MattMan

This is a great head for the coin and doesn't weigh much. Slik 707E

The threads about making relatively easy shots, and about how well a reticle from brand "X" matches a certain caliber or load made me want to share some easy info to help the average guy make a medium range shot. For our purposes medium range means a shot past the point blank range for the particular rifle, presenting the need to start thinking of where to hold. It's also likely not much past 500 yards, if at all, since we wouldn't be using a hold-over reticle to shoot that far, we'd be twirling turrets and have much more practice. Let's start with the rifle. For our example, having been beaten up by various hard kicking long range demons, the shooter has decided to drop down to a lowly 260 Ruger Compact, shooting hand loaded 140 grain Accubonds, at an embarrassingly benign average muzzle velocity of 2600 fps from it's short 16.5" barrel. Somewhat sleek, the BC is a decent but not stellar .509. Since the pear tree in the back yard hasn't started sprouting Benjamins, the rifle at the moment wears a lowly VXI 2-7x scope with a long range duplex reticle. It has two dots, touted on page 95 in the 2010 catalog as being appropriate for the average guy to take pot shots with the average load at animals at 300 and 400 yards. It also has the uber long range top of duplex reference for 500. First, forget about the designated distances for the marks... since after zeroing at 200 yards, the darn thing just doesn't match up or work right when we try to shoot 400, and the 500 yard mark is WAY off. Looking at the bottom corner of page 95, we notice Leupold was kind enough to print the subtension for the reticle. First mark is 2.2 moa, second is 4.8, and the top of the duplex we see is 7.8. So we download an excel ballistics spreadsheet filled with macros and input the data for our load and rifle. First we measure from the centerline of the bore (stockline is a good guess) to the center line of the scope (center of the emblem on the side of the scope) and that's 1.5". 2600 fps, BC = .509, wind = 10 mph, average coues elevation 4000', average temperature on early coues hunt, 900 degrees... oops, I mean 85 degrees. We also put in the recommended 200 yard zero, and go to the next sheet. (Unfamiliar with what the heck the rest of the data is, we leave it alone.) We scroll down the MOA drop column, and find that for our particular situation, zero, and load, the MOA drop values are 2.7 moa at 300, 5.8 moa at 400, and 9.2 moa at 500. Doesn't match at all. No wonder we can't hit anything. But we notice the high point in the trajectory is little over 2", and decide we can stand to be 3" high at the most. So we go back to the first page and enter a zero of 225 yards. Bingo. We now notice and find that for our particular situation, zero, and load, the MOA drop values are 2.1 moa at 300, 5.2 moa at 400, and 7.8 moa at 475. It doesn't match exactly at some ranges, and doesn't match Leupold's chart, but decide since 0.1 moa is about 1/4" at 300, 0.4 moa is about 2" at 400, and we're supposely dead on at 475, we're probably close enough. The 7.8 for the top of the duplex matches up at "only" 475 yards, and being responsible and ethical hunters we deem that to be the limit of our current equipment, so forget about shooting farther... since we don't shoot past our ability, risking simply wounding the animal we covet. Then we wait for a day with relatively no wind, take the rifle to the range and sight in 2 3/4" high at 100 yards. At that point, we jump directly to 475 yards, which is no problem, cause we have a location to practice shooting at the actual ranges we plan on shooting at living targets. Using the top of the duplex post, we sight in so we are dead nuts at 475 with that reference mark. Then bringing the range closer we shoot at 300 and 400, and find out those match up great. Being done with development and sight in, we head to the woods with a huge ice chest full of block ice, take the bags off, and set them up at various ranges from 250 to 500 yards. Then practice like crazy shattering them from different field positions in different wind conditions, so we're ready when the coues of a lifetime presents a shot at medium range... that way the day after we shoot at a deer we get to share a sixer of our favorite dark beer with friends and rest our muscles tired from the pack out... instead of rounding them all up to try to find the deer hobbling around on three legs or trying to breath through a punctured larynx.

BTT

The european mount shown is 100% carp, 5x6 if you count eyeguards, every point comes off of the main beam, and he was a young buck at that... likely a 2 1/2 year old. There was a mature buck that had in excess of 9 points on each side and was knocking on 30" wide in the same area... just couldn't find him during the rifle hunt. I've got field pics with my wife, it was her first deer.

I'm in Pinetop. Both are VERY clean, no rust, less than 4 boxes of shells fired between the two of them. The IC chokes are still in the packages. You can look them up on the remington website for pics... I can get pics up later in the week maybe. Black synthetic, matte black metal.

Do you have excel on the droid?

BR parasite infested smallies.... yum.

Not sure about current production, but Pentax doesn't make scopes. Burris makes them and paints Pentax on the side... ANY drop compensating reticle is less accurate than twirling. They both have their apps, so I run scopes which have both, all Leupolds with either B&C or LRD, the MOA happens to be the same for both. If you really want to shoot long range you need to know the subtension of each dot or hash and match it up to your rifle. The generic hash marks are just that, generic, and there may be a better way for you to use them for your particular load or hunting style. For instance, a 264 Win Mag shooting 120 TSXs @3450 and a VH reticle from Leupold yielded reliable aiming points for 350,475,600,&650. I used the LRD on a Muzzleloader, and depending on the load, have aiming points out to 250/300. When I've got more time I'll go into a little more detail on how to use the reticles to advantage with actual values if anyone thinks it's a worthy topic.

Anyone wanna guess the persuasion of this dude?

Yeah, and refunds won't go out until September. Full fiscal quarter ring a bell? It used to be illegal for the 'pending' draw money to earn interest, I wonder if that's changed?

Martin Leopard or Parker Sidekick depending on budget.

Too many bows and I need to clean out the closet... I'm trying to pass them on to the forum before I put them on CL. 2007 Martin Bengal, Realtree APG, MPro Cam, limbsavers. Comes with Bucknasty 452x custom string and cable, probably 60 or so shots on that string and cable, along with a brand new identical string and cable which was ordered at the same time as a backup/replacement. 55-70lb, 26-31" bow, currently setup at 70/29. Quiet and easy bow to shoot well, decent brace height, fairly short 32 ata, and maintains decent speed. I was able to setup pins out to 80 with a 390 grain arrow. Bare bow, no sight, quiver, or rest. You can still look this one up on Martin's website for the exact specs. $250 obo. Unknown year PSE Bandit. Both kids outgrew it. Flat Tan riser and limbs. Prong rest, 4 arrow quiver, Cobra 3-pin sight, one arrow left. 65% letoff, 19" draw, 10-20lb, both my kids learned on this bow so it's got about a million shots on the limbs and strings, should go a million more. $75 obo. Martin Rage II, from 2002 or so. MOB camo, Fuzion cam, limbsavers. Currently setup at 25", should adjust up to 30", same modules as the new cams. 35-50lb. Great starter bow, was my wife's first one. Bare bow, no sights, quiver, rest. This one may still be on Martin's site, was the exact same bow as the speedfire. $125 obo. All bows are in the White Mountains. 928-200-4823 or mattm94@yahoo.com

I can email pics. Bows are in Pinetop. Bandit is in good shape...

Elevation is easy, 4.5. Assuming passing is not an option... twirl for the 25 mph, 4.25. Hold high shoulder. He's level so if you muffed the wind call you're still going to spine him. Dead ram.

If it had to be a fast shot, crank the scope to 10, bracket the deer between the first and second bowtie in the scope, hold back about 6" on the deer. If I had time, twirl 3.5 elevation and 1.5 wind. Either scenario, dead deer. 6.5-300 RCM 140 Bergers

An 8 or 9 twist 223 and 75 grain Amax or 55 TSX will kill bigger critters than you'd think. Personally helped an autistic 12 year old kill a cow bison with a 223 and hand loaded 55 grain TSXs... tucked it right in behind the shoulder, and it exited the other side, punching a rib in and out. Cow staggered and made it all of 17 yards.... Guess neither the kid or the cow knew it couldn't be done without a 338. I'd sooner hunt next to you driving tacks with a 223 than struggling to hit hair with a 300 Win Mag... and I've shot a lot of stuff in the past with a 300. That said, we shoot a couple 260 remingtons as well as a 6.5-300 RCM and 140 Amaxs, Bergers, or Accubonds.

Your state game commission is directly controlled by the outfitters, and appointment of your commissioners requires their approval. Until that changes, you're stuck... cause the commissioners have NO reason to give a flip what you think. You also have a huge amount of supposedly public land in New Mexico that is inaccessible to hunt anyway, since property owners lock a gate where it crosses their corner, effectively locking up thousands of acres of "public" land.

Anna K. was attacked in the 90s on Mt Lemmon, pretty sure by a bear G&F had relocated. There was also some poor bastard sleeping at Seneca in the late 90s or early 2000s that had his face chewed off after going to a drunken sleep next to the steak bones from their dinner... his buddy shot that one off of him. That's just two from my memory, so it's happened a lot since 1978. There's still no camping allowed at POP. G&F faces tort liability for the actions of any bear they relocate... so I'm sure they do it selectively and carefully. I've been told more than once that relocating a male is almost impossible, since they often just end up back where they were, kicked along and out of other more dominant boar's territory. I'd call in any bear I saw in town and let G&F do their job. I just wouldn't want it on my conscience if the bear went two houses down and ate some kid or attacked somebody... even accidentally, and my only logic being "He didn't act strange to me, so I didn't call it in"... JMHO. In the woods that bear might be chicken 90% of the time, but what about Mrs. Smith who accidentally corners it in the tomato patch in the back yard? What if she's experiencing her monthly gift? I know black bears well enough to never assume I know what they'll do in a given situation, and well enough that I pack leaded .45 cal bear spray when I'm out and about. Coyotes are the biggest chicken in the wild, and I had the urban variety sit and watch my kids play in the yard from about 30 yards down the driveway when they were 5 and 6... do you think I left them alone?

You can add Rainbow, Show Low, Fool Hollow, and Parker Canyon to the list of bucket stocked lakes...

Like new Swaro Doubler with the adapter ring for certain models (10x42 methinks, models are marked on the ring). Like new, no scratches, swirls, dots, anything. Comes with the soft case and cap that came with it. $250 obo Bogen 3405b tripod w/ panhead, twist lock legs, tall enough to glass standing up (I'm 6'1) but still small and light enough to pack. Comes with 1 plate. You'll have to look up the specs if you want them. It's new in the plastic bag, pretty sure I have the paperwork, don't have the box. $100 obo Please call 9282004823 or email mattm94@yahoo.com Items are located in Pinetop. Sure we could hook up in Payson, Globe, or the east valley if you want.

The bonus point system is certainly the worst of any system out there, except for the rest. The problem is, the tag you REALLY want, is the tag EVERYONE ESLE WANTS TOO. Should you have a better chance at a unit 10 early rifle bull tag after putting in for 10 years straight than someone on their first attempt? YES. And you do, with 10 (+/-) bonus points, but that guy with 1 point, or that 10 year old, has a chance, however small, of getting that same tag. That's the stuff kid's dreams are made of. Guys who waited the longest, with MAX bonus points, say 12, have the BEST chance... and a 20% pass. Every bonus point gets a random number. You get 11 random numbers, the 10 year old, or first time hunter, or guy who got drawn last year, gets ONE. ONE! Say you and the 10 year old kid both get drawn, the same year. The next year you both have the same chance of getting a tag. Maybe you get one, maybe not. But at least you have a shot. With a system based on preference points, that 10 year old has to wait 10 years to get the 11 points required for a tag. You get the tag because you have the MINIMUM of 10 preference points for that tag. The next 10 years you have NO chance of getting a tag, so you keep putting in. So you keep putting in for that trophy hunt, and finally draw it with 16 preference points. WOOHOO! Problem is, YOU'LL NEVER DRAW THAT TAG AGAIN, CAUSE YOU CAN'T ACCUMULATE ENOUGH POINTS TO CATCH THE SYSTEM BEFORE YOU'RE TOO OLD TO HIKE INTO THE FIELD TO PUNCH THE TAG! With no point system at all, that 10 year old has the same chance you have, with 10 consecutive years of unsuccessful applications, at a cow tag, late tag, trophy tag, any tag. Truth is, with no point system at all, you can put in for that tag of a lifetime, for your entire life, and NEVER GET IT, no matter how many years in a row you get a pink slip. The bonus point system, with a % pass for max bonus points addresses the so called "dedicated hunter". You wait long enough, you'll be the only one with 16, 20, whatever points are max for that year, and you WILL get that trophy tag in the 20% pass. If you're that patient, I commend you for the intestinal fortitude to read your draw results every year. If you put in for trophy hunts every year and accept nothing less, I don't feel sorry for you for not getting drawn! Everyone else wants that tag too! It's your choice to wait for it and accept nothing less. You really want to hunt? You're a "dedicated hunter"? PUT IN FOR AN EASIER TAG TO DRAW! I put in for a specific early rifle bull tag for 12 years, first choice, nothing else on the application. I knew what I wanted, paid my dues, got lucky, and got a tag. I had that chance every year. I could have put a late tag or cow tag if I really wanted to hunt.... but made a conscious decision to wait for what I wanted, and studied how the system works. Suck it up and pay your dues, buddy, I DID. I'm now consciously sitting on more than a couple of bonus points, and hope to heck to beat out some guy with more points next year, but he still has a better shot than I do. Beats the heck out of putting in for a minimum of 12 years in Colorado for a chance at an early tag. Rant over.

I hunted on leftover tags after being unsuccessful in the first draw, nearly every year, starting at age 12, and went till I was 21 until I finally killed a deer. It wasn't for a lack of trying, I can tell you. But I hunted left over tags in different unknown areas and had to learn a new area every time. Be thankful there are youth tags at all... and that you can sign yours over if your youth hunter doesn't draw. To guarantee youth tags is to encourage those who would to live vicariously through their children. New Mexico has a second draw, open only to youth hunters unsuccessful in the first round. I think that idea has merit, but the way Arizona gets results out, your youth's hunt would be over by the time they found out they had a tag... This year plan A was our son would draw his own, plan B we'd sign one of ours over if we drew and he didn't. Luckily we all pulled a tag, but if his hunt goes south for some reason, it's highly likely one of us will still sign over a tag to him.

2 Oct WT tags for me and the wifey, and my sons FIRST tag, a Youth Any Antlered Hunt. . He's WAY more excited than we are.

Edited due to the post about everyone being wrong. Alright, taking a second look, Right, Left, Center, Total Gross still 940"... I'd still shoot the one on the right.

Any bull over 300 is a heck of a way to start elk hunting, especially for a kid. If it weren't for the long G2s he wouldn't break 3 bills... and even with them he might not net 300. That said, my 10 year old son would drop the hammer on that bull without a second thought, trust me. I'd be one proud daddy...