TAM

Nice looking stock! You could also just buy some taller scope rings and go with the 40mm scope.

I like that map!!! The truth is that most citizens would probably be a little more understanding of them if they came here and were proud to be Americans. But instead they come here and fly there flag, sport there colors, speak there language, and send our money back to Mexico! They don't want to be Americans, they want to turn America into Mexico. John - "There is no such thing as a future for most of these employees". I see your point here and disagree to a point. Just like any group or nationality there are under achievers and over achievers. You can't lump them all into one group and say they won't ever work there way up. Some will some won't. I've seen some that become very succussful and I've seen many that are content with $10 an hour. I can't speak for every industry, but I do know that the construction industry will pay them or anyone else top dollar for skilled labor that can work hard. I believe if they work hard to learn there skill that most will eventually earn a livable wage. But you are right to the degree that they are already behind the eight ball when they get here and they have a tough road ahead of them. "You raise your compensation high enough to attract legal help!!!" So in other words if a "legal" brick layer could make 50K per year instead of an "illegal" making 18K per year then perhaps more people would choose to be brick layers when they grow up? That's a valid point. The problem I see is that's a good idea for a long term fix to the problem, but it doesn't come without some serious short term problems for the economy. There would no doubt be a major shortage of labor until enough legal workers could learn the trades and replace the illegals. For the short term there would have to be some sort of guest worker program to fill the labor shortage, or pay the economic consequences. It's a scary thought what that could do to a volitile economy like we have today. I believe that this new law will get washed out with more politics, law suits, loop holes, and red tape before it ever has a chance to make an effect on anything anyway. Thank you for the stimulating conversation on a touchy subject! I think I'm going to bow out of this one for awhile. This website is supposed to be a place where I can come and relax and think about hunting, not debate politics. I've got enough issues in real life to keep me wound up and I don't want this to become another one of them. Speaking of Mexico........ I almost forgot! I'm heading down a week from today to kill a monster Mexican coues deer. Don't worry he'll have all the proper paper work when I bring him back! Take care!

Jason, I don't know the details but I belive NM G&F was sued some years ago and some law was passed where they could not limit the non residents in the sheep draws. Sorry I don't have or know the details, but I think the answer is something close to what I'm saying. And even though I'm a non-resident and this rule/law would benefit me, I think it's crap! States should have the right to limit the NR's if they see so fit.

Would you mind clarifying your comment "The right way to avoid paying that is don't hire anyone, get off your a$$ and do the work yourself... Whatever you do don't provide a guy health insurance that way we the taxpayers can provide it for your cheating a$$..."? Specificly the use of the word "you and your"? I've kept this conversation very civil and don't mind if we disagree as long is there is a certain level of respect, which I think there has been up to this point. But if you are accusing me of "cheating" and breaking the law then I'm going to have a problem with that! I'll assume for now that you were not directing the comment at me but mearly speaking in general? As far as the $10 bucks and hour goes, or even minimum wage for that matter. It is not meant for anyone to earn a living for there entire life on those wages. They are there as minimums for those that are just getting started in the work force. Do you expect compaines to pay entry level positions at 36K per year just so everyone can drive a new car and not have to have a room mate? I started off at minimum wage when it was $2.35 an hour and I learned real quick that if I wanted to have nice things and achieve my goals in life I would have to work hard to move my way up. If a person doesn't like minimum wage then work hard and get promoted. Don't cry to the government to raise minimum wage! (but that's a whole new arguement right there). "But, Like you said $10 an hour and no benefits is a great deal thats why legal employees are beating down the door to get those jobs... " Believe me there are NOT legal workers beating down the doors to get these jobs!!! That's half the problem right there. If the illegals aren't allowed to do the work then who else is going to step up and do it in there place? "Look, I don't love this law but it is a good start, get rid of the source of the problem... " I think that this comment is probably the KEY to our disagreement. I believe the "starting" point should be with the Federal and State Governments stepping up the fight through tougher dialouge and possible sanctions directly with the Mexican Government, securing our boarders, and getting serious about our local police forces enforcing immigration laws. It also wouldn't hurt if we cracked down on the fake Id issue either. To me that is where we need to start! I am furious that our government has turned there backs on the problem for 20+ years and now that it is out of control they want to point there fingers at the employers and tell them they need to fix it or be shut down! To me that is just wrong! I believe if the Governments did there jobs better we would not need this "new law" in the first place. JMO

You may want to look into the Ziess Conquest line of scopes. They come with the turrets and in my opinion are the best scope for the money. Doug at Camera land has some real good prices on them as well. I shoot the 6.5x20 and love it!!!

I guess I've got the higher power magnifications to compensate for my lack of shooting skills? I wasn't trying to talk you out of going with higher power, I was just pointing out that it is well within the scopes abilities to shoot at those distances. I shot a bedded coues buck in Mexico last year at 404 yards and All I could see was his head and about 6 inches of neck. I hit him perfectly dead center of his neck and rolled him over. That shot was at the last seconds of light and I was using my Nikon Monarch 6-16 scope. It handled the task very nicely. I shot a buck in Utah this fall at about 75 yards on the low power setting and nailed him. I also had a late Kaibab deer tag a couple months ago and connected on a big buck at 72 yards. That one was with my Ziess scope on low power and it felt real good as well. I will say on my two close shots this year both bucks were standing and not running. I think one reason I like the 6 power low end setting is so I don't take close up running shots. Thats how you end up with the ground shrinkage thing. My set up and style of hunting is long range. There aren't many scope choices that will satisify both close running shots and long range shots. Pick your poison and don't look back!

Not to take away from the Pride fighters, but I just think the UFC is the best of the best. You're right about Silva, he was not as agressive as usual. Probably was trying to hard to pick his shots to avoid Chuck's counter attack. He took a pretty good beating. I still think he has the tools to beat chuck, he just needed a more aggressive game plan. Chuck was also spot on that night.

Here's a couple of examples of society being wussified. My kids grade school won't allow the kids to play tag at recess. Too many kids get hurt!!! My home owners insurance won't allow us to have a trampoline. Too many kids get hurt!!!

For what it's worth the guys on the Longrange hunting video are using 14 power scopes and making 1000 yard pokes! If they can do it at 1000 with 14, I'll bet you can do it at 600 with 16.

Very nice!!!

Who are you to say that $10 an hour is not a liveable wage? I'm sure some people have different standards than you do? Other than workers comp, many citizens don't get any benefits, do you have any idea how much it costs for companies to provide health insurance? I highly doubt you have never worked for a company that pays minimum wage. That is how people get there start in the work force is by getting paid minimum wage and working there way up! You're missing my point! I've never said that businesses don't have the responsibility to make sure their employees are legal. I've simply stood by my belief that after a business is presented with a social security card, picture ID, and fills out an I-9 form the business owner has done his part. If the government is worried beyond that they should do a better job securing our borders and cracking down on those that are manufacturing and using falsified documents. Ill say it again with emphasis. BUSINESS OWNERS SHOULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR POLICING THE PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! I want to see the Government(s) do more on there end before they throw it back in the lap of the public to make up for a problem they have ignored for decades! You are wrong about e-verify. It has been stated by the Governor and the Arizona Attorney General that it will remain a voluntary program. Not sure what child molestors has to do with any of this? Not even close to the same.

Both of the fore mentioned Zeiss scopes will run over $600. I don't think you'll be unhappy with the Monarch at all. Just make sure to talk with the folks at Kenton before you buy it. My Monarch is an older model and they do not build a knob for it, but when I spoke with them they did make a knob for the newer versions. That's one of the reasons I bought the Zeiss. Good luck!

John, yes I meant "From" them. Thank you for the clarification. There's no "hint, hint, wink, wink" about it. The employers AREN'T and SHOULDN"T have to police the issue. The law also says if they provide you with documentation and you don't hire them because you suspect they are illegal, then you can open yourself up to a lawsuit for discrimination. You also state that "I have not ever worked for a company that wasn't offering a livable wage so I have never been around the hiring of illegals" You are jumping to a HUGE CONCLUSION that EVERYONE that hires an illegal pays a lower wage. THAT IS COMPLETLEY FALSE!!! I'd be willing to wadger that most are paid at or above state and federal minimum wage laws. You are forgetting, or denying, that illegals are hired for two reasons. The first is cheap labor and the second is because there aren't enough legal citizens to meet current labor demands. Not every company with illegals is looking for cheap labor, in fact many will pay top dollar for good help. For what it's worth, try going out and see how much the illegals on the corner charge for day labor. You'll be hard pressed to get anyone for less than $10 bucks an hour. Last I checked that is nearly double minimum wage! By the way the new AZ law does not make it manditory to sign up with e-verify. It is a voluntary Federal program. Many people are making it out to be manditory but it is mearly a suggestion.

Mike, I don't know what your budget is, but Casey is right about the Zeiss scopes. I love mine and they are pretty reasonable priced. Also remember they come with the turrets so you don't have to shell out another c-note for the Kenton turrets. If the Zeiss are still out of your price range then look at the Nikon Monarch's. I've got one in 6-16x44 that has served me very well. I'd be a little worried about a 20 power scope with a 44mm objective, it may not be able to gather enough light at dawn and dusk to get the job done. JMO. Good luck!

"GSP is an amazing man..." Dude, that sounds a little gay!!!

I don't think there is any wall space left in your trophy room anyway!!!! Good luck in '08!!!! - Tim

I agree with Desertbull that many business want them to have fake ID's so they can plead ignorance. In that case both the business and worker should be busted. However, both the State and Federal Government should be doing everything they can to secure our borders and enforce the current immigration laws. I believe if they were doing there part there would be very little need for fake papers in the first place.

"You know, but you don't know..." Thank you Keith Most Americans are missing that point right there!

JohnF, tell me how its cheating when you hire a person with a Social Security card and a Photo Id and come to find out they are still Illegal? America doesn't realize that many/most of them have fake paperwork. It only costs them $150 to buy fake documents. It's not the business owners responsibility to determine if a federal document is real or fake. That's clearly one of the many police orginazations jobs. FBI perhaps? It seems to me that you haven't ever owned an Arizona business or dealt with hiring people. That's not meant to be a slam either. Many business owners are currently, and have been playing by the rules for years. They get SS #'s and photo Id's for all there employees. They pay there workers honest wages and in general are on the up and up. The problem with this senario is that they have been following the law by requesting paperwork and Id's but you say they are "cheating" and "breaking the law". How is that cheating?

That's a cool looking buck, Congratulations!!!

WOW is right! I didn't think Chuck could do it, and I thought that Matt could.......... Boy was I wrong! At least Manny G. won, and very impressively I might add. He said he thinks he broke that guys leg.... ouch! That was a nasty looking submission! I was really pulling for him last year against Nate Diaz. That fight was really going his way until his shoulder popped.

AMEN JET!!! Thats what I'm talking about!!! Especially about building a fence imported from China

I watched the countdown show last night as well. Anyone that can circuit train for 15 minutes with there nose plugged, breathing through a snorkel, only to finish by taking an ice bath has got to have some serious cardio and will power!!!! Obviously the fight could go either way but I'm picking Silvia, and I think it will be pretty one sided. That's just my guess. Hughes and GSP is going to be another real interesting fight. I think this will be a closer matched fight but Hughes will come out on top. I think Hughes/Serra will be a much better title fight than GSP/Serra.

AZlifer, I would have no problem if the government wanted to hold the employers accountable IF the government was already doing everything they could do to police the problem themselves! The problem we have here is the government looking the other way and doing very little to enforce current laws and secure the borders. The way I see this whole issue is the government does not want to get its own resources involved so they are turning the employeers into the police force. Whats wrong with the Phoenix Police force that they can't arrest a few thousand of the illegals at a time when they are marching down town? Why can't the Mesa Police force simply go down to Broadway and Mesa Drive in the morning and pick up a couple hundred day laborers at a time. Why cant the Fed's make a greater effort to secure our borders. Why can't Washington put some pressure on Mexico to help resolve the problem or face some sort of U.S. sanctions against them? The federal, state, and local government agencies are all turning there backs on the problem and simply throwing back in the laps of the public employers making them the scape goat! It's a bass ackwards way of dealing with the problem if you ask me.

Congrats.......... that's a stud!!!