RoughCut

That's the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks NRS. I'm not really looking for spots to hunt just how someone would prepare for a new spot prior to going. Bobbyo you should write a book on E-Scouting. I would buy it.

Just wanted to say something since you seem a bit sensitive about a hunter wasting a tag. Even though I directed this thread towards drawing a rifle tag, I was actually more so going to use this info in the even I don't draw in the units I absolutely know and love and have to settle for an OTC deer archery tag. I am always up for hunting new places, but don't always have the time to scout like I want. I promise, I hunt these coues farther harder and for a longer period of time than most. My wife says I need to go to coues addiction rehab.

I guess not the answer I was looking for. I'm a big propopnent of the "work smarter, not harder" quip. If you do walk overy inch of that kind of area, I wish I had yor Job, or free time rather. P.S. The reviews on Amazon for the NG software are heinous, you sure you guys think this is the best out there?

I was really hoping someone could elaborate on the legal aspect. I know in NM you can't touch anything with the skull still attached unless you get the OK from game and fish. My understanding was that, that is not the case in AZ. What makes this pickup any different than a lion kill pick up?

Sounds like a bunch of you guys use the NG topo software, I have been wanting to get it for sometime. Does it show every cow pond and ranch road on there? The water part rouses my interst I think the most. Surely you guys wouldn't just go to this new area and hike every inch to find every water source in a 10 square mile area. I partially ask because i have a spot on google earth in XYZ unit that looks outstanding, quite a hike in however. My fear is that i will get there and see all kinds of two track roads coming near the spot when i sit to glass. So again i ask, how detailed are the NG maps?

Can I just ask how taking 1000's of people out of the current year's draw (those whom in the prior year drew a PREMIUM TAG) wouldn't in fact increase the overall odds of drawing? I apologize if this has been discussed here before, some of us are relatively new here and haven't had the priveledge to discuss it yet. The point is, there are too few permits for the large number of people who are applying. Removing those who drew tags recently does not significantly improve your odds of drawing. It's kind of like prohibiting everyone who won $1 or more in a lottery from ever again buying a ticket in the mistaken belief that if you wait long enough (and live long enough) your day will come. To take that analogy further, if you think bonus points are the answer, spend your entire next year's paychecks on Powerball tickets and see how it improves your odds of winning that $64 zillion. And if you believe I'm wrong about both of the above, let me tell you about Santa Claus. He actually lives on the beach at Mazatlan. If you want to improve your odds, ask what needs to be done to allow more of us to go hunting without adversely affecting wildlife populations -- and then see that it gets done. Bill Quimby I've gotta say one thing, I didn't jump into this discussion to fuel everybodies sensitivities. I was just making a civil comment that I thought would help a very difficult situation. I didn't say the wait period was a cure-all by any means. yes the change; would be small but it would help. To be perfectly honest I don't even know if I would endorse the change. I like the system the way it is.

Can I just ask how taking 1000's of people out of the current year's draw (those whom in the prior year drew a PREMIUM TAG) wouldn't in fact increase the overall odds of drawing? I apologize if this has been discussed here before, some of us are relatively new here and haven't had the priveledge to discuss it yet.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say by this. Always puts in by himself What allotment phase are you referring to. You are right 11m and 6b wouldn't be under the premium category as New Mexico's guidelines stipulate, but like I said, we don't have to use NM as the ultimate example. Not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking what TYPES of hunts should be allocated as PREMIUM, then I think the pure application to tag ratio would be an excellent indicator regardless of TYPE, or season of hunt. Absolutely, unless they wanted to build points.

In New Mexico they designate premium hunts as "An elk or deer draw hunt which had at least 22% nonresident applicants for the previous two license years." Just an example of a POSSIBE designation.

I think everyone would agree that AZGF should put a two year wait on drawing a "premium tag" like New Mexico does. It would prevent things like my brother-in-law drawing 6b,11m, 9 and 8 archery bull tags in 4 out of 5 years. It was great for him, but I have been putting in 5 years now for the same hunt that is almost the highest drawing bull archery tag there is and haven't been drawn. I really think that would spread the wealth significantly, and perhaps more than fiddling with the bonus pass. Do you guys concur?

Hey Red, that reminds me of a question I have been meaning to ask. Is there no publication for with NR draw info. I subscribe to one magazine and they tell how many NR drew with X amount of bonus points. Do you just have to call to get that info?

I always try to avoid this conversation as it can get pretty hairy. But a few comments I want to make. If we could fast forward 30 years from now are we gonna see people with 38 bonus points for elk. The simple math suggests that FACT there are too many applicants for too few tags. The bonus point system will slowly deteriorate over time. Those who got on the bus early with bonus point will reap the rewards. One day when there are 600 applicants with max bonus points it will be completely useless. Game and fish will have dug their grave. What are they gonna do purge the bonus points? Imagine the uproar. I personally think the bonus pass is a terrible idea. Right intentions but not gonna work for the reason stated above. woopty doo if you have 17 bp's and the next guy has 16, you essentially have no advantage over him UNLESS you are in the bonus pass. Or perhaps the system is perfect and we just have too many whiners. If you have 19 bp's and don't get drawn year after year, "get over it" If you choose to play the powerball don't whine if you don't win. There are Plenty of amazing hunts that you can be sure to draw with 19. The problem is that the bonus point system is really over-rated and people expect too much from it. I think you guys are right. New Mexico knows what they are doing. No gripes. Everyone gets an equal shot. Nobody gets punished for joining the hunting game late. Also Like NM, maybe it would be a great idea to designate premium units, dissallowing those who have recently drawn from putting in for a premium hunt for a given amount of time.

I read in a publication the other day that this was no mistake. I guess the hunt was brutal, why? I don't know.

Beautiful mount, I am jealous. I have a question, I am always trying to sharpen my judging skills and I have to ask what that buck taped out at. I can't beleive how much smaller that buck looks in the field photo and it is throwing me way off. Thanks

Great Question, I have wondered about that too. I think Duwane Adams has a DVD but I really want to know if someone has written a book.

I was really interested in the new G5 Optix XR, with the three fixed pins and the fourth that you can dial in the yardage. Anybody have experience with this site?

LMAO You had me going so good there. I was like hmmm.... Winchester spotters, never heard of em. Classic!

Good Question Mike, To be perfectly honest all of those units are smokin' for Deer numbers. My fave would be 33 followed by 36A. Don't have experience in the other units. And you are right, if you draw you will be pretty much by yourself for the Jr.'s hunt. Beware you will become hooked.

Mine was stole too. Do you need my address. BTW I am a great guy too... I swear

Hey Red, How can you tell which tags went in the 20% bonus pass from that chart??

I personally think you would REALLY be wasting your time. If the odds were maybe 98% you might have a shot. But there would have to be a reasonably drastic occurance for there to be leftovers in a prior 85% draw. I would advise towards 100% draws. This still doesn't mean you will draw however. You are still put in a "draw" for third fourth and fifth choices. Also if you aren't going to use all 3 of your second round choices(3rd 4th and 5th) then put in your 85% draw as a third choice and a couple of 100%'ers for your fourth and fifth. Fruitier things have happened. I wouldn't count on it though. Another recommendation too, if there were tons of leftovers the previous years then you will have a great chance at picking up a leftover tag at game and fish and you can build a bonus point for next year.

That is terrible man, I say you post the pic like packhorse said, for everyone to see.

geez, your numbers are right. I don't know how I got that. Phew that is a little better, not quite the jump in bucks taken than I had thought. I wonder if this holds up in the other units that had an increase in tags. If I remember right I thought Game and fish was aiming for more opportunity, same harvest number. Am I making this up or does anybody else remember that. I also know this is only one year of data, and hardly significant enough to be indicative of a serious trend. Also, I hope the 2 bucks per square mile thing is WAY off. I used the ruler on google earth to measure the size of 33. Came up with real close to 1000 square miles. I hope we didn't take upwards of 40 percent of the bucks out of there last year.

I got the 765 the same as you did for 2008 I did the same math for 2007 and got 453. THe arizona hunt data book I think might include jr hunts muzzys etc.. I was just wondering if this big jump was due to the extra tags allocated or perhaps something else.