couesdog

I found a lion killed deer that was less then an hour old. I sat on the deer for about eight hours waiting for the lion to return. During that time- two deer walked within 30 yards of the dead deer. The lion never returned- I think I must have spooked it off the kill.

Azhunt, Nope- has nothing to do with wilderness- has to do with cattle grazing on public land in AZ. Lark, I appreciate and respect your views. I know that this issue will not be resolved in my lifetime. It always comes back to the arguement that cattle ranching in Arizona is just a way of life. People are always scared of change. My great grandpa was a blacksmith- he had to find something else to do. Goes back to the statements that you made earlier about "dynamics". (Remember-we are just talking about AZ here not the US) Access is always a concern. We are spoiled in AZ cause we don't have much access issues except in the SE part of the state and in Unit 10. We are not talking about private land grazing. Ranching on public lands in AZ is nothing more than a government subsidized hobby. There are very few ranches in AZ that still make a profit. Some operations, such as the Babbits in Northern AZ, are grazing smart and are actually benifiting the landscape. I understand range management. One thing that you are forgetting is that when cows are in areas with little or no grass (like bighorn habitat), they still have to eat something. The only thing left is the high energy foods that deer need to survive. I agree that we need to stick together, especially as hunters. It irritates me when I see sportsmen's groups fight with each other. I think we have beat this topic to death. I am going to hang up my birkenstocks (they look real nice below my full size lion mount).

AzHunt, Good question! #1- There is no need for cattle numbers to fluxuate. Each lease should have already identified how much cattle they can run during extreme drought conditions. We saw these conditions in 2004 I believe. This allows plant communities to regenerate during wet years and eases the stress on wildlife populations. It will be up to the Game and Fish to manage elk herds at this level also. Right now, the more elk that are killed, the more cattle that are allowed on lease lands. This will also allow fire to stay on the ground and move fast accross the landscape like it should. #2- Cattle need to be limited to historic grassland habitat types. They need to be kept out of the large canyons and riparian areas. Forage monitoring needs to be established on all public land leases to ensure that plant communities are able to regenerate. Long term goal is to re-establish a productive ecosystem in which all wildlife can benefit. This will enhance hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, biking, bird watching, etc.... It won't do much for mining, farming or ATV riding-sorry.

NRS, I have seen cows in steep canyons such as Kanab Creek, West Clear Creek, Beaver Creek, the canyons north of Morenci, and Sycamore Canyon to name a few. One thing that I have noticed about science is that you can find a study that says anything you want it to say if you look long enough. I am not sure where the deer increases are that you are talking about, but in Arizona the deer herds are way down from what they were in the 80's and early 90's. That has to do more with weather patterns than anything else. In many places in Arizona, ironically enough, surface water is not the limiting factor. The Kiabab taught us that. The fenceline contrast pictures are pretty alarming in my opinion. There may still be enough food for wildlife, but how about cover, especially during fawning seasons (both deer and antelope). And how about plant regeneration? I don't have a problem with cows in areas where they fulfill a niche, but in areas where the habitat is stressed from drought and areas such as canyons and riparian bottoms, cows don't fit in. I don't think you can compare high impact land use such as cattle grazing with low impact use such as hiking, hunting, birdwatching, fishing, biking, etc.... It's apples and oranges. (note- this post was not spell checked- sorry in advance!)

Wow Lark, gess I no whare you're buttin is. I wil tri to wach my speling in da footure. Coueshunter84, I strongly agree with the fire suppression problems also! I know that the changes in our landscape are not all from grazing. I am simply stating that it is part of a big picture. I don't think ranchers are bad people. I like ranchers and rancher mentality, however, I still think cows do more harm then good in canyons and riparian areas. Thanks Thanks all!

I am not here to stir things up, I respect everybody's opinion and realize that this is a sensitive situation. I also realize that things will never be the way they used to be before we screwed things up. The fact is that we used to have thousands and thousands of buffalo and elk that roamed the great plains. When white man came accross they killed the buffalo and forced the elk to adapt to live in the mountains and canyons. Look at the color of elk, they are designed to live in the great plains, look at how big thier antlers are. Look at Mormon lake in the summertime- that is where elk perfer to live. We had a system similiar to what is seen in Africa with the Cape Buffalo, Wilderbeast and Tompson's Gazelle. We screwed that system up. We brought a large animal over from India (the cow) and threw it into the mix. In my opinion, we should only see cows where buffalo have historically roamed because that is the niche that they fulfill. When I am glassing for bighorn sheep and see a cow, I am quite certain that there were not any buffalo in that canyon historically. There are some ranchers who are better at managing thier leases then others. The example of the rancher who had double the number of cattle on his lease and was still allowed to keep the lease is a good example of how strong the cattleman's assosiation is and is why we will not see a change in the near future. Cows will out compete elk and force elk to compete with deer and antelope. Elk will out compete deer and antelope everyday. Bottom line is that I stand by my opinion that cows have no business in much of Arizona. They need to be in Kansas or Nebraska where buffalo were found by the tens of thousands. I don't like all the fences across our public lands. Ya there is more standing water, but I think sportsmen's groups and other outdoor organizations do a good job at maintaining those waters and add waters where they are needed. I agree that there is no good data to support the overgrazing aspects. The fact is that we are seeing alarming levels of juniper encroachment to our grasslands. We are seeing a decrease in forb diversity in our grasslands, we are seeing an increase in useless plants such as snakeweed and rabbit brush in our grasslands. It is no wonder that the antelope and mule deer in this state have taken it in the shorts (no that is not all from cattle). We all need to be more involved with how our land is managed.

Agreed and good point- however, if our "public" lands aren't managed better, then many of those activities that you have listed (including hunting) will go away. Hi impact use, such as cattle leases, alter the environment. In the big picture, large grazers (including elk) don't fulfill a historic niche in the mountains or canyons. I believe that large grazers should be limited to areas where they could actually benifit the environment, such as Nebraska or Kansas. Arizona is just not setup to support these animals.

Wow, what a shame that we have to talk about cows in coues habitat! How about all the cows I see in bighorn habitat! Cows are grazers- they have no business in canyons. They should be limited to large grasslands like God intended them to live. In Arizona, large grasslands are hard to find and so should cattle. I am all for beef, but I for one am sick of our public lands being raped. Maybe in some areas of southern AZ ranchers are helping to keep access open and I thank them for that, but in central and northern AZ it is sickening what a hundred years of over grazing has done to our land. What a shame!

Doug, A big bull got hit Friday night on I-17 between Kachina and the airport. It looks like the 6x6 in your third photo down. I heard it was 48 inches wide with 53 inch main beams. What a shame!

Diamondbackaz, How do you know that they have hundreds of people put in for one position? I think that is how it used to be. I have a close friend who is a wildlife manager that has about 5 years on and makes around 30k. His wife is the main bread winner in the family and she only works part time. He told me that recently they have had positions go unfilled because there were not enough qualified applicants. That's sad!

Seems like most jobs now-a-days that require a degree pay in the mid 40ks to mid 50ks. If my degree after 20 years of work only paid me in the upper 30ks, then there would be something seriously wrong with my employer. I don't know about you all, but I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. When it comes to something so near and dear to my hart like hunting, I want only the best people in charge of it. So I personally am willing to pay a little more for my passion. I have heard that game and fish is having a hard time finding qualified people to be game and fish officers due to the pay issues. That scares me!!! We need to pay these guys more so we have the best people protecting our hunting and fishing privileges.

Lark, I respect your oppinion, but I strongly disagree. Claude Dallas should rot in a jail cell and then rot in heck. It is interesting how society wants to make a folk hero out of dirt bags. I remember when Danny Ray Horning was on the run in Northern Arizona. People were quit to lable him as the real life Rambo. There were some that even wanted to help him because he left "thank you" notes in people's cabins after he broke into them. He was perceived as a poor sap being hounded by the law. What people forgot was that he was in prison for dismembering a guy in Stockton California and putting his body parts in a dumpster. There are still people that think that the dead guy in the dumpster deserved it, afterall, a person that leaves "thank you" notes would not kill anybody that didn't deserve it. At least with Danny Ray Horning justice was served. He was killed in prison. How about Ted Bundy? He was an average well liked model citizen, until he was caught raping and killing young women. There were groupies at his trial that idolized him. One even married him while he was in prison. Some still believed that he was inocent even after he confessed to the killings the night before his execution! Claude Dallas is no different. He is just another Psyco that has charm. I shouldn't matter was Pogue said or did, he didn't deserve to be shot in the head as he gasp for his last breath. His family doesn't deserve for his name to be slung through the mud. How about Elms? He didn't deserve to have his naked body drug by a horse and thrown in a river. Burn in heck Claude Dallas and long live the memories of Pogue and Elms!!!

Yeah! What Couesi1 said! That piece of waste deserved to rot in jail. This is just another example of how our justice system fails on occasion. Come on guys, a cold blooded murderer was set free and is now among the general population! Anybody who supports that looser needs to share a cell with him.

There was a huge boar hit by a car west of Flagstaff in mid-January. I saw the bear in the back of a game and fish truck. It was dark brown, almost black. I think it was hit near Parks.

As I read these posts, the common theme is "how can we prevent hunters from putting in for the draw". I think this is the wrong direction to go. We need to remember that only a small portion of the population are hunters. Most people agree with hunting as long as they eat what they kill and keep with tradition. If we disinterest the borderline hunters from hunting, then they are open to the evil thoughts of the anti's. I remember my hunter ed instructer telling me that hunting is a privilege, not a right. We are going to vote on some real issues in the near future, such as management of Mt. Lions. Look what happend in California! I think we need to refocus and address the commerce issue. Make selling wildlife parts from a dead animals illegal (this way you can still sell sheds). This deflates USO and will be precieved better by the undecided voters. Although I am an extremely passionate hunter that has never killed an antelope or been drawn for sheep, I realize that times are changing and if I want to have the opportunity to someday draw those tags, then I must sacrifice and encourage more interest in resident hunting. Afterall, I can and do go deer hunting every year (archery) and bear hunting and lion hunting.

Grant, I have spent a lot of time in 42 and have seen some great bucks around Black Rock and along the northeast side of the Bellmount Mts. Access the Bellmounts from I-10 where the powerlines cross the road and head to the Hummingbird Springs wildlife area. There are a couple of water catchments up there that can be key. Hunt north and east of Black Rock toward the Vulture Mine Road. Sorry, I have never seen or heard of anybody seeing a coues deer, but maybe you'll be the first! Happy Hunting!!!

TREESTANDMAN, I was bear hunting when I killed it. There were three of us and we were sitting back to back to back around an aligator juniper. We had seen a bear in that spot the night before and could not get to it before dark, so we started calling first thing the next morning. My buddies were the ones calling. They were using a fawn distress mouth call and were calling simultaneous. The lion came into 50 yards after about 5 minutes of calling. He was a small Tom (probably not much over a year old). We must of been right on top of him when we started. The country was rugged as we were on a land peninsula with steep canyons on either side. We were calling for bears, so we were not very well concealed. The lion caught the movement of me raising my gun and came in another ten yards very rapidly. The only thing visable above the tall grass was his head. The experience was a rush!! Lark hit it right on the nose. If you are hunting in AZ then you should buy a lion tag every January.

I have had over a dozen chance encounters with lions. I missed two and finally got one after I called it in. It was in unit 8.

How about this theory? I believe that the number one cause for a dwindling deer population is the range conditions. These poor conditions have been severely impacted by drought throughout the last decade. The drought has been compounded by the lack of effort from the Forest Service to reduce cattle numbers and though the Game and Fish has reduced the elk population in recent years, it is still higher than the carrying capacity. When the bulk grass is gone, elk and cattle have no choice but to eat the browse and forbs that the deer herds rely on (both mule deer and whitetail). Yes predators play a role as well, but larger predators such as lions, are for the most part, keeping the herds at the capacity of the land. For example, a lion may kill 52 deer sized animals a year, this includes elk, cattle, javelina, pets, porcupines etc... More realistically, a lion may kill on the high end 20 deer per year. Of those 20 deer killed, 15 of them may die anyways because of the poor range conditions (arent the weak and old easier to kill anyways?). If you look at your favorite unit's fawn crops in the last five years than you will see why the deer herds are dieing. In some units, less than 10% of the does raised an independent fawn. This is because either, the doe was to unhealthy to bear young and aborted the fetus, the doe gave birth to a weak fawn that did not find enough energy to survive, or the doe gave birth to a healthy fawn, but had nowhere to hide it cause the grass was all gone and the coyotes gobbled it up. This makes the main culprit the coyote, not the lion. Regardless, the reproduction is not keeping up with the mortality and that is most likely attributed to overall poor range conditions and not Mt. Lions. But just in case, I did harvest a lion a few years ago!