HUNTMUP

Momma was a Raven! Holy heck, That was funny!!!

Thanks Jim, I really needed a good laugh after the last few weeks!!! Every time I pull up this thread I can't help but laugh Younghunter, I hope you can hold out, you have a great tag and from what I hear you will put in the time and I would not expect to see a small bull with your tag on it come September!!!! I think everyone who has drawn a few a bull tags has shot atleast one small bull, it is the heat of the moment when all the stars are aligned and that bull just walks right into your arrow!! Anyways, try to hold out if you can, atleast the first week. If you want you can get my number from GTT and give me a call, I am sure you have lots of people in the "know" that are helping you but if I can help you out I would be glad to share some info. I had the tag in 2001 and I usually end up helping one of my friends out every year in that unit. I hope you kill a MONSTER!!! GTT, I will take the whole hunt off if I have to! I will not shoot a small bull until the end of the hunt. I know it will be a while before I get another tag and I am going to do my best to get a good bull. I sure hope I can get a shot at a bull like the one you have a picture of Very nice bull!!!

That is great!!! Do you know if he has any offspring that could handle a man say,, 270 lbs and a blanket!! I could not ask such a fine animal to handle me and a saddle at the same time! I would even go as far as maybe losin' a few pounds if that would make him happy Looks like you got a great friend right there!! (Still was wishin GTT could have put his tag on that one for himself) ..

In my observations of the morning session, it seemed to me some of the commissioners are kind of removed from the overall process. I have not followed or attended the meetings for many years but I will make an effort to make them from now on. It disturbed me to hear that one of the commissioners could not confidently name the unit numbers north of the river and still yet a second did not know what an over the counter archery deer tag looked like I felt that there might be 1 or 2 commissioners that are in touch with the hunters prospective and I am not very confident with the others. Still feel like they are going to run this thing like a business with dept. revenue at the forefront of the objective. Still it was nice to see the turn out and Mr. Golightly seemed to try harder at resolving the issues than the others behind the "Big Desk".. Was not overly impressed with Leonard and the using of the "Temperature" change as a reason to keep the archery deer hunts starting a week later was a joke And that BS about the archery deer hunters mostly being in the woods the first 14 days of the hunt and that it should not effect the elk hunts was sickening! Does he really think that if it stayed the way it was proposed that many hunters would not change there plans and hunt during the elk hunt with friends and family??? I am not sure who stated to the commission about the buddy hunting thing but my hats off to him!! Right on target!! I am just glad that some compromises were met and things mostly are back to what most of us expected... I still have a small sliver of hope that the AZGFD will keep things as reasonable as possible and when they do make bone headed moves that the commission will listen to the general public and try to come to a compromise. I can remember back in the early 90's that many times with enough turn out by us hunters to address the commission at meetings like today that many times things were changed back or realigned to try an accomadate what we wanted..

Rembrandt.... I am with Coues 'n' Sheep, I didn't get a warm fuzzy from your post either....... We are not " disrespecting the agency that provides us this privelege"........ We are simply disagreeing with the agency "MANAGING OUR PRIVELEGE TO HUNT AS RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE!!!"........ the wildlife of Arizona belong to all of us, the AZGFD are simply managing it for the people .... The archery deer harvest is so small, unless you look at the Kiabab, it is relatively insignificant in the idea that archery hunters are causing an impact on coues deer. I am curious, how many out of state archery hunters for javelina and deer visit our state? How many archery deer have you killed and how long did it take?? If you harvest one every year than you are better than 95% of the rest of us.. I am sure everyone on this site accepts the outcome and the odds of our "Big Game Lottery System" , As long as it is fair. The ones you hear complaining are the ones who have put in for years and have not drawn a tag when other people seem to draw quality tags quite frequently. I know people who have had archery bull tags 3 out of the last seven years while I have gone 1 tag in seven years.... Not fair for me or anyone else who puts in.. When the draw is fair, everyone will accept the odds. If someone doesn't care about the quality of the hunt and just wants to draw a tag every year, then they can move to another state where that is the rule. The rest of us will stand up and fight for fairness and the true quality of our resources. The future is probably here, I agree with that, however it will certainly become what you say even faster if we all just accept and go along with what we know is not right! We are on the same side for sure and we will all will agree to disagree but we need to stick together on this stuff or this will be just the start of worse things to come...

I agree, it has started..... This is just the beginning, the whole reasoning behind the suggestions is, lower the success rate and raise the amount of tags they can issue. I hope everyone has seen this one coming for the last few years. It really started rolling when they were toying with the idea of taking half the tags from rut hunts for archery elk and Dec. rifle coues and doubling the tags for a hunt when the success rates would be much lower. The management plan is not for hunt quality but "hunter quantity" more tags, more revenue etc..... There is no mistaking the rise in fuel, cost of living and the huge cost of running the game and fish etc. The way it looks, they can raise the total dollar intake and put more hunters in the field. I would be willing to bet that they will get less friction from the hunting public when a fair amount of people are getting tags on a regular basis, regardless of the actual hunt experience. I feel that we are the minority when it comes to action or verbal input on these matters to the AZGFD. I can assure you there are a whole lot more hunters and fishermen etc that will be happy with paying their tag fees and tromping around the woods for a weekend and maybe see a deer in the back of someones truck on the way back home.. I remember one hunting trip to 35B on an early rifle coues tag a few year back and I was floored by the amount of hunting camps I seen, welcome to the future..... OH GOD WE ARE DOOOOMED

It sure is nice to hear that some of you would hunt other units for deer during the archery elk hunt! I am one of those fortunate to have a bull tag this year and even though some will honor the gravity of getting a bull tag, most will not. You can sure bet I would do the same if I had not drawn. I know how important these tags are (7 year wait for me) it makes me feel sick to think that the "perfect hunt" is just not going to be the same I just hope that they change the dates or something. I do not understand what has happened to the AZGFD, it seems as if every year things change and mostly end up as negative changes. I too will be at the meeting on Saturday but I can't help feeling that it is a lost cause and I should just accept the fact that what ever they decide to do is just going to be the was it is...............

I too would like to show my support for what Amanda has done for every hunter in Arizona. There are a lot of peope who never post to this site that still frequently visit it, for many reasons. I for one followed the forums and looked at the amazing pictures of the hunts and scenery you guys and girls have experienced for a very looong time. I have never once witnessed anyone give a new member a hard time and have helped everyone feel welcome here, including me. I feel that this forum is one of the best internet sites out there if not the best!!! Thanks Amanda for providing so many of us so much enjoyment and knowledge. As far as I am concerned everyone on this site are truly great people and should be proud to be apart of this exceptional family! Expert on coues? heck Amanda, I don't think I have even seen a coues as big as some of the ones you have killed!! If I ever needed any advice I sure wouldn't hesitate listening to your experience! PS.. That Scotch dude,,,, does he kinda look like Steve Martin

Thanks monstercoues for not beating me up!! Sometimes I get a little carried away and I probably should have taken a deep breath and then posted. The last thing I would want is to be apart of a division of members and ther opinions and I do agree with you that we should all stick together and go to the meetings to atleast be heard.. I don't want to argue either, I hope I can finally meet some of you guys on the 21st!!

Wetmule, I don't think you could have driven home a point better that I think alot of people overlook. If a vast majority of hunters just wanted to go hunting and didn't really put a lot of worth in the quality of the hunt or the game itself, the elk units and deer units with a very low percentage draw rates would not see year after year of mass amounts of applicants for them and the hunts with high draw rates would go down accordingly. If tags were removed from high hunter success rate hunts and moved to hunts with a low success rate, you could add more tags to achieve the same results.. If you apply this to just elk hunts across the board rifle, archery, muzzleloader etc one could assume that an increase in tags by say 2,100 permits, would put the dollar total in excess of a quarter of a million dollars. Not to mention the interest it accrues even on a short term deposit etc. Would that still be considered "noodling"? I will not give up hope on the fact that the AZGFD will do the right thing for both the residents of Arizona and the wildlife that inhabit it. Especially if they listen to the hunting residents (until they prove me wrong). In the past I have been upset with many things that were proposed as many of you have but I guess in the end I can't remember anything so important to us that has not been fixed or changed. I do not mind paying more for tags and or license fees if that it what the Dept needs. But I feel that sooner or later everyone will have to come to realize that we are one of the fastest growing states in the country and with that growth comes more and more hunters. How many of the members of this site are natives? Everyone who resides in Arizona deserves a fair and reasonable opportunity to engage in this sport that to so many of is more than just a pastime.. The AZGFD has to juggle opportunity, quality and the cost of maintaining the best hunting in the country and try to keep everybody happy, not an easy task.... My main gripe is the overlapping deer / elk dates and I am sure after the turn out on the 21st, they wil be changed back, I hope.. Thank you Jim for allowing us to blow off some steam!! An I promise to not say another negative word until the 21st

Easy monstercoues, First off the commision can change the amount of tags in any given unit as they deem fit (more tags generate more revenue without a price change). The price increase is what took two years or whatever it was to be approved. I realize the Wildlife Managers (WM'S) pay is not as high as some fields of work but the pay is not that bad either if you stick with the dept. Everyone picks their own path and everyone that I know in the dept. is not there primarily for the money anyway. I also do not think that anyone on here is bashing the WM'S just the commission and or the process of how things seem to work. I appreciate all the effort and true passion that the WM'S have for the wildlife of Arizona and I truly think they have us hunters high on the list when it comes to what we want. As far as increased tags the WM'S submit a report with many items detailed such as range conditions, fawn ratios etc. and a recomendation for any changes. Each unit based on many factors dictates the carrying capacity or amount of animals the area can sustain. Lower hunt success (and there are exceptions) usually ends up with a higher post-hunt population count. This in turn most likely will lead to more tags during the next years hunts to bring the animals back into check to keep the overall units carrying capacity in check. Taking tags from a high hunter success rate hunt and moving them to a time when the anticipaited hunt success will be lower also enables you to greatly increase the amount of tags, sometimes by double or more. Increasing tags does not need legislation to pass, however rate increases involving residents from another state and ours does. I could go on for hrs and not all of my comments can be validated and some might be completely 180 degrees the wrong way, just a small ranting on your post.

IHunt2live, You are correct in assuming the elk get pushed around during the archery deer hunt. The difference is that during an overlap of the hunts there would be an increase in conflicts over tanks etc. Most deer hunters do not hunt the full day either and in the morning and the afternoons the traffic in the woods would be high. Just this last year in unit 7W I hunted the previous 7 days before the elk hunt started (yes Monday through Thursday too) as I did not even get a deer tag last year and I pulled out of camp on openning morning of the elk hunt. During the week in the middle of the day I did not see very much pressure or traffic, however the mornings and afternoons were terrible. There were ALOT of people driving the roads with vehicles and ATV's and most were very unethical and did not care about anybody else but themselves. The weekend was way worse!!! Keep in mind 7W is not the most popular archery deer unit, across the highway in 7E it was much, much worse. I am not grouping all archery deer hunters in with the idiots I seen last year, I am usually one of the ones out there chasing the deer in August and September and I know most of us care about and respect other people while hunting. In the case of the elk, the pressure from earlier hunts is unavoidable and accepted as being the norm for many years, it will be the bodies in the field and the traffic from hunters on the road that will hurt the elk hunt. I also agree the best idea would be to start the deer hunt earlier and let it run the normal amount of time and end before the elk hunt starts. Limiting the deer hunters to those who hold valid archery elk tags in that unit would be acceptable ONLY if they do not change the dates. I for one would not hunt in any areas where there is an elk hunt going on if I did not have a tag, I know of quite a few areas where there is not any elk that I can chase the deer. I know that is not fair or reasonable for someone who lives in Flagstaff or Payson etc, still the best option is to change the dates to ensure everyone has a fair chance without being over harrassed or frustrated over the amount of people in the woods. I just hope it changes to make it fair for everyone.

Actually I did get a tag.. First elk tag in seven years (I put in archery only and not in units 8,9,10 or any of the better units in the White Mountains).. I do not want to decrease anyones opportunity to hunt, lord knows we have enough problems getting out as is but overlapping the elk/deer hunts is not the answer. We both agreed on moving the dates back too (read my posts). I do not want anyone to suffer due to conflict of seasons and I would have had the same feelings last year and the year before and so on when I did not get a tag. I would still stand up and fight for what is right and fair for everyone. The vast majority of us who put in for elk year after year usually end up without a tag. I have only had 3 tags for elk counting this year since 1986... I spent the last seven days of archery deer last year hunting around Flagstaff and I pride myself on trying to be as ethical and respectful of others hunts as possible and the last thing I would want would be to hurt your chances of harvesting an elk if you had a tag.... And believe me there is going to be problems... You will also have to contend with all the out of state hunters that will be chasing deer as well. I watched two guys from California last year tear across a meadow with a lifted powerstroke trying to chase the deer I was stalking towards his buddies There is a solution to the problem, change the dates....... No sour feelings bobbyo

First off I would like to say thank you Jim for jumping in. I know how passionate us hunters can be about issues and sometimes we get a little out of control. I have always supported the G&F and especially the Biologists/ Wildlife Managers and yes I have hunted Colorado multiple times for elk over the years. These trips into Colorado have all been on public / national forest lands and self guided. I have been in the Grand Mesa, West Elk and the Weminuche areas and have never even come close to having the type of quality outdoor experience as I do in my home state. I am proud to say that I live and hunt in Arizona and all of us owe that to the G&F Dept and it employees. There is only so much "opportunity" to go around, simply the best we can do is give as much as we can to allow people more chances at hunting and being in the outdoors as possible but at what cost? I understand from the survey that most people at this current time put more emphasis on just being draw than actually getting a chance at a good hunt or the opprtunity to harvest an animal. If that is the case then people have come to realize that 7 to 8 out of 10 hunters will come home empty handed. I have not drawn an archery bull tag for seven years and this was my lucky year and I got my second choice (tag #5?, not sure how that worked..) Last year I hunted around Flagstaff for archery deer the 5 days prior to the elk hunt start and the traffic was heavy. It will definitely effect the quality and the outcome of the archery elk seasons. There will be many altercations between hunters due to conflict of interest. I usually do not sit a water hole while hunting elk but I know a lot of hunters do, especially the older hunters and the ones who may not physically be able to chase elk cross country and I especially feel sorry for them. I understand that you can not change everything and I am sure that I speak for many of us on this forum when I say thank you for your input and hearing our issues. Sometimes it is nice to be acknowledged.... See you on the 21st....

WOW bobbyo ...... DotShot.... Cmon guys sounds like somebody didn't get an Elk tag this year........................ Are you serious???? How is overlapping the hunt going to improve the quality of the deer hunt????? The wanning monsoon You guys are missing the whole point. The deer season has always been fine before, why the changes now? The response to this is to band together and do the right thing for everyone, and as far as deer hunters in the woods during the elk hunt.... Maybe not a big deal in say... unit 36B.. I've lived in Arizona my whole life and been an archery hunter for many, many years.. Have you ever hunted unit 7 during the arhery deer hunt??? It is a circus not to mention any unit surrounding the Flagstaff and Payson areas... We are talking a 7 day overlap during the best time to hunt. Maybe your views would be different if you drew a tag

I think I am going to throw up!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am all for archery deer hunting don't get me wrong. I do not see any problem with the hunts overlapping with the elk hunts as long as you are not allowed to hunt in any unit where an archery elk hunt is in progress unless you hold a valid tag for elk in that unit. The hunt dates have always been fine when they did not overlap before, the deer are not in rut in September last time I checked so how does this help anybody????????? Every one needs to follow the like thread in the "Political section"

Sorry I still have one more comment....... We need to realize that when the AZGFD say they are focusing on "increased opportunity" this means they are looking for more revenue for the dept. Don't kid yourself that they have your best interest at heart. Think before you answer this one.................... Do you want to go hunting every 3 years for a bull elk in archery season and have to contend with a @#$%% of archery deer hunters and a poor (in the teens if your lucky) chance of even harvesting a bull or would you rather wait a few more years at a chance at a truly "quality hunt" ???????? I am serious when I say everyone needs to really think this whole thing out. If we do not stand together we will all fall no matter what your individual views are and we will ALL suffer.................

I am all for increased opportunity however by overlapping the archery deer / archery elk hunts will only decrease the overall hunter success rates for elk and I am sure as most would agree lead to a less than exciting hunt. In turn the lower success rates will allow the department to issue more elk tags for the archery hunts for sure. Please keep in mind that "more" tags only means a less than quality hunt. No more archery bull hunts with a success rate of 30% or much more in certain units. The game and fish department allocate the tags based on the carrying capacity of any given unit and have a very good idea of how many animals it wants to harvest to maintain long term goals. For those of you who want more opportunity by increasing tags just take a look at Colorado for example. Many elk units in Colorado are over the counter unlimited tags and for those of us that have hunted there (myself 3 times) the quality of the hunt, animals and the opportunity for the average guy to harvest an animal let alone a mature animal are very, very slim...... All that is going to be accomplished by this is more tags and thus more money for the game and fish (maybe to help pay for there new facility at Ben Avery???). I have always had confidence in the AZGFD unit the last couple of years and if you take a look at the suggestions and the actions evrything leads to less tags in the higher success rate hunts ie: December coues hunts, archery and trophy bull hunts and more tags in times when the anticipated success is very low. By moving in this direction they can issue many more tags to harvest the same amount of animals. I truly believe if the hunt structures as proposed passes it will only be the start of worse things to come... I sure hope that everyone tries to be at the meeting on the 21st to show your feelings. I will be there for sure and if it still stays after everyones input against the dates, I for one will have lost all hope for the future of our hunts and for those of our children...................

I am sure glad that that truck ended up in your hands and it brought you many years of freedom. I invested alot of time in the motor and drive train and to say that it was fast would not do it justice. I remember more than once lookin in the rear view mirror at a 454SS "2wd" trying to keep up I have been meaning to give you a call but it seems like I am always busy at work and have been out of state quite a bit lately. I did however get a Bull elk archery tag this year PM me when you have time I would like to pick your brain a little. I am planning on sponsoring another table this year at the RMEF banquet and if I do not see you before then I am sure I will at the dinner. Oh and congrats on your bull last year!! every bow harvest is truly a great accomplishment and I know you invested a lot of time in that hunt!!

Hey GTT, I remember when you shot that very nice whitetail way back in the day!! Just in case you are not sure who is responding to your pictures, I just thought I should let you know I was worried when I sold you my baby I was just hoping this young kid would not kill himself in that screamin fast Chevy!! It sure is nice to see your pictures I still have not shot a lion yet!!!

I'm with you Hawkeye! I remember someone saying that you could buy the draw run from the AZ G&F. I wonder if it shows what ranking everyone was at when the draw was run maybe that would show that it is not a fair lottery. I am not totally sure that the G&F is responsible for the mistakes though, I think that the out of state co. that processed the draw screwed it up. I can't help to think that if I drew tag number 5 on my second choice archery bull that maybe they ran my second choice first I don't mind playing the odds and take whatever I do or do not get just as long as it is unbiased and fair!!!!!!!!!! Anyway you have to be happy that you and four wife drew the same tag!!! Congratulations and I hope you both get a monster!!

I agree about the "fishy" draw. I had seven points for elk and drew my second choice unit. Not that strange however, My first choice was 7W and my second choice was 7E.... I was tag number 5 for my second choice I just can't figure out how they filled all 150 archery bull tags in 7W before they filled 4 archery bull tags in 7E Both units were fairly close in draw rates and I figured that if I did not get my first choice, I was lucky to get a tag at all for my second choice let alone tag number 5! I assumed I would be tag number 100 to 120. Another thing to think about is that up to 4 people can apply on one application so potentially all 7W archery bull tags were issued before they came across 1 application for 7E archery bull. Maybe I am way off assuming that the tag numbers indicate somewhat of where you were in ranking of the "random" assigned numbers. Seems on another thread I recall someone saying he drew a unit 4B archery bull tag and that was his third choice? Don't get me wrong I am not complaining and I am grateful to have my tag but just don't feel like the draw is fair and maybe not even a lottery draw at all. By the way My buddy from Oregon drew another 6B archery tag this year, that makes 2 years in a row for him, sure does not seem fair for those that have 5 ++ bonus points and din't even draw

Congratulations and good luck to all that drew a tag(s)!!!!! I finall drew a 7E archery bull tag (whishin it was 7W) and I now have 14 bonus pts for antelope. Hey all lucky 7W bull tags push some over the road to me

AJOHUNTER, Love the tag line. That was a great movie!! No hits on my card yet. With 13 Speed Goat points and 7 for Elk, I don't know if I can handle the prospect of another year of "you were not drawn for..." To those that drew tags, congratulations and good luck!!