Rhonda's Butcher Shop

Hi Mike thank you for the question on the application of water to your game meat. i am looking forward to, and will answer your question in great detail. unfortunately, i may not be able to respond until around mid december after the end of the last elk hunt. we are currently experiencing an extremely high number of elk coming in for processing. if i find a small window between now and mid december, i will answer your question. please check back, as i intend to comment on meat processing as a whole in hopes that we can begin to change the manner in which game is cared for. thanks again larry

thank you Dan for sharing your experience with us and for re-enforcing one of the main topics of our conversations. i can assure you with absolute certainty that we did not add the hair you found in your packages. i do not wish to debate this point either so i'll move on to invite you all to see some of the pictures i've taken. i will post pictures of the good, the bad, and the ugly so that you can all see for yourselves what all processors are faced with. i have also begun categorizing and recording the animals that come to my facility. i will post those statistics as well. perhaps this is a wake up call for everyone to start learning how to take care of their game. i am still very busy with the general bull elk hunt in progress which will be immediately followed by the last antlerless hunt. i will post my final comments at the end of the hunt on the topic of game processing. until then good hunting to all of you. larry

hello Buckhorn, thanks for the vote of confidence. FYI while on the subject of spoiled meat. this year to date we have turned away two elk and three deer that were completely spoiled. it's really a shame.

thanks Mike. it's encouraging to know that there are still hunters who know where the responsibility of caring for harvested game lies. and you're right about all processors being blamed for the quality of the meat. regards larry

the best solution for all issues surrounding game processing is simple. kill the animal cleanly, field dress carefully and right away, wash the carcass and remove any hair that might have gotten on the meat during skinning, protect the carcass from insects and allow it to cool. the one most important point everyone is missing is we have no control over the animal until it is in our facility. prior to that it's all in your hands. take care of it. thank you larry Okay so it seems that we will not be able to get a direct answer. no big deal... It must be an industry secret or something... When I have animals processed I always pay by the out-the-door weight... That way the hunter knows that it is in the processors best interest to save as much meat as possible... BUT the bottom line is the best solution is to do it yourself.... Good Luck J- there are no industry secrets and we have nothing to hide. let me put it to you this way. not all hunters are as understanding as you are. if i tell someone he can expect to get 150 pounds of packaged meat from his animal and he gets 120 pounds he gets upset and acuses me of stealing his meat. it's that simple. so how do we avoid this. we don't estimate. i have processed more elk and deer than any hunter will even see in a lifetime including the ones you watch on TV and i cannot accurately estimate how much meat you will get after cutting. still not convinced? come to my shop after thanksgiving and i'll let you take a stab at it. let's see if you can guess the weight of several animals, and how much packaged meat will come out of each one. when the processing is complete we'll get another weight and see how close you are. as far as payment for your processing, i'm familiar with most of the processors in arizona, and i don't know of any that charge for the weight of the packaged meat. can you give me this processors name and how i can reach him? i'm curious as to how he can afford to do that unless he is charging a much higher per pound price. let me elaborate on this point. lets assume two processors take in an elk that has been shot three times. one processor charges the carcass weight and your processor charges for the packaged weight. the elk both processors take in has been shot once in the shoulder, once in the stomach, and once in the hind quarters. lets say the carcass weighs 230 lbs. and both processors charge .79 lb to process. lets also assume that each processor has a crew of two wrappers, one trimmer, and two people boning out. lets assume the cutter gets $20 hr. and his crew gets paid $12 hr. both crews then operate at $80 hr. remember the elk in our example has been shot three times, and this, by the way, happens more often than i care to think about. assuming both crews can cut, trim, and wrap our example elk in 45 minutes it cost $59.85 in labor alone to process this animal. in addition to the labor you have paper cost, electrical cost (cooling and freezing, by the way each day you hold that elk is costing you money in electricity thereby reducing your profit), saw and grinder electrical cosumption, crating or boxing the meat after it is frozen. finally we can't forget the labor paid to the people handling the paperwork at receiving and the person quartering and hanging the elk. for our purposes lets say the additional expenses mentioned for processing this elk total an additional $30. the processing of this elk cost $89.85 now lets go back to what the hunter gets charged for this elk. at .79 lb. the processor charging for the carcass weight at 230 lbs. would receive $181.70. assuming this elk would generate 50% of the carcass weight in edible meat or 115 lbs. (now remember this animal was shot three times once in the stomach). are you, as a processor going to give the hunter all the meat including the meat that was contaminated by the contents of the intestines. we don't. getting back to the processors. the processor charging for the packaged weight would receive $90.85 based on 115 lbs packaged weight. the processor charging the carcass weight would profit $91.85 the processor charging packaged weight would profit $1.00 shocking isn't it? the numbers i used above are realistic and remember all processors are in business to make money just like any other business alive. now lets say this hunter didn't skin his elk, the processor did. all the hunter sees is the entry wounds, possibly an exit wound or two, and maybe some of the damage caused by the stomach wound. he can also smell and see the intestinal contamination. he probably knows he is going to lose some meat. he asks the person at receiving, how much do you think it weghs. the receiver answers around 320 lb. (this is still our elk in the example) the hunter asks, how much meat do you think i'll get? receiver answers, you should get around 150 lbs. the hunter picks up his meat to find that he did not get the 150 lbs he was told. his meat was stolen! regards larry

I wish it were as simple as that. there are a vast number of variables involved in attempting to establish an average weight to use as a model. let me point a few of those out so you can begin to see how complex this could become. first of all you would have to develop a model for an animal of every age beginning with a yearling to, let's say, an eight year old animal. you would have to develop this model for both bulls and cows. to use this model you would have to determine the age of each animal you take in. because range conditions in one unit may be more favorable than in another, you would have to develop models for the various units as, for example, a two year old cow from a unit with poor range conditions compared to the same cow coming out of a unit with favorable range conditons could see a weight variance of 20 to 40 pounds. we see this every year. then to make matters worse, not all animals are alike. we have weighed skins of animals that were of approximately the same age to find variances of plus or minus 15 pounds. all of the questions and concerns that are being voiced in this forum have come up at one time or another, and each time a question or concern comes up, we research it to find a solution. the best solution for all issues surrounding game processing is simple. kill the animal cleanly, field dress carefully and right away, wash the carcass and remove any hair that might have gotten on the meat during skinning, protect the carcass from insects and allow it to cool. the one most important point everyone is missing is we have no control over the animal until it is in our facility. prior to that it's all in your hands. take care of it. thank you larry

So do you charge by the pound after any wasted meat is removed? If not, it would benefit to move the scale to the front of the rack. the scale we use at the present time is a platform scale. the animals must be quartered prior to weighing. there is a digital crane scale available which is capable of weighing the animal whole. in our new facility we intend to use this type of scale. the hunter can see immediately what his animal weighs. there will be a scale at both ends of the rail. most animals come in whole, some with the skin and head still attached. the first weigh-in will be for the hunters benefit. the second weigh in is the weight the hunter is charged for. this is the carcass working weight, no legs, skin, or head. to answer your question. we charge prior to removing the waste, basically we get paid for taking the carcass and cutting it into various cuts while trimming away any inedible portions. thank you larry

this is a very good suggestion. a high percentage of our customers ask for a weight at receiving, but it's more out of curiosity as opposed to the yield of processed meat. at receiving i can hang ten elk on my rail at one time and most of the time during the major hunts it remains full as the animals are skinned and or quartered prior to weighing and hanging in coolers. i can't weigh an elk until it reaches the end of the rail. most customers call back the same day or next and we provide them with the weight. as far as estimates, we can probably offer an estimate of processed meat but this is still dangerous. as i stated before you don't know how much waste a carcass will generate until the cutting begins. a small bullet hole can sometimes turn into an internal explosion resulting in more inedible meat than meets the eye. then there's the animals that are shot multiple times on the run. not only is there incredible tissue damage but a lot of times the intestines are ruptured and the entire inerior of the cavity is contaminated. i don't know about you but i wouldn't want any of the surrounding meat that has come in contact with the toxic waste that has spilled out. i hope my perspective on this topic has helped you understand better why we don't like to estimate. regards larry

this is a perfect example of the comment i made in my initial reply to Bill. if there is a problem contact the processor. if you are not pleased with the service nor the results of the processing of your elk. did you call us to find out why you didn't receive the cuts you requested, or is it just easier to join the crowd and start casting stones. i'm not saying what you stated here is not so. i don't know. we have not and will not claim perfection. in thirty plus years of working with wild game, we have made mistakes but we have never tried to cover them up. if you'd like, post your work order number and i'll respond with the cutting report on your elk. if you do not want the detailed information of what we found made public call me at 928-774-1922 and i'll be happy to answer all your questions. regards larry

thank you for your question. we tried that some years back and got in trouble with it. if you estimate short your customer will think you ripped him off. anyone dropping off an elk is welcome to stay and watch it weighed and many do. the thing is you don't know how much damage you're going to find until you start cutting. for example. you might get an elk with a wound in the hind quarter where the bullet may have lodged in the bone, the problem you typically find is that the concussion to the bone causes it to explode damaging the surrounding meat. if you give the bloodshot, damaged, round steaks from that quarter to the customer he'll cuss you for such a poor cutting job. this is a very difficult business we're in, especially with hunters who do not take the time to educate themselves in every aspect of hunting, right down to what happens when a bullet enters the body. as i mentioned in in my response to Bill, there is not a processor anywhere who has not been accused of stealing meat because he threw away what he felt was inedible. i knew a processor who froze and boxed all the waste from each animal and returned it to the customer for thier inspection. he was very quickly accused of mixing animals. it's a tough business. the bottom line is this. if you want the very best meat. wait for the opportunity to make a clean one shot kill, if the animal is running let him go. field dress and skin your animal right away. wash away the blood in the cavity and in the wound area. trim away damaged tissue in the wound area to prevent cross contamination clean the entire carcass, removing any hair that came off during skinning. if you take a nice clean animal to your processor, you're going to get back some real nice cuts. forgive me if my response was a bit long winded, but i have a passion for ethical hunting, and that's what this is all about. thank you regards larry

thank you for your reply Bill, it is much as i anticipated. i too see no point in debating further. in closing, i have only one more thing to clarify with you, you got much more than what you paid for you just haven't realized it yet. i bid you good luck and i hold no ill will toward you in light of our differences. regards larry

Jason thank you for the comment and for the question you asked. first of all let me commend you on your thirst for knowledge. if more hunters asked questions, many of the problems we all face both as service providers and customers could be avoided. the answer to your question is of course completely relative to the specie, the manner in which it was dispatched (type of weapon and projectile), the type of processing desired ie. bone in, vs. bone out, and most importantly, how it was cared for in the field. i could literally provide you with an almost endless variety of scenarios which would give you relatively accurate estimates of consumable meat each would generate. unfortunately at this point in time with the season under way the majority of my time is dedicated to providing our services for hunters. your suggestion to start another thread is a very welcome one indeed. i am in the process of drafting a plan for expansion. the volume of our business has increased at such a rapid rate that our physical plant can no longer support it. in addition to expanding our facility and the services we have to offer, i plan to implement an educational program covering a multitude of hunting related topics. my main focus of course will be field care. my magazine, The Arizona Hunters Connection will feature detailed illustrated articles geared toward proper field care. i have other plans which i cannot discuss at this time that will assist hunters in every facet of the hunt. at the present time negotiations are under way with potential sponsors for the production of an educational DVD which would provide extensive information geared toward helping hunters at all levels of experience. finally i am scheduling a tour of free seminars open to the public that will focus on field care and processing of wild game. i anticipate press releases concerning all these topics in early spring 2008. regards larry

Jason thank you for the comment and for the question you asked. first of all let me commend you on your thirst for knowledge. if more hunters asked questions, many of the problems we all face both as service providers and customers could be avoided. the answer to your question is of course completely relative to the specie, the manner in which it was dispatched (type of weapon and projectile), the type of processing desired ie. bone in, vs. bone out, and most importantly, how it was cared for in the field. i could literally provide you with an almost endless variety of scenarios which would give you relatively accurate estimates of consumable meat each would generate. unfortunately at this point in time with the season under way the majority of my time is dedicated to providing our services for hunters. your suggestion to start another thread is a very welcome one indeed. i am in the process of drafting a plan for expansion. the volume of our business has increased at such a rapid rate that our physical plant can no longer support it. in addition to expanding our facility and the services we have to offer, i plan to implement an educational program covering a multitude of hunting related topics. my main focus of course will be field care. my magazine, The Arizona Hunters Connection will feature detailed illustrated articles geared toward proper field care. i have other plans which i cannot discuss at this time that will assist hunters in every facet of the hunt. at the present time negotiations are under way with potential sponsors for the production of an educational DVD which would provide extensive information geared toward helping hunters at all levels of experience. finally i am scheduling a tour of free seminars open to the public that will focus on field care and processing of wild game. i anticipate press releases concerning all these topics in early spring 2008. regards larry

thank you for the inquiry. you should be receiving a copy of the Arizona Hunters Connection very soon. in it you will find lots of info. if you'd prefer to contact us we can be reached at 928-774-1922. good luck on your hunt larry

thank you for sharing your concern. we had the same concern several years ago at which time we implemented a very effective solution. one of our coolers has three rails dedicated to hanging those carcasses that come in clean. your meat should not under any circumstances come in contact with meat that was not properly cared for.

thank you for your inquiry. at the present time our website is under reconstruction. if you have a bull tag or an antlerless tag coming up you will be receiving a copy of the Arizona Hunters Connection where you will find general information concerning processing. if after reading that information you find you want more detailed information please call me and i will be glad to answer any questions you have. i can be reached at 928-774-1922 larry

Hello Bill At Rhonda’s Butcher Shop it is our policy to answer any and all complaints concerning wild game processing. First of all it is important to note that our policy is also to provide as much consumable meat from the game you provide. In response to Mr. Bill Merriman’s complaint I should first of all like to question his credibility in providing factual information. Mr. Merriman claims his deer was frozen solid as it hung out all night. Mr. Merriman brought his deer to our facility on October 29, assuming Mr. Merriman shot his deer the day before or any other day prior to that, he would have had to hang it in a freezer for it to freeze. The recorded overnight air temperatures beginning October 26th, opening day, through October 28th the day before we received his deer were 28 degrees, hardly cold enough to freeze meat, especially an entire carcass. In my experience working with wild game since 1976, I have never been able to freeze anything solid at that temperature. Mr. Merriman also failed to mention that he did not skin his deer, we skinned it for him. Mr. Merriman is not aware that an animal’s hair or fur is designed to keep body heat in and the cold out. It’s obvious that Mr. Merriman is being less than honest. Mr. Merriman claims that the ribs and backstraps were mysteriously missing even after receiving an explanation from Rhonda concerning those cuts. Rhonda’s conversation with Mrs. Merriman, (Mr. Merriman was too p/o’d to call) addressed his claim. Mr. Merriman received several packages of t-bone steaks and it was explained to Mrs. Merriman that t-bone steaks are the backstraps. She also stated that they received only one package of tenderloins. Rhonda explained to her that all animals have two tenderloins inside the cavity towards the tail end of the spine. This was a surprise to them as they thought the tenderloins were along the top of the spine. Mr. Merriman claims he’s killed enough deer to know this is a rip. Apparently he hasn’t killed enough deer to know where the various cuts come from nor how they are labeled. Mr. Merriman claims to have hit his deer with a 30 caliber bullet in the shoulder; the bullet then shredded the lungs and mysteriously disappeared with no exit wound. He also claims that he saw no other damage. This is true. Since he did not skin his deer he wouldn’t have seen the damage on the ribs opposite the entry wound. By the way, the lungs are not between the shoulder blades 4” below the spine as Mr. Merriman believes. I have to wonder at this point, based on the information I have, if Mr. Merriman knows what the lungs look like. Mr. Merriman was correct in stating he saw no exit wound, the bullet penetrated the shoulder and continued its path through the opposite shoulder where it deflected and traveled toward the back of the animal. The elasticity of the skin prevented the bullet from exiting. It continued its path toward the back of the body under the skin along the rib cage until it lodged in the hip above the sirloin tip. The wound channel along the rib cage left extensive damage to the ribs. That is why Mr. Merriman did not get as many ribs as he could have. How do I know this? After 31 years in the business I learned to pay attention and keep notes. At Rhonda’s Butcher Shop we will not package any meat we believe to be of questionable quality. Mr. Merriman refers to us as vultures who take your deer meat. Mr. Merriman, if I wanted to steal someone’s deer meat yours would be the last. Your shot placement skills and your field dressing skills leave much to be desired. In closing, many of you referred to Casey. Casey has been processing game for a long time and does a good job. It is important to note that Casey will not take in an animal that is not clean. I personally spoke with Casey near the end of the firearms antlerless hunt a few weeks ago. I called to see if Casey had space for an elk, as we had filled our cold storage to capacity, he said yes, then asked me if the elk was clean. The elk had not been skinned and to this day I don’t know whether or not Casey accepted the elk. Mr. Merriman’s deer would have been turned away. It was filthy. The bottom line is this, if you bring in an animal that was properly killed with little damage and you cared for it properly in the field, you’re going to get clean, beautiful cuts. Over the years I have heard bad thing about every processor in the business, not only the Flagstaff processors including Casey and ourselves, but processors all over the state. The two biggest complaints are, they stole my meat and my meat came back dirty and had hair in it. Please remember, we have no control over how an animal is killed, or how it is cared for after it has been killed. You, the hunters, provide the materials we work with. If you don’t get as much meat as you think you should ask your processor why. Don’t go online and attempt to put them out of business, it doesn’t work. Fortunately for all of us Mr. Merriman is the exception and not the rule. We serve in excess of 1500 hunters annually, and am proud to say that out of that many we receive on the average 3 to 4 complaints per year, and those come from hunters who really don’t have a clue what they are talking about. Our glossy brochure, The Arizona Hunters Connection is the result of building a successful business. The businesses that advertise with us would not do so if they thought their reputation and image would be compromised by ours. This response to Mr. Merriman’s comments may seem harsh but I am compelled to defend myself in light of being called a vulture and accused of stealing his meat. Also this site allows for name calling and general defamation of character which is typically not my style but in this case, Mr. Merriman wrote the rules of engagement and chose the arena for battle. To you Mr. Merriman, I ask you for a retraction of your comments and an apology to me and my crew who work long hard hours for you and all hunters. I hope you can find the courage to apologize, if not we will all pray that you be given the strength and guidance you need to keep you from attacking innocent people for your shortcomings. I must also comment on the variety of responses presented by other hunters to Mr. Merriman. Many of you offered your sympathy for his misfortune, and accepted his testimony conclusively. I can only say I’m glad that I am not on trial for a crime as you would condemn me without hearing my side of the story. The information I have presented here was obtained from records we kept on the processing of Mr. Merriman’s deer from the time we received it until the time it was picked up. Thanks to Mr. Merriman, I have added a new policy to our operations. We will photograph every animal that is accepted for processing so that we will have documented imagery of the condition of the animal for reference. Mr. Merriman is not the first nor will he be the last to attack us and or other processors. Fortunately, as I stated before, he is the exception and not the rule. Thank you, Larry Almaraz Processing Operations Manager Guardian Angel Products Inc., DBA Rhonda’s Butcher Shop

Hello Bill I had the opportunity to read your comments concerning your mule deer processing. i'm surprised you left out so many details. i'll give you the opportunity to either retract your comments or resubmit a new draft with all the details. tomorrow i will log in to see what you chose to do at which time i will present the truth. really bill if you're going to tell the story don't leave anything out. let me help refresh your memory. where did rhonda tell your wife your backstraps were? How cold was it in unit 7 that your deer froze and the other 64 we logged in from unit 7 didn't? doesn't it stand to reason that if you didn't skin your deer you couldn't possibly see the damage? i'll stop here so you'll have some time to think about it. to those of you who are extending sympathy to poor bill, tune in tomorrow for the truth. larry