. If you're not getting the support you want, reevaluate your message. Sportsmen are not to blame for one iota of this debacle,. Clean it up and get rid of sfw... Kent

AZSFW claims 6000 members, are these individual members or the aggregate of the member organizations... so if you are a member of ADA you are therefore a counted member of AZSFW? Best to know who claims you as one of them... Kent

Meaning no insult to anyone but... I have no desire to get into the orgs political/funding business, unless they get into mine or attempt to represent me in a fashion that I 'expressly' disagree with, I can deal with minimal disagreement or neutral. I work on catchment and jr hunt camps that are independent and understand the issues. I spend a some hundreds of bucks a year in supplies, transport, whatever... plus many days in the field making sure jr hunters have a positive experience at the start of their hunting life. Some is at the camps but more is just word of mouth connecting me to originally strangers to help their child, all have become friends... I spend more time and money than I can really afford but it must be done. I also sometimes do little donation things to help, cook for a gettogether or such, whatever money I raise is what I have to spend... that's reality. I have no time or funds left for a group... an org for some is the only way help... ok ... just work within your funds and control your leadership... I'm not a part of you, or to blame for you short falls. This isn't Wall street or GM where if you are failing financially you get bailed out by a public stimulus. Kent

Money? well the orgs and business sponsors 'give' AZSFW 44,000 in dues plus whatever else they give and encourage their membership to join or donate. That's money SFW uses to lobby with. I'm sure the orgs bring to sfw over 50,000, closer to 75,000... just keep it and utilize it yourself. The organizations created this problem, they took a huge gamble on the sfw name, there's been testimony they weight that risk... the public has remained leery and for good reason, we've experienced the reason. Quit the 'you victims deserved to be victimized because they wouldn't give it up easy' spiel... Some of us aren't victims, just reactionaries with a purpose. The orgs must clean house before asking us to trust and bail them out. Kent

Thank you for the response John, good info. I did figure it was that they may get an extra bit at a bigger venue, but the prestige and attendance is just as valuable, even more so and the same people that go to Salt lake to buy that tag will come here. Seems they collect a 10% fee off all the Utah tags as stated in one of their articles... glad to hear they can't keep any Az money, 10% would be an easy chunk. http://www.sfw.net/2011/07/15/283k-donated/ Salt Lake City, Utah – Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) and the Mule Deer Foundation presented a check for $283,500 to the Utah Division of State Parks and Recreation for wildlife habitat improvement and management work on Antelope Island State Park which is located in the Great Salt Lake. The funds were raised from the auction of a Mule Deer tag and a California Bighorn Sheep tag to be hunted on the Island this fall. The tags were auctioned last February at the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo (WHCE) held in Salt Lake City. The Mule Deer Tag sold for $265,000 and the Sheep tag sold for $50,000. The WHCE retains 10% of the sale price. Kent

Javihammer, I agree.... one thing you brought up I want to add something to, may not mean anything but it's nagged at me when I saw it. During my research to post the most correct info on these subjects, I've looked at many things that may or may not be an issue... I've looked at the Utah SFW on my own and been given some info also, if nothing else it was interesting and puts into prospective the timeline between Utah and Az tag grabs. Anyway, seems SFW promoted the Mule deer foundation into the role of Co sponsor of the Western hunting and conservation expo, in Salt Lake. Possibly this is the expo that the AZSFW was trying to emulate and copy. Check the link. http://www.huntexpo.com/exhibit.php Here's what nags at me and it may be fine and there may be a good reason... An Az mule deer governor tag is auction at the expo in salt lake by MDF and SFW, along with a ton of other tags, some from other states. The better the tags they can offer the better their expo and the clientele they attract, the more money they can bring in... I imagine they must send the money back here, excluding the 10% they charge on tag sales? Why isn't this tag auctioned off at one of our banquets ADA, ADBSS ect or the AZG&F expo, bringing in the money and more importantly the prestige to our orgs? There is a history of SFW and an Az tag... times that by 350 if they have their way. This is not over or can be ignored. Kent

Plausible solutions, though I can't see the sfw moniker survive in any form... they tried to USO and Obama'ize us, with a tag takeover and forced multimillion public stimulus... that's unforgivable after the trust shown. I wish the orgs luck, there is no easy fix and some hits will be taken in the near future. Kent

And this is it... This is the rift... The orgs are 'Private' repeat 'Private' special interest groups... that means in agenda and funding. The orgs cannot accept that the general public does not flock to their mission statement with an open wallet, it's plain to them that the folks are uncaring, lazy, blind or stupid. They can't accept the possibility many in the public have rejected the course and leadership they promote by 'not' funding them. If the pubic won't willingly support them to the point they may stall, their vision not progress... they must be forced for their own good to support. The orgs are too important to fail, they will legislate a public resource bailout repeat 'Public'... same as a stimulus... The orgs need to accept that the public rejected AZSFW, same as if it would have been AZUSO, as our voice politically, as they are both a threat to our tags... Kent

I appreciate your effort and that of YVGRC and AES... the reality is this is an private organization/special interest problem. That means the orgs have to take care of it, that means the leaders of the orgs have to disagree with SFW as a whole, that means the membership of the orgs have to disagree with SFW and force acceptance of their view or remove the leadership of their 'private' org... to then have a united front to oust SFW from the Az political and conservation voice. These threads are being monitored, BPL is looking 20 times a day... no comments are coming from the leaderships except the two that have unaffiliated, those two will be left out to dry... No one will answer the simplest questions and their memberships aren't pressing them. We are waiting to see if the orgs will clean their house, if not, I and others will come after all of you hard, we are the majority, we will not be screwed again. If you think we hate USO for what they did, that will look like sunday school... Clean your house!!!!!!!!! OUT! Kent

Go tell that long tongue liar Go and tell that midnight rider Tell the rambler, the gambler, the back biter Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down You can run on for a long time Run on for a long time Run on for a long time Sooner or later God'll cut you down Sooner or later God'll cut you down Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand Workin' in the dark against your fellow man But as sure as God made black and white What's done in the dark will be brought to the light Sooner or later God'll cut you down Johnny Cash

I knew this bill wasn't going anywhere, when I first saw it I thought, 'alright'... but looking at it, it can't and shouldn't. HB2538 isn't wrong, just introduced by the wrong party representatives. We as a State, did a great job from 2008 to 2010, rallying behind a Governor that stood for and is willing to work hard for what Az stands for. 'She' reversed the G&F commission after the Nappy disaster, she strengthened our pro gun stance, she balanced our budget in trying economic times. After the murder of Mr Krentz by a smuggler, she brought Az to the forefront of a fight that we are still in, it's a fight for our country's and personal sovereignty from enemies both foreign and domestic... She still has her finger in the Federal .gov's eye and won't back down. We are lucky. The governor can't enact legislation but must have a supporting legislature to vote and then bring the bills to sign. To change the face of government, we only need to change the faces... And we did, 2010, besides a fairly strong national upheaval in congress, we stacked the state legislature in favor of the governor with republicans, a huge majority. With our 'vote' we dictated that the opposition's voice will be weak and truthfully... ignored. HB2538 rightfully falls into the ignore category through our previous vote. Our vote, that's the difference, and we live with it. 2010, while many of us were concentrating on the national congressional elections, 1070 and the fight with the federal Obama machine... SFW also stacked their political power, basically under the radar. SB1200 and the super PAC... and we saw what the culmination of that power was intended for... Arizona to be converted to the 'Utah experience'... and it ain't over by a long shot. Kent

I've looked at these pictures a few times now, very impressive! Kent

Thank you for the insight, it fills in a few more numbers on the painting, it'd be safe to say since this never went public, these 5 were in a very select few that were offered the opportunity to apply and serve by the framers. Without making a moral judgement on any individual or their intentions, they bought into the premise to protect their own organization, even if not the SFW connection. That's the best that can be said. Legislating the public voice and choice into the control of select special interest groups, it's fundamentally aberrant as an American. More like what we are fighting from Obama and his special interests. This issue needs reversed, not fighting to see who controls the 5 spots, just get rid of it. Kent

Chilton was a AZG&F commissioner during the same period that Gilstrap was... hope that isn't a gross misunderstanding of a connection. The other three have to have a qualifying organization, one represents ranchers. The other two ? We are obviously being ignored and the answers not forthcoming. Kent

It's obvious the leadership of ADA is still in communication, coordination, support of SFW, AZSFW, AZSFWC... or whatever manifestations they represent concurrently. It's now up to the membership to decide if this is the course they want their support and funds to represent. Kent

So the new commissioner, forwarded to the Governor for appointment by AZSFW/AZSFWC... is now the liaison between them and the AZG&F commission? Of course, one more powerpoint of SFW is the state license plate that they sponsor, name sake and control funds from. SFW obviously doesn't feel the need to explain their position or apologize publically to the general hunting community or the organizations, who all supported them these last few years. Though they have no problem going to the G&F commission to protect their political and funding interests with the state. They obviously do 'not' consider themselves dieing or on the outs... YVRGC and AES have pulled their support of SFW. ADA is still in support. The other orgs have not commented. Looking at the member list of orgs and circle members, that is over 60,000 that have been paid in dues alone. Add all the other dues plus the PAC donations, license plate state monies... add someone that will spend 150,000 on a sheep tag willing to throw 50,000 in a super PAC fund to help legislate tags available, times that by how many donors SFW has supporting them from across the country. Look at the time table of events to this point and this being an election year where all the PAC money will be brought into play. The Nappy years culminated to a horrific situation that seemed unreversible. yet when Brewer stepped in, it was alleviated very quickly. This situation is much worse and there is no one step fix... we the public and even the Governor have been fenced out. Who is going to go up against all the money and political power points... not John and ADA... Kent

Nothing to see here... move along citizen... continue moving in an orderly fashion to your designated holding area... move along... nothing to see here... Kent

AZSFWC Board of Directors: President/Chairman - Jim Unmacht Secretary/Treasurer - Alan Hamberlin Director - Eddy Corona Director - Joe Del Re Director - Floyd Green Director - Charlie Kelly Director - John Koleszar Director - Jerry Nelson Director - Mark Nuessle Director - Art Pearce Director - Brian Pinney Director - Shane Stewart Director - Gary Stinson Director - Robert Thomas Lobby for Defenders of wildlife, works with Sierra Club and.... What a tangled web we weave. Tell me again why I'm supposed to support this BS... Kent