Diamondbackaz

Well CHD I don't have a hard time replying, you have insulted most everyone that posts on this site. It is toatlly unethical of any hunter to take a delight at watching any animal suffer even if it is a coyote or even a rattlesnake. You have totally discredited yourself by displaying your ignorance and your ethics. Where in the world did you come up with that "hidden" agenda. This is totally baseless and based totally on your assumptions. The research that you mention, if you can't tell me what research it is, and who did it, don't mention it. Your thread is just what gives anti hunters ammunition for their cause.

Heres an e-mail I just got from a friend: Dear Sportsman, Are you a hunter or an off-road enthusiast or someone who just enjoys the outdoors? A recent proposal to create the Tumacacori Wilderness area could affect your access to land on which you currently hunt and hike. The Tumacacori Mountains Multiple Use Group represents a group of ranchers, hunters, 4x4, and small mining enthusiasts who oppose the creation of a Tumacacori Wilderness. If this proposal succeeds more than half of the existing roads will be closed; easy access to campsites and ATV use will be eliminated. No wheeled vehicles would be allowed off the designated roads. This will significantly affect anyone who is using current access. Wilderness as defined in the Wilderness Act of 1964 does not fit the Tumacacori Mountains. It is not 'roadless' and has many ranch improvements and small mining operations. We believe the Tumacacori Wilderness Proposal represents extremist environmentalism. Ranchers will be forced out of operation because of restrictive regulations. Border security will also be in issue with this proposal. Illegal aliens and drug smugglers already traverse this area by the thousands. Assigning wilderness status to this area will decrease the access to the Border Patrol and other federal agents. Illegal activity will increase and endanger hikers and hunters. Please go to the website http://www.tumacacorifreedom.org . Please use the website to send an email to your congressional representative (or all), and specify your district. If you wish to not be included in any further mailings please email us at: info@tumacacorifreedom.org.

I have a friend who was hunting a canyon and a couple of guys came over the ridge in a vehicle and got out and shot their rifles into the canyon to try to scare something out. I was doing a stalk on some Elk when I heard voices behind me and looked back to see two hunters walking side by side across the meadow having friendly conversation. Lets face it there are too many people who like to hunt but are not real serious about it, or just ignorant about what they are doing. As I mentioned in a post I started titled "December Hunts", I would be willing to pay three times the going rate to hunt a December Hunt with less hunters. I believe Yahoos that don't take hunting very serous would be more likely put in for a cheaper hunt. Another option is to hike into an area where most hunters would'nt think about going.

Amanda, well stated//

There is no question that the influence of ranching has forever changed the ecology or "balance of nature", and it's hard to tell what that effect it has been since there is probably little data on what things were like before ranching came along. I have to disagree with the "no bust", mountain lions are hunted and are bagged which is something that didn't happen a lot before modern firearms, tracking dogs, and varment calls.

I will have to agree with you that the drought does make it easier for predation when water sources become limited. My two favorite areas in 36B has had a major population decrease. I feel part of the problem has been disturbance by illegals, but who knows.

Well I am certainly no scientist here, but lions have been hunting these deer for thousands of years way before the white man came here along with modern firearms and game managment. There is no question that lions are going to impact populations and killing a lion will increase populaton. Simple cause and effect. However, we have gone through some serious climatic changes lately and wildfires also play a role. I personally think lions are all over where ever there is deer. Simple assumptions built on certain observations cannot be turned in scientific conclusions. Go to this site http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story1.html and click on "more of the story" when you finish reading the page your on. Read the whole story. The Kaibab deer incident is an excellent example of how even research can be wrong/

I believe the drought conditions have taken a toll on the deer populatons especially Mule deer. How does one know how much toll Lions have on the deer populatons?

FYI, if you haven't seen the dates for seasons, scroll to page 11 of this link http://www.azgfd.com/pdfs/h_f/fall_biggame_guidelines.pdf

I was watching the news last night and they interviewed some nut from earh first and have people illegally camped out up in the canyon (makes good lion bait huh). To show you how crazy these people are, the one said he would get between the rifle and take the bullit to save the lion. I knew the day our governor took office what type of govenor she was going to be, no surprise there.//

I don't look at this issue as a pro hunting or anti hunting issue, and the decision to hunt the lions had nothing to do with us sportsman or pro hunting. After both the Forest Service and the Game and Fish got sued over the bear attack on Anna Kanocle (spelling?) a few yers back. The Forest Service and Game and Fish made the decision based on the liability issues and opened up their own bag of worms. The Forest Service will also lose visitor fee dollars if they had to close the canyon for awhile so theres another money issue. I hoped that they didn't make the decision that they did because it has put hunting in a negative spotlight in the media which really doesn't help us as hunters.

Interesting hypothesis, and I do agree that there are smart big bucks out there that die of old age that shouldn't die that way. However, I believe that hunting pressure and environmental conditions along game managment practices have a lot more to do with it. I believe that there were a lot more deer 50 years ago with a lot less hunters shooting at them. I remember a time when there were always left over white tail tags that were never issued. Now for Mule deer, my dad use to hunt 17A (a heavly wooded area) for many years with his cousin since the 1950's. His cousins uncles have been hunting this area since the 1920's. I once saw an old picture of theirs with two trees holding four deer each. There were at least five other camps near theirs and most everyone in the area got a deer. This came to a screaching halt when the permit system came along. When I went up there with him in the late seventies, our camp was the only one there. I only saw one buck up there the three times I went in there. I came into an area that had so much deer dung on the ground it covered the area like gravel. Why did'nt I see a deer that I knew that were around? There were not enough hunters getting in and getting the deer moved arond. My dad told me that all of the deer he got up there was pushed into him by another hunter. The one buck I did see up there was pushed right into our camp by another hunter, No I didn't get to my gun in time.

I came across a Blacktail on Mount Fagan during a December Hunt. It kind of blew me away, but he didn't move very fast because it was some what cold out, but it was sunny . I got him for a hatband on an old straw hat up in my closet.

I brought this same issue up on AZOD ( http://www.azodchat.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3182 ) and my position is an access one. The wilderness area would restrict some vehicular access even though many of the roads are cherry stemed. I know this unit well and I believe that there is plenty of remote areas already there that trophies can be found. You will just have to hike in. And yes, this area is getting trashed. The illegal traffic has screwed up one of my favorite hunting areas by creating a large human presence.

That area will most likely see more impact especially from the dirt bikers and other offroaders as the area to the east of there (Total Wreck and the Narrows area) has gotten a lot of use.

I'm much like Allen, I was born and raised here in Tucson, and still live here. Graduated from NAU up in Flagstaff and I am a shop teacher at a local high school. I like to hunt 36B the most since it it is such a diverse unit and have taken several deer out of there. The illegals have had an impact on this area and I am considering other units. Now Raul wants to make it wilderness and close of my access road to my favorite area.//

The Whetstones are an excellent hunting opportunity. I have only hunted them once about 15 years ago in Apache Canyon coming in from the Empire Ranch. We would see deer down in the tall grass down in the Cienga Creek. Those roads coming in from the north has always been an issue with the Forest Service. Back in the early 90's when I worked for the Forest Service, the head man of the road crew made it a personal crusade to get a right of way in there. But he long since retired, and I don't know whats going on with that lately. I will talk to some people I know who might be able to give me some info. I heard a couple of years ago they wanted to build a road going into the haystack area but I never followed up with that.

Are those the ranches on the north side of the Whetstones?

AZ Guide, you are wrong when you say a rancher has to let you have access to public lands through his private land. If a private land owner cuts off the only road going into an area, there isn't much you can do about it. Access is a major problem here in southern Arizona. I remember when a rancher cut off the only road going into the northeast side of the Winchesters. So the Game and Fish got together with the Forest Service to build a road around his ranch across state land coming in from Ash Canyon on the south side of the Galiuros. The rancher even fought that by trying to keep the road from being built. Unless there is a public right of way through the land the private land owner can lock the gate.//

Griz, I do get the big picture, and you are right that the number of tags offered has gone down due to the drought conditions. Then on top of that you have many more people moving into the state, and many more people are applying for less tags. However thats not my issue because I have never been denied a whitetail tag yet. I can't do anything about the drought and I can't stop people from moving here. Whitetail tags are still the easiest to get except for the December hunt (most Mule Deer tags have a draw rate less than 50%). I usually put in for a December hunt as my first chioce, a November hunt my 2nd choice, and the October hunts as my 3rd, 4th, and 5th chioces. I usually get my 2nd choice. My issue is that I consider the December hunt a premium of the three hunts since it is a longer season, it is cooler, less hunters, and it is closer to the rut. I bet most of the serious hunters on this site also prefer to hunt a December hunt. The November hunt does well for me but I would prefer to hunt a longer season. Arizona Guide was right that the October hunts have the first crack at the deer. However, this season has half the success rate as the December hunt. I went out with a friend on an October hunt and just about died as it got up to 85 degrees . My feeling is that by raising the fee for the long hunt is that many less serious hunters will opt out of a December choice, and then put in for the shorter hunts which aready have 80% to 100% chance of getting drawn.. There are many types of hunters out there. I know of two different groups of guys that hunt whitetail but they are not very serious hunters. They enjoy sitting around the camp fire, drinking beer, having a good time, get up late and walk around a bit. They only go out for the first weekend and blow off the rest of the season. They are a great bunch of guys and loved the hunting trip, but all of them got skunked. Hunters like this would be less likely to put in for a more expensive season.

Lets get some debate going here!! This is a copy of a coment I sent in to the game and fish during their coment period: To whom it may concern, For the past several years, it has been getting more and more to difficult to get drawn for the 16 to 20 day December whitetail deer hunts while the 4 day October hunts are sometimes have left over permits. I usually get drawn for the 10 day November hunt as a second choice. It seems that there is a real discrepancy in these hunts as I am, or anyone else, is paying $22.50 to hunt any where from 4 days to 20 days depending on the season I get drawn for. I believe either equalizing the number of days in a season, or better yet, charge more for the longer seasons. I would be willing to pay 4 to 5 times as much ($90.00 to $110.00 in this case for this years December hunt) to hunt a longer season. I believe that by raising the fees on the longer seasons, the department can increase its revenue, especially on non-resident permits as they would have to pay four times as much. This should also make it easier for people who want to hunt longer seasons to get drawn. All of the "general deer" deer hunts listed in the regs are 10 day hunts with the exception of the whitetail hunts that have three different length seasons. It is time to change this!!.

I have had good luck with the November hunts too. However, it use to be a 100% chance of getting drawn for my area for November and it is now down to 80%. The October hunts still have a 100% chance of getting a tag. The December hunt has a 12% chance of getting drawn. And every year this number gets smaller. It use to be you could buy left over tags over the counter and the tag was good for any southern Arizona unit from the New Mexico border over to the Baboquivaris. I feel the October hunt is a crap shoot hunt as you only have one weekend to hunt and if the weather is so horrible the whole weekend and you can't hunt, well there is always next year. You still paid 22.50 not to be able to hunt. You can see this in the success rates for the various hunt seasons. The longer the season, the higher the success rate. I am only suggesting that I am willing to pay more money to have more time to hunt. And for the serious hunter who spends a lot of money and time for scouting and equipment, 22.50 is a drop in the bucket. I feel that going tag fee based on a per diem basis will make it easier to get a longer season.

I have been a jump shooter all of my life since I enjoy hunting this way. However I am now older now and those killer hikes are getting more difficult. But you said it, most of the bucks that you will find are not the monsters you want to hang on the wall. Most of the deer I get are small three points not worth mounting. I finally tagged a nice one this year and will be my first mount. I have a pair of swarovkis coming in from Eagle optics and I will start doing the glassing routine since now I have to find something bigger to top this one.

see end of page 3 and beginning of page 4 of this http://www.gf.state.az.us/pdfs/inside_azgf...tes01_15_03.pdf

See http://www.gf.state.az.us/nrm/archives/wn_012103.html on info on this court case