cdenton

Was wondering if I could get odds for juniors 1 and juniors 3a/3c with 3 pts. Also archery early 27 bull and 27 late rifle bull with 5 points. thanks alot

Slaughter, Yea that sounds about right. You usually don't get out of your truck much. Ha. Just kidding. They've actually finally been getting some rain down there the last couple weeks. They've ran those longhorns pretty hard down there recently and it has seemed to move those goats around a bit. There's some places that are pretty overgrazed and the antelope don't seem to be right where we usually see them. Hopefully the moisture will help. Maybe they moved in the trees some. Give you a little more cover anyway. Good Luck

I work for the Lakeside RD and yes it is opened. Sitgreaves side was opened around noon. Barricades and signs removed.

Yes the sitgreaves side opened around noon today. Portions of the apache side will open tomorrow including big lake, crescent, winn campground, lee valley, luna lake, nelson, greer lakes, hoyer cg and I maybe missing a spot or two. The rest of apache will be opened as they get enough widespread rain. Other portions of fire will be opened as they get enough rain and hazards are removed.

Lakeside and Black Mesa Ranger Districts are now open. Campfire restrictions still in effect til the rain is more widespread. Springerville, Clifton, and Alpine looking to open the non-fire areas as soon as they get enough rain. Heard from a springerville employee that Big Lake, Crescent, lee valley, winn campground, greer lakes, hoyer, nelson and maybe a couple other places will reopen tomorrow. Fire area will more than likely open in segments like the RC fire did. Possibly some no camping or closed road areas due to hazards from flooding or snags but would still be able to enter by foot.

You read the article or the specs? More like 1 million gallons over 4 hours for 1 plane. I can only find a 34 kt peak gust on any of the weather stations in a 100 mile radius of the area...the other manager says they had aerial suppression going right away and you say it was too windy? Which is it? No offense but your and a few others defensive posts are exactly why these things happen. Next up....forest service supports fellow government agency TSA searching underwear of 95 year old great grandmother in airport security. Says that's the right thing to do. I don't know why you want to continue to argue about something that you weren't there and have no clue about. So this is my final post on the matter. One of our lookout towers called in winds that were 70 plus and not measurable on the instrument she had. Some aircraft was grounded because it was too windy and they safely couldn't fly in those conditions and terrain ect. Just like jdnuts said airtankers were dropping retardant but due to the high winds were not effective at all. Pilots called in on the radio daily that due to the column and amount of smoke that they couldn't fly. The wind would shear the column over and the amount of smoke was insane and the pilots said they could not get in there and they couldn't even see where the fire edge was due to no visibility and they shut down. Thats what happened on this fire. You can argue all you want about some article and something did this in canada. All anybody is saying is this is what happened on this fire.

They are lowering it a foot to help catch water to help with the flooding that will occur when the monsoons hit. They have a bunch of fire apparatus still using the lake to get water and they are in the process to try to get the lake opened.

That is some great research work you guys are doing. I never really calculated the costs and have seen that suppression costs are lower than treatment costs. That's pretty interesting. Ya the problem we have now is that we can't let fires go in alot of locations cause it is too thick and we need to thin it before reintroducing fire.

The AZGF used to have a three strike your out policy. They would ear tag them relocate them and if they came back the third time they would dispose of them. Alot of those bears once they lose that fear of humans it's a bad deal. I'm glad they are using common sense now on alot of the situations. Alot of young males get kicked out of territories and are just traveling thru to find a home. But then theres a bear like this that's aggressive and has no fear of humans and doesn't need to be given any chances cause he will do it again.

jdnuts20, You nailed it. Everybody wants to blame the forest service that they stopped logging and they don't want to do this and that. The fact is our hands are tied so bad. We get blamed for everything because we are the land managers but the problem lies much higher than that level. The green trucks are whats in the public eye so that's who gets blamed for everything. One other thing is that the firefighters on the frontline that are getting praise are alot of the same people that manage the land. Whether they are a grunt who fixes fence on an allotment or thinning trees for a meadow restoration project they are a land manager in some aspect of it. There is alot of dam good people and very smart people that know how to manage the land in the forest service. But they aren't allowed to do it and it does come to money and politics just like lark said but it's at a much higher level of government than the forest service. Everybody wants to say that we let the enviros push us around and blah blah blah but the fact is you the public probably have more say than we do in the agency. We try to put logging projects through and other things and they get appealed and it ends up in court and it ends up getting political definitely when DC gets involved and it has nothing to do with the forest service not trying to get shoot done and letting them walk all over us. Like jdnuts said write your congressman. Alot of you have posted its our land. You are correct it is public land. You can sit back and throw spitwads from the sideline and point fingers cause you don't know what your talking about or step up and write your senator and try to make a difference. It's sad to say but you as the public have more power than we as the land managers have and we work for the govt. Our hands are tied and there is so much red tape and loopholes to go through to get anything done. Its sad to say but sometimes some homes have to burn for some dumbass to open his eyes and then keep the enviros off our back for awhile. After the RC fire we were able to get some thinning projects thru without them appealing us. But after a few years we are right back where we started if not worse. The eagar south wui project south of eagar I was a part of and CBD appealed us on that project. Those treatments really helped and the fire layed down and really helped the community. No homes burned. CBD is now trying to take credit for those treatments saying it was a collaborative effort. That's crap. The only effort they gave was trying to put a 16 inch cap on that project and every other project out there. That's the kind of stuff we are stuck with on projects. They will flat appeal us if we want to cut trees bigger than 16 inches. So we can fight them on it and get appealed and fight in court for a few years and then may get a fire and lose everything or you can agree to the cap and at least move on with the project not getting the forest back to a healthy ecosystem but at least getting thinning done and protecting a community that could burn. Those are tough decisions. Dam right you need to stand up against them and fight them on it but that's happened in the past then homes have been lost because of it. Actually i'm the team leader for a 40,000 acre thinning project we are doing basically from lakeside to vernon. That is the upper limits of a project we can do an analysis on at this time. With all the dam paperwork and red tape we have to get through in the analysis that's about all we can handle to get done in a reasonable timeframe and get something done on the ground. It's a large project but at the landscape scale its nothing and we need to be getting alot more done than that to make the forest sustainable again to where it is manageable. You probably remember the schultz fire near flagstaff last year. Major flooding problems on that. Forest service tried to do a logging project in that area. Guess what I don't remember if it was CBD but one of the envirogroups stopped that project. Those people should be held responsible and pay for the damage to peoples homes and whatever else. That's criminal. If my memory serves me right a young girl died in the flooding. They should be held responsible for that. People want to blame the forest service cause that's who they see, I guess I can't blame them cause if you don't know then well the green trucks are what I see in the woods it must be their fault. We have a big stewardship contract on the A/S forest. I don't remember the exact number but something like 20,000 acres thinned in the last 5 years or so. It's peanuts compared to what needs to be getting done. You don't even know all the dam paperwork, time, and fighting it took to just get those acres done. There is so much red tape and garbage we have to do as land managers to get stuff done. We need to knock these enviro groups down and get rid of all this red tape and bullshit and get out of the office and get stuff done on the ground. We need your help. Please write your senators, congressman. Step up and make a difference. Let us manage the land.

Had some wheel time in the 215 a long time ago. No attacks or water fills...just some approaches for a guy who needed to get IFR current. Shortly thereafter I turned down a forestry aviation management job to go commercial which has had its ups and downs, and let me tell you, if you wanna talk about bad managers running airlines, you'll get no arguments from me. I don't own any stock in Bombardier, nor do I have any dog in the fight except like all of this I hate to see this happen to our forests, and I have some perspective that is a little different than the rest out there. Those 215's had radial engines and were pretty responsive. As for the wind, it is always bad here in the afternoon hours, but if you could get enough water to knockdown the fires before the winds get up in the afternoon I think that would be the key. The 415's got updated in the late 90's with turboprop engines and are pretty fast and maneuverable. I think they could easily fill at Roosie or San carlos...and yes that is only about 10-15 minutes flying time at 250 kts as the crow flies and they could dump a lot of water. The article is right about controversy on the approach to firefighting. We seem to prefer a ground based approach but I think that is because it is big money for contractors. The terrain in CA is probably a lot more challenging than here. Sea level to 12000' mountains versus 2000 to 9000' terrain. We always see the ground guys upset with the flyboys and of course then you have the private contractors who have a lot at stake with these contracts and they hate those wet leased airplanes in this country. Saw the same thing with the conair s-2's in BC and WA. Give me a 415 over a PBY or anything else anyday (including a DC10). Give us 10 of them based in the SW Fire Region and get them aggressive early on and I think you will see a difference but that would cost a lot of money and a lot of people willing to change their thinking which we can all tell from some of the posts here probably won't happen. Moving $$$ from PBY contractors and ground based solutions to buy 10 of those turboprops probably won't happen until 500+ homes burn down in Pinetop/Payson and/or FLG...like they did in LA County in the early 1990s. Enough about these waterbomber planes. You stated that your a commercial pilot and that you havent fought fires. Then you don't know what goes on, on these fires. Nobody is bashing your precious little 215s. They are probably very useful in canada or california where you have a ton of water. We don't have these large bodies of water up here and we had a major wind event when this fire started along with heavy heavy fuels. We are not talking brush and grass. Have you personally flown in and out of bear wallow and the canyons and terrain that this fire was in. The fire was spotting 3 miles ahead of itself. The wind was crazy. Our lookout towers had gusts over 60 miles per hour. Sorry but your analogy if we would have had a bunch of those planes this fire would have been stopped. It would have been pissing into the wind. You say they carry 6 times the amount of a heavy helicopter. So that's at least 6000 gallons. They would never be able to drop very low in the terrain this fire was in. The water would have ended up everywhere. The saying pissing in the wind would have fit real well here. Nobodys arguing that there isn't a place for them. They may do great in the desert near roosevelt where you can attack a fire fast and you don't have major spotting with thick timber and major topograph and you have a quick turnaround.

If you want to read what the real truth is and what actually has happened with people that have been there from the start you can read under campfire then unit 1 27 hunt closure.

This afternoon I was in nutrioso and dry valley and we got a good little shower. Nelson reservoir to eagar then across to southfork also got a good shower when I was there. didn't rain real long but long enough to wet the ground and create some puddles. If we can get some of these nice mellow rains and get some green up before the big rains set up that would be great.

I thank you for your dedication and work out there....I certainly don't mean to minimize it. All I am saying is unless you have seen CL215's scooping and dumping every 10 minutes in a serious run, you haven't seen the full effect of tankers on a fire. I have. I have never seen CL 215s used in this state and with two major fires in the last while, we are doing something very wrong. You are looking at it from the perspective of ground crews and that is all I am saying....in AZ we seem to be doing it backward from what other places do. Can you honestly tell me if they had 5-6 dedicated tankers working this fire from day 1 that would not have had an effect? Consider this wiki web snippet: "Fleet grounding: In the United States, most of these aircraft are privately owned and contracted to government agencies, and the National Guard and the U.S. Marines also maintain fleets of firefighting aircraft. On May 10, 2004, The U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) announced that they were cancelling contracts with operators of 33 heavy airtankers. They cited liability concerns and an inability to safely manage the fleet after the wing failure and resulting crash of a C-130A Hercules in California and a PB4Y-2 in Colorado during the summer of 2002. Both aged aircraft broke up in flight due to catastrophic fatigue cracks at the wing roots. After subsequent third-party examination and extensive testing of all USFS contracted heavy airtankers, three companies were awarded contracts and now maintain a combined fleet of 23 aircraft." and compare it with this one... "Some firefighting aircraft can refill their tanks in mid-flight, by flying down to skim the surface of large bodies of water. One example is the Bombardier 415. This is particularly useful in rural areas where flying back to an airbase for refills may take too much time. In 2002 an Ontario CL-415 crew proceeded to refill 100 times within a 4 hour mission, dumping an astounding 162,000 US gallons (613,170 litres) or 1,350,000 pounds of water on a fire near Dryden Ontario." All I am saying is that the politics of aerial firefighting is BS in this country. Press and environuts and professional bureaucrats have wrecked it imho. I checked the wind reports - the peak gust was 34 kts, the average wind was 20 kts. No offense but in the summer in the SW USA, that is standard flying wx. No clouds, great vis. Roosevelt full and 10 minutes flying time away. Again, one crash in 2004 and the bureaucrats ran for cover. Why we don't have a bunch of these 415's in the govt service is even more political BS. No - just observing and thinking outside the box we could do things a lot differently. As being an ex hotshot for many years I never went to a fire by parachute and dam i must have missed all those helicopter rides. My body might not hurt so bad these days if I would have caught them rides and not have to hike so much. Not sure if your sources with the 20 knot winds were down at sky harbor but that wasn't the case up on the fire. Pretty sure 20 knot winds wouldn't start spot fires 3 miles away. Geez those planes are fast if they can be to the fire in ten minutes from roosevelt. I did not know that they were as quick as the space shuttle. As for the CL-415 they probably do a great job in CANADA. Would be nice to do a 100 drops in four hours. They don't call this the arid southwest for no reason. It would be great if we had all that water like they do I would probably run down there to wal mart and grab me another fishing pole. You have the politics of the aerial firefighting in this country backwards. Politics is why all the aircraft is in the air in the first place. Look at the cost of the wallow fire. Pretty dang high and alot of that cost is aerial firefighting. Speaking specifically to the wallow fire the fact is that airtankers aren't real effective in this terrain. They don't manuever real well and have to drop from very high in alot of locations and with the wind that makes it even worse. You are correct that it is political. Video on the news of the tankers and this real pretty pink stuff spraying to the ground and bam the fires out. Total misconception. I'm not saying they aren't effective at all. There is a need for them and place for them where they are very effective but they don't put fires out. I'll tell you what did help tremendously on this fire is the heavy helicopters. We saved alot of homes in especially the alpine area due to the short turnaround time at luna lake and them being able to drop a little lower and be alot more effective in the wind than the tankers were.

To clarify some things. Can air tankers fly when the wind is blowing 60 miles an hour like when this fire started. heck no they can't. All these stupid rumors that the fire was let go and nobody did anything for a week and air tankers didn't get called is a bunch of horseshit. Ive fought fire for 19 years and I've yet to see an air tanker stop a fire. All it is, is a tool to buy the ground resources some time to get in there and build line and burn and do what they need to do. And at that generally these fires get big cause of the wind. Well whens it's windy the tankers are grounded. The rumors are stupid enough but the people that believe them and continue to spread them is even more ignorance. Do you really in your mind believe that the fire was let to burn in the drought conditions we are in. heck no you don't but everybody wants to point a finger and blame somebody. I understand that everybody doesn't know all about fire but if you don't know then why all the i heard this and causing this ridiculous soap opera. If you weren't there and don't know the facts leave it alone. There were resources ordered and put on the fire the second the lookout tower called the fire in. Trust me I was there from the start. The fact is that the fire started in a very steeep, thick, nasty place and with those crazy winds there's not alot you can do. Theres alot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Just cause it wasn't on the 10 oclock news doesn't mean it didn't happen. I totally understand the frustration of the country burning up. I've hunted and fished the country in the wallow fire my entire life. It was very emotional to watch the fire burn. But guess what the whole 500,000 acres isn't black sticks and all the animals aren't burned up like you may be hearing. I've been on the fire since may 31 and I haven't seen a dead animal yet. Is there some, of course there is but from what I've seen on the ground and on the burn severity map the majority of the country was a nice ground fire. The grasslands that were burned already are greening up. There are elk all over the burn area that I see everyday and alot of elk calves. Saw some turkeys with a bunch of little poults yesterday in an area that burned pretty hot. These animals are pretty resilient. From past experience and what I've seen on the ground on this fire there is gonna be some dam great habitat. They weren't killing 200 inch bucks in 3C like they are now before the RC fire. Fire is a dam good tool and needs to be brought back in like it used to manage the ecosystem once we can get landscape scale thinning done so the burn intensity is lower. Theres also been alot of rumors that the fire was let go cause of the wolves and spotted owl and no dozer line was put in. That is all misconception. I was a dozer boss at the beginning of this fire. Trust me, I put on alot of miles putting in dozer line and the wolves or spotted owls didn't affect that. In fact the misconception of the spotted owl stopping logging is garbage. Good luck getting equipment where those birds are. They are generally in thick mixed conifer on slopes greater than 40%. Are there issues with some of the forest service. heck yes there is just like every other agency, business, store or wherever you work. Theres alot of misconception that the forest service doesn't log or graze or manage anything. Theres alot of effort and analysis going on to get things done on the ground. The fact is that hands are tied due to enivironmentalists appealing and holding up alot of projects in court. Theres alot of dam red tape that needs to be cut to get stuff done. Theres alot of stuff that needs to be changed but it's at the Wash DC level. It's laws and regulations and not giving the environmental groups so much power. Theres alot of dam treatments that were done around alpine, nutrioso, eagar, and greer that helped save alot of homes. Those were all forest service projects and the environmental groups fought us every inch of the way and now they are trying to take credit saying it was a collaborative effort. Not even close. These groups need to be knocked down and the forest brought back to where it use to function ecologically 140 years ago. I ain't afraid to say I work for the forest service cause I know theres alot of dam good people that care about the land and that are trying to make a difference. I have thick skin and know what the real story is so i'm not to worried about things people say. But lets try this on for size. Theres alot of young kids that are out here busting their butt and risking their lives to save peoples homes and save the forest. I've personally went 16 days before without showering. I went 7 days on this fire without showering and went 30 hours without eating trying to do the right thing. But all i hear is the forest service is stupid and doesn't know anything, and let this fire go on purpose, and didn't order air tankers, and didn't put in dozer line cause of wolves. How the heck does that make you feel after you've been out there busting your butt, starving, tired, away from your family, sore, eating smoke. Trust me it's great for morale. What do these 18 year kids think getting a job thinking they are doing a good thing and getting bashed on. These rumors and all the shittalk gets around camp pretty fast. How would you feel wherever you work if you busted your butt doing your job to your fullest capability and people bashed you without really knowing the truth of what really happens. Feel free to PM me and ask me anything that you may want to know. I'll be glad to inform you whatever I can. Sorry about the rant, but a person can only take so much and was just trying to educate what really goes on.