300RUM

I was looking around trying to educate myself and found this on Accurate Shooter, authored by Frank Green of Bartelin Barrels. Thought others here may find it interesting. O.K. Tightneck this one is for you. It's a long one!!! I might bounce around a bit so bear with me. I will be talking about barrel life and accuracy both because they go hand in hand. That's why I will probably be bouncing around or have things in no particular order. I'm not a english major! The number of grooves? To me the number of grooves has no real bearing on accuracy or barrel life! Some say if you want hard core accuracy go with conventional rifling vs. 5R type rifled barrel. Some say the 5R's copper foul less. I say B.S. I've seen 5R's copper foul with the best of them. Some say the 5R barrels will seal the bullet better in the bore and you get more velocity out of them. Again I haven't seen this either. Some say the 5R barrels don't leave a burr on the bullet and the bullet will drift less in the wind. I haven't seen this either. 99% of the barrels we make for short range bench shooters are 4 groove conventional rifling. Across the course high powers shooters seems to be a 50/50 split. Long range prone shooters seem to prefer the 5R. Long range bench shooters I would say the preference is towards conventional rifling. I've got a conventional 5 groove,not 5R) on my short range bench gun. Wanted to try it! The gun hammers! I've shot 5R and a 4 groove in prone matches out to a 1000 and even compared both in the same match,two man team) and saw no difference. Our team came in 3rd for points. Same chambers, same loads! Both guns we're chambered in 6mm Rem. with a custom throat. In that match we shot 107 Sierra's,I've shot mostly Berger 105's after that). Both are 1-8 twist barrels. Velocity difference between the two was 30fps. The loads average 3155fps. between the two. We didn't use anymore or any less windage on one gun vs. the other! Some will say the odd number of grooves will help with jacket failure? This is because the odd number of grooves vs. an even groove barrel will distort or upset the bullet jacket less. This is because the lands don't directly oppose one another. I believe this has some merit but it is hard to prove. Read the next paragraph though. I compared a 5R and a 4 groove in the match at a 1000yds. the match I mentioned earlier. The 4 groove was the second barrel in a row that I had when I was at Krieger that would blow up one manufacturers bullets but not another. I stopped shooting them for awhile because I was to scared to use them.,Who the bullet makers are is not important. I still shoot they're bullets!) So I wanted to see what would happen. Bought some more of those one makers bullets and guess what. No failures in either one. So in away that kinda blows the theory!? Both barrels we're made to the same bore and groove size and same twist. Same chamber and the same loads shot thru them. Why didn't the one barrel blow up anymore of the one makers bullets anymore? I chalk it up to a different lot. Maybe the lot of bullets I got had problems with the cores or jackets? Hard to say! Barrel life? Again I don't see a difference in the number of grooves effecting barrel life etc...One barrel maker who is making 3 groove barrels the last I heard was claiming they last longer. This might be true in a button rifled barrel because of the wider lands. On average I don't see a button rifled barrel lasting as long as a cut rifled barrel. Why? Because the button rifling operation work hardens the bore. I'm not saying a button barrel will not go a long time or a cut barrel will not burn out early as I've seen both. It's just what we see as an average. Can I put a number on it. Not really but if I had to I would say about 20% longer on cut barrels but this all depends on the accuracy level each individual shooter wants/needs, how good they are not to mention a whole ton of other variables that effect barrel life. One guy shoots a powder that is more abrasive than another is an example. Not to mention the steel from one lot to another even if you are getting the steel from the same supplier can be a variable. The list doesn't stop almost. When we we're at Krieger back around 2000 Tracy made the tooling for a 3 groove .30cal. palma barrels and we made a couple for Mid Tompkins. Mid told me that accuracy wise out to 800 yards they shot just fine compared to the 4 grooves. The only problem was both barrels we're a flat 100-150fps. slower than the 4 grooves so they wouldn't cut it at 900 and a 1000 yards. due to the velocity loss. Why? Maybe because of the wider lands? Different lot of steel? Hard to say sometimes but that is my guess the wider lands. Also at Krieger right before we we're gone from they're we made a cut rifled barrel and a button rifled barrel in .224 cal. for John. He chambered them up in .22-250 and put them on some prairie dog guns that he took out west. They we're made out of the same lot of steel and got the same loads thru them. Accruacy wise both shot great but the button barrel was exhibiting more wear with the same round count on both. Both barrels we're being shot in the same conditions and the same loads we're being put thru them. I've seen 2 groove, 3's, 4's, 5's,5R's) and 6 groove barrels all shoot excellent. So again I say there is no difference in in accuracy or barrel life but when you compare one or the other you should be comparing/testing the barrels made out of the same lot of steel and being made from the same maker and being shot in the same conditions. This is the only way to get good results but who has the time, money etc...to do this? This is the hard part. Check out the thread records fall at Sacramento. Craig St.Clair shot a 1-8 twist, 4 groove, .237 bore at 600 yards chambered in 6BR. He won 7 out of 8 awards and has 2 pending records. It was smithed by Stu Harvey. In the end to me it is more of the quality of the barrel blank. The straighter the barrel, the more uniform the bore and groove dimensions, and the more uniform the twist the more forgiving the barrel is going to be. The nicer the finish inside the less fouling it will have etc.... Keep in mind there are alot of variables beyond the barrel maker and gunsmiths control and even the shooters control. What chamber reamer was used. Different lot of bullets from one to the next, different lot of powders, primers, cases etc...all effect different things. Why is one barrel faster than one vs. another. Why does one barrel that looks glassy smooth foul bad and it shouldn't etc................ Talk to you all later, Frank @ Bartlein Barrels frankgreen, Jan 10, 2008

Awesome advice on loading the 7mm-08 AI with a long COAL. I have a 7.4 lb scoped lightweight 7-mm-08 AI rifle with a Wyatt's extended mag and the ejection port milled longer and the throat cut longer. 140 NBT at 2950 from a 20" barrel. My experience with this rifle made me choose to re-chamber the .308 to 7mm-08 AI as well. It is an entirely different gun, a Remington 700 LTR from the Tactical / LE side of Remington. Basically a baby PSS. The gun has a HS stock and 20 inch barrel. I intend to go to a 24 inch. I am looking for a quality stainless barrel that can be ordered from the manufacture with spiral fluting. Previously I have always used 6 groove but I am thinking of trying something new. The two options I came up with were Bartlein and Lilja. I am leaning toward Lilja because of a shorter delivery time. I am open to suggestions.

My experience with the Remington brass is similar. It will go over 10 firings with no sign of head separation. I eventually start loosing them to loose primer pockets.

It will be interesting to see if the deal actually goes through this time. As a consumer I hope it does not. I'm happy with 20% gain at 57.25. If the deal falls apart again there's a good chance to price will drop rapidly.

Yes, you can. After leaving so much money at Cabela's there is something rather satisfying about it. On 2-28 I bought Cabela's stock at 46.93 per share. On 4-21 I sold it for 57.25 per share. Basically, in 2 months I made a 20% profit from Cabela's. I only wish I could do it more often.

Congratulations to Hunter on his first tom. Was that 23? How was the gobbling? I'm taking a veteran up to 4B next weekend with Hunts For Heroes.

I ran into one in the same area about 10 years ago.

My hunting partner has a Ruger M77 that broke the same way. It was the result of tumbling down Picketpost Mtn. after trying to climb up and get a shot at a ram. We still have not checked if the barrel is bent.

At one time USMC snipers carried pre 64 model 70s in 30-06. Carlos Hathcock carried one. When Winchester made changes to the model 70 after 64 the Marines switch to the Remington 700.

It can be difficult to decide what to do with a gun left to you by someone who has passed away. In this case I believe Lance has the best answer, It was the fathers in law's hunting rifle, overhaul it and turn it into a much improved hunting rifle. One that will actually be taken on hunts rather than sit at home. Factory or custom it is still the father in law's rifle and he will be remembered when it is carried. As for "don't touch it", "leave it as is" feeling some have expressed I believe I have a gun that falls into that class. It is a Model 67 Winchester that was my grandfathers. It was built before serial numbers were required and does not have one. I found a site with information about minor changes to the rifle during it's production and was able to date it to around 1936 - 1937. This is actually the first gun I ever fired when I was about 5 or 6 years old. It is a single shot and you also have to pull the striker back manually each time to fire. That seems to make you plan your shot more carefully than if you are using a semi-auto. Sometimes I will take it squirrel or rabbit hunting instead of my 10-22. It brings back old memories of my childhood and my grandfather. Although I may believe this one should be left "as is" Lance is probably thinking "Hey, you could put a nice scope on it".

I think you are talking about getting a replacement tag from game & fish if you lost one? I believe you have to sign an affidavit that your previous tag was lost. In NM your tag is a computer printed piece of paper. There is nothing to stop you from printing as many as you want to without G&F knowing about it.

I thought that was a little odd the first time I saw it. What was the stop me from printing out 3 tags? If unethical Hunters create a need to go to a mailed tag system it should not be that big of a deal. The NM draw system is very efficient, AZ needs a lot of help in that department.

Donate your tag to Hunts For Heroes. You will get your points back and a disabled vet will get the tag.

Just a guess, but I think if you were able to hand that rifle back to your father in law and let him take it out and shoot it there would be a big smile on his face.

.300 RUM brass is more common. Run it through your 7 RUM sizing die and you have 7 RUM brass.

From Nosler's point of view not all the pros of designing a new round relate to ballistics. Think marketing. If the cartridge is SAAMI standardized any manufacture can load it or chamber it. It will, however, always carry the name given by it's designer. 28 NOSLER, they are getting brand recognition.

Some of the more remote areas can be found on the western boundary, along Chevelon Canyon. If you shoot something and it manages to go tumbling down into that canyon you are going to have a real bad day. I had a friend who shot a bear that managed to go over the edge and we had a very difficult time getting it out of there. Ropes, pulleys and lots of bad words, fortunately no injuries. As I was sliding down a rope, in the dark, to look for a shot bear in that canyon I believe I heard Bill Engvall say "here's your sign".

I'll add another vote for the minority opinion of 6 always.

A couple of suggestions. If the rifle is set up for you the scope may need to be re-positioned for your son to have proper eye relief. If your son has not fired the rifle before and recoil seems to be an issue reduced power loads can be loaded with H4895. You can keep increasing the charge, as the shooter gets used to the recoil, untill you get to the maximum load. HODGDON® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS For Youth Hunting, Informal Target, and Plinking __________________________________________________________________________ Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended. Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center for your caliber and bullet. Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy. This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895 is not shown. Example: 30-06 cartridge with 125 gr. Sierra SP bullet. Max load shown in the Reloading Data Center with H4895 is 53.7 grains. 53.7 X .6 = 32.2 grains. The shooter begins with this load, and may work up from there to obtain the desired velocity and accuracy for his reduced load. Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed, 913-362-9455.

Never understood why guys wouldn't wear ear protection WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY ?????

Never understood why guys wouldn't wear ear protection WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY ?????

I spent a little time trying to learn a little more about Hybrid 100V. From the Hodgdon site... Hodgdon Powder offers the largest selection of quality smokeless propellants for any reloading application. Hodgdon HYBRID 100V is the result of combining the technologies of spherical powders and extruded propellants. The chemistry of a spherical powder is combined with the geometry of an extruded propellant, creating a smooth-metering, super short granule extruded shaped propellant with high energy. HYBRID 100V has a burn speed between H4350 and H4831, yeilding superb performance in such popular calibers as 270 Winchester, 243 Winchester Super Short Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum and dozens more. On shooting and reloading sites opinions on the powder vary. Quite a few claims of increased velocity over other powders the shooter had used. A number of users do feel it may be a bit temperature sensitive while others don't. Opinions on accuracy are divided. Then, what powder does everyone agree on? Sounds like one of those "you just have to try it for yourself" deals. I'm trying to pick out 3 to 5 powders to try for 168 gr loads for the 7mm-08 AI and will probably include it. One of these years NM will not send me my money back and I will need a elk load for the rifle.

Don't feel you need to limit the 7mm-08 to 100 yards. 300 yard shots should not be a problem if your son can place the round in the vitals. Look at heavier bullets in the 168 gr range for better penetration.

No, the point of impact will shift between having the brake on and off. The 7mm-08 should have plenty of power to get the job done at shorter ranges.

Funny!!! The exact opposite for me I tried many powders when I developed the 140 gr load for my lightweight 7mm-08 AI. There were some real surprises during the testing. I'm sure the 20 inch barrel was responsible for some of them. I am getting ready to start powder testing with 168 gr bullets for an elk load. The bullets have been on the shelf for over 4 years. I normally hunt elk archery so it hasn't been a high priority. I checked the Hodgdon site for 7mm-08 data and Hybrid 100V showed the highest velocity. Interestingly, it also shows the highest velocity for 140 gr bullets in a 6.5-06. Have you tried it yet?