TAM

Casey, how do you measure a .185 inch group? Not bashing, just curious? Even if you put five bullets through the same hole with a .270 that hole is going to measure .277 inches across? When you measure groups don't you measure from the outside edge of the two furthest holes?

I'd have shot him too, but there is no way I would have put him in my truck let alone touched him! No way in heck I'd even think about eating him either!

Nice buck! Congratulations.

These are a few of the questions that pop up in my mind as I read through this discussion. They're not meant to bash anyone. I just have to ask because some of the statements in quotes seem outrageous, unfounded, and in some cases just plain wrong. For the record, I don't own a chute plane, nor have I ever flown in one. I'd say that when it comes to scouting I'm not against their use, but I am very much against their mis-use! Daverp - "My personal belief is that any "eye in the sky" technique short of your own leg power to drag your butt up to the top of a hill or mountain to glass is unethical." That's a pretty broad statement What about trucks, horses, a bicycle, a pack goat, a float plane, or even a pogo stick? Dare I even mention an ATV? What are your thoughts on trail cameras? Rembrant - "...the chuters are pounding them" I always enjoy and respect your thoughts, but I've just got to ask, do you have facts that support this statement? Is it your opinion or a prediction perhaps? Noel - "My final word on this subject is that it may be legal now.But if we can still expect to hunt in the future then the powers to be need to make it illegal to fly." - It is already illegal to fly during the hunt. Bobbyo - "These bucks are likely to have never seen a human, never experienced a hunting season. They would be as wise as a 1 year old spike, how could they not be." - Your reason against chute planes is because they could find animals in remote areas that are not as wise? These remote animals would be more easily shot because they are not as wise? Daverp - "Personally, this whole thing really takes the shine off of Mr. Ulmer's image as far as I'm concerned" - So because you have a different opinion on an ethics issue it's ok to look down your nose at him? Daverp - "but he's still using the tactic not available to most hunters to greatly increase his odds of success over traditional, hard earned methods." - Sounds like since you don't have a chute plane no one should have a chute plane? I'd also like to see some factual information that supports your theory that chute planes "greatly increase" hunting success? Daverp - "More importantly he's using a method that most hunters would find unethical." - This may be your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's everyon else's opinion as well. Coues7 - "if we look the small picture it would be cool to use chute planes, helicopter and such to locate game.....this gives us the MAJOR UPPER HAND" - If used within the current AZ laws in the very best senario a chute plane still only tells us where animals were two days ago. How is this a "major advantage"? Advantage - yes, Major advantage - ??? I have trail cameras that can tell me where animals were two days ago, but I've yet to shoot one of them. How is this any different? Bobbyo - "glad you are back on the side of good instead of evil" - So just because you are anti chute plane's that makes a chute plane scouter evil? Isn't that kind of self righteous or are you trying to be sarcastic? Bobbyo - "yet a guy in a chute plane can spot a trophy mule from the air, know its exact location and then list his trophy in the book." - How do you know his "exact" location? If you were using your chute plane in accordance with the law, at very best you would know exactly where he was 48 hours ago? Is it different if I used a trail camera to find his "exact" location?

Yep, I guess it's all perspective. When I first started using trail cameras with film, they would use like two 9 volts, and 4 C's and all you would get was like 50-60 pic's. The moultrie was my first digital and I thought it was great because it got so many pic's from one battery. Now I also use home brew cameras and they can get 500-600 pic's from two AA's and a 9 volt battery. They could get thousands of pic's if I added the extra battery packs like you have in yours.

Josh, the buck I saw was alive. I'm not sure if anyone ever shot it? Send me a picture of Jay's buck and I'll tell you if it looks the same?

I asked this question earlier on this same post and none of the anti chute plane crowd responded. So here it is again. In Arizona it's only legal to use a chute plane for scouting purposes up to 48 hours before the start of the hunting season. There's a bunch of you on here saying that chute planes are unethical even when used inside this law. In Alaska it is perfectly legal to fly over caribou herds, river drainages and other areas scouting for game animals during the hunting season as long as you don't hunt within 24 hours of flying. It is common practice up there to get on a bush plane with tundra tires and have your pilot fly you out in front of the migrating caribou herds so you can hunt them 24 hours later. Why is it that nobody blows the ethics whistle on the rules in Alaska but many choose to whine about using chute planes in Arizona? In fact, I'll bet that most of the anti chute plane advocates on this very thread have no ethical conflicts with hunting caribou in Alaska in the above mentioned fashion. Sounds like a double standard to me???? Speak up anti chute plane people.

I saw one a few years back in unit 31. I hunted him hard during the October hunt, but never saw him again.

I don't use mine anymore since it was vandalized, but I didn't consider it a battery hog. I'll bet I got 300 pic's per battery.

It seems to me that bucks in the northern units tend to have larger bodies than those in southern Az. Even my taxidermist has noticed this. I'm not sure if there is any science to support this like genetics or climate? Isn't there a theory about the further north you go from the equator the larger the bodies of deer get? Perhaps that has something to do with it?

NM is a tough hunt with a rifle let alone a bow! Great potential for trophys, but coues can be very difficult to find. Like anywhere scouting is important, but from my experience it's extra important in NM. The sheds in my Avatar picture are from NM and would score 120+. Good luck!

I always figured 15 inches.

I was thinking on the hoof, but Azpackhorse may be right!

I'll bet that fat buck on the bottom will go at least 130!!!

Chute planes CAN NOT fly around at 5mph! Most fly at speeds of 20-25 mph.

Mulie hunter, sounds like your real gripe is road hunters? I agree with that. It's illegal, they should be cited and punished. But when you say - "How about banning atv use during hunting season!!!! Nothing worse than these clowns that ride up and down the roads all day long, They definetly need a IQ check!!!" It sounds like you want to ban everyone, including those that follow the laws. I would disagree with that. I'm not one of these left wingers that likes to creat a new law to govern every detail of ones life. If we simply enforced the laws we have we wouldn't need all the new laws!!!! For example: If we enforced the no road hunting laws then nobody would care about banning ATV use during the season because there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is we don't have the means to enforce the laws that are already on the books. And there are a lot of slob hunters that know they can get away with it.

Why is it that nobody complains about the way things work in Alaska? After all there rules are even less strict than Arizona. Just mention a chute plane and hunting in the same breath in the southwest and you are a dirty, no good, poaching, scum bag!!! In Alaska I believe the law is that you can't hunt within 24 hours of flying. In Alaska it's regular practice by the outfiters and bush pilots to fly out and find the migrating caribou herds from the air then drop the hunters off in the path of the herds. The hunters will wait the 24 hours then go hunt. In Arizona you can't scout from the air with in 48 hours of the hunt or at any time during the hunt. Seems like Arizona has a more strict law than Alaska where scouting from the air is common practice and widely accepted. Why do people make such a stink about chute planes in Arizona, but it's no big deal to scout from the air in Alaska?

I agree with Coues. Bears in the spring can be active all day long! Especially at water sources. Over the last few years I've gotten many pictures of bears coming in to water in the middle of the day, even in March and April. If there is water in a thick shaded canyon I'd pay real close attention. Bears are slaves to their stomache's.

Muley Hunter, I got to agree with Bass on this one. Who cares if the ATV's are driving up and down the roads during the hunt??? That's what the roads are there for. Get away from the roads and you won't have this problem. Now if the ATV's are driving off the roads then that's a different story. I am a responsible ATV rider and use them during the hunt on the roads. Once I get to the end of the road I get off and hike. What's wrong with that?

Many of the bears, especially boars, are active year round in unit 22. I have used trail cameras in unit 22 for several years now and will get pictures of bears year round. I've seen very fresh bear sign in the months of December, January, and February. The bears in Arizona don't hibernate in the same way that bears in other colder states do. So far this year the warm weather has kept the bears pretty active and I'm still getting pictures on my trail cameras. Usually they will bed down for a week or two when it gets cold, but as soon as the temps warm up they'll get back up untill the next weather system comes through. If you know where the bears are this time of the year, they will be in the same areas as soon as the spring hunts open. Do your scouting now so you can be right on top of them when the hunt opens. In the spring they'll usually be up high and will be eating mostly grass, so focus on shady areas near water sources with fresh grass. Bears are usually near water year round.

Thanks Bill, you just had to bring up another sore point with me, minimum wage!!! Why is it that some people think it's ok to beg for higher wages by pressing the emotions of our liberal bleeding heart society??? What ever happed to to good old fashioned hard work? Seems like like the burger flippers and grocery baggers don't want to work for their pay raise, they'll just complain to the liberals that it's too hard to raise a family on minimum wage! The scary part is that the liberals keep listening and pushing for higher minimum wages! One of my first jobs was bagging groceries. I think I made $3.20 an hour (probably a lot more that Bill made at his first job, but I'm only 33). It didn't take me very long to realize that those wages were never going to be good enough. I worked hard and acquired skills that would benefit me in the working world and eventually developed a career path that would get me the goals that I desired. I don't come from money. I barely passed high school. I have almost zero college, and the credits I have earned have letters like c's, d's, and f's right next to them. If I can do it so can anyone else! Well that's if they can find the time to stop crying about how little they make and how hard it is to raise a family on minimum wage...................... the cycle just goes on and on and on................!!! Why would we want to give anyone a pay raise that hasn't earned it?

I wouldn't go out and buy a new rifle just to go pig hunting. Just use your deer rifle. I've only killed them with arrows, but I've been with guys that have shot them with a .223 and a .30-06 and both bullets just went right through without destroying much meat. If you have a handgun that's fun too. Stalking like archery with the bang of a gun!

Lets be honest here and call them what they really are. Illegal Aliens!!! UDA's or Undocumented Aliens is an attempt by the liberals to be politicaly correct and make them sound like they are not criminals. The simple truth is they are not here legally and they are aliens to this country = Illegal Alien. Trying to candy coat things just makes the problem worse. I'm not picking at you AZP&Y, just making a point.

Desertbull, I agree with you 100%. In my opinion they should charge different prices for cow versus bull elk.

I believe that this is one of the reasons that AZ G&F is keeping the $5 to apply and don't pay the balance unless you draw approach. It helps to ease some of the financial burden for folks in the lower income brackets while still giving them the opportunity to apply for everythig without paying for it all up front. The $5 applications allow a family of four to apply for Deer, Elk, Antelope, Javelina, Turkey, Bighorn, and Buffalo for $140 up front, not over $1,800 as mentioned in a previous post. Not to mention that we now have three different draws. Elk and Antelope in January, Javelina and turkey in October, and Deer and Bighorn in May so it splits up the costs throughout the entire year, not one lump sum. Of course you still have to pay if you get drawn, but what are the chances of drawing everything? I'll bet most of the time youd be lucky to draw 2-3 species. The bottom line is that it costs money to maintain our wildlife populations. Alot of money! Even though I personally don't like the $5 up front application, I believe it helps to allow those families who struggle financially to still apply for everything without breaking the bank. I think it goes right in line with the G&F's goal to create more hunter opportunity. In my opinion even a working class family with a plan and a budget can still afford to apply for everything in Arizona!