AZDirtyTaco

Thanks for posting this. Just listened. My takeaway, they aren't interested in people that do nothing but complain. My takeaway was that Jon Koleszar was entirely condescending toward everyone on this website and is just simply annoyed with opposing viewpoints. That's a shame from someone in his position. It was not helpful and did nothing to advance this conversation.

Nefarious - I gotta say that you're a passionate hombre! Clearly, you've dedicated yourself to our common cause and that is appreciated. The groups we are being attacked by are a special breed and it certainly appears to me at least, that you match up well my man! Lol.. And I mean zero disrespect as I say that.That approach on the streets and while confronting petitioners goes over just about as well here on this forum as it does there with those petitioners... I would encourage you do try a new cologne and few less actions on the pumper if you're going to garner support from anyone that is less than 150% in line with your take. azdirtytaco, lots of things went on behind the scenes. As I've said, I can provide you with some very pertinent information. But we have to talk offline for a bit. I can p.m. you my number. I find it very scarey when people always say "behind the Scene" and wont provide information in the general public. why is this they dont want to be called out for BS by the general public? and you wonder why HUNTERS are Leary of groups trying to take tags. CAPAZ and all of the AZ critter groups participated in a low key, behind the scenes strategy that did prove effective in throwing a significant wrench in the gears of HSUS. It wasn't some crazy Spec Op's Covert operation with a code name or anything... Was it THE key to victory??? Who knows really. But it was effective to some extent and to what extent, is a matter of personal opinion/perspective. Regardless, it did contribute to HSUS backing out. Bottom line on this one and hopefully it will help us from spinning our wheels on this topic: CAPAZ pooled funds from each of the AZ critter groups amassing $250k to retain the only remaining petitioning group (name of Co has been previously stated) which threw a solid wrinkle in the HSUS plan since there was no other company to use - better to be lucky than good, right? But CAP and all contributing parties knew this (sweet call). In addition, HSUS believed they were seeing resistance from a much larger and more importantly - better funded group (not sure which group but it has been specified). For further clarification: Lucky Breaks for CAPAZ & Co - Recent change to AZ petition law HSUS misidentified resistance group HSUS exec couldn't keep his hands, D!@* pics to himself, whatever... Stratigic Moves by CAPAZ & Co. - Non-public campaign (lead to #2 Lucky Break) Pooling funds from local organizations Knowledge of new petitioning laws and took advantage quickly

Anybody? Solid ideas end to end CatfishKev. Can you please email this to Commissioner Davis https://www.azgfd.gov/Contact5.shtml

Nefarious - I gotta say that you're a passionate hombre! Clearly, you've dedicated yourself to our common cause and that is appreciated. The groups we are being attacked by are a special breed and it certainly appears to me at least, that you match up well my man! Lol.. And I mean zero disrespect as I say that. That approach on the streets and while confronting petitioners goes over just about as well here on this forum as it does there with those petitioners... I would encourage you do try a new cologne and few less actions on the pumper if you're going to garner support from anyone that is less than 150% in line with your take.

Trophyseeker posted this a couple of days ago - https://nimrodsociety.org/about-us/ I spoke with Bob Radocy for about an hour yesterday morning and absolutely loved what he had to say. I asked if he and their group would be willing to help us here in AZ and he did not hesitate to follow-up with an offer to make trip out. I have passed his information along to a few others for review and understand his/their info will also be forwarded to the commissioner. My ask for each of you; is to please vet these Nimrod guys out and see what you can come up with, pro's and con's. It's important to understand that these options like what the Nimrod Society propose (which are 100% in-line with many of our ideas), take time and legislative action to pass. That is not going to happen within in the short term and we're realistically looking at a 12-24mo process. The benefits of going this route clearly outline a long-term and sustainable solution that places the onus on the sportsman to generate the revenue needed. I 100% support this approach and believe this is one we can all get behind. On to CAP - I am no longer of the opinion that these "folks" (yah I said it... lol) are the evil enemy and that this is truly a "tag grab". This group has worked with all of the AZ critter groups and has been trusted by those very same groups with large sums of their annual project money to fight the HSUS initiative. I think this is important to keep in mind. If you support the members of ADA, AAA, AEA, etc.. THEY ALL supported CAP. Not saying that's fail-safe logic by no means, but worth considering. While we certainly don't agree on the vehicle we want to take to the party, we do all want to go to the same party... Know what I mean??? The question that looms for me is how quickly do we need move? If we move in haste, do we stand to lose our way by selling our wildlife to the highest bidders? If we move too slowly, do we set ourselves years behind while working 10 times harder to undue what a group like HSUS or PETA pushes through while we're still tying to make up our mind? I don't know honestly. I'm too new to this. But I, like many of you, am committed to figuring it out together. My guess... it's going to be somewhere in-between all together, and that includes working with CAP on something nobody is 100% happy with for now.

This is an awesome find! Nice work trophyseeker! Has anyone reached out to this organization by chance?

The ADA guy was the one that looked pretty rough and smelled REALLY bad... Sorry. Couldn't let that opportunity slide by. LOL

idgaf - The main obstacle at this stage is how those funds can be used. If AZGFD generates them in any form, through the current donation channel (as I suggested), stamps, you name it... they will earmark those funds to a general fund. This concept sounds great until we consider what that really means - new trucks, larger PC monitors, fancier decorations, blah blah blah. Isn't that just more of the same ol' lame ol' government gross mismanagement of funds? Who's in for that? Not me. SO, this is where it gets interesting and where the conversation has actually turned a corner. As mentioned in my previous post and to your point as well; yes many of the members at the meeting did not give you the impression that they had much intention of working hard to come up with alternatives. BUT, this is where WE come in to play. These folks are clearly a bit tired of only hearing from hunters when someone sounds the bell and the mob comes running. The very same people who go back to their lives and leave these evil board members to go back to doing all of dirty work we reap rewards from i.e. water tanks being repaired, water hauled, fences mended, and on and on... This group is clearly not getting younger (no offense intended here) and there is NOBODY in line to help fill the void. The more I understand, the less I believe it's about the tags. I could be flat ars wrong. But I don't think so. These people need help, they need fresh ideas, and they need your help to hound the H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS out of the AZGFD reps to figure out a different way to get this job done. If we don't ride this out and get our hands dirty, they are going to get the job done the best they see fit AND we will just have to live with the results.

Under the proposed structure of AZGFD gifting tags, CAP generating funds through the raffle/auctions, and CAP then donating that money back to AZGFD - those donated funds go to a specified fund that is not accessible to any AZGFD departments. These funds would only be used for the purpose of education. It's my understanding that this handling of the funds was one of the major objectives for all of the contributing parties, including CAP. I believe we are most all in favor of this strategy. The question on the table today and maybe someone here can contribute to the solution; can this be accomplished w/o the use of tags??? This question was brought back to all involved, is being explored, and will be discussed at further length on Monday. This "gifting" process is the key to why those donated funds would not be entered in to the general pool of funds available to AZGFD for use as maintenance, improved facilities, new trucks, etc... At this time, it's my hope that we can come up with alternatives for generating these education funds for their stated purposes, and this is the kicker - without sending those funds to the general pool. Disclaimer: I am WAY new to all of this and am doing my best to learn on a quick curve. I am explaining this all to the best of my ability and hope that I am not hurting nor confusing anyone by relaying this information. I have zero ego on this topic, and anyone, please correct this information as needed.

I want to take a moment to regress a bit from my previous opinions and statements related to agendas, motives, etc... when it comes to all involved. Much of our concerns I believe are due to a direct result of lack of knowledge to how funds can be generated, where they are held, how many departments have access to said funds, etc. As I learn more about the rules, regulations, laws to which AZGFD is bound, I am seeing the "why" behind the proposal of allocating tags specifically. I am not saying that I now, or even remotely, support auction or raffling of tags, but I am starting to at least see where these folks are coming from and am softening up to my previous view points. I'm not going to journal it all out at this time... Please come to the meeting on Monday is all I can say. I suppose it's only a matter of perspective, but I didn't see the meeting as heated as some describe. Not saying you're wrong in your view point. I'm just used to opinionated and passionate conversations in similar settings, so it doesn't resonate with me as it might with others.

I would encourage everyone that can make on Monday, make it happen. All of these folks do good things every day for our community, wildlife protection, conservation, and on and on... but after years and years of very little support from our community, a sense of entitlement has crept in. They feel they know what's best and have made decisions on our behalf, just like they do every other day of the week. It's only when something comes up that really gets people going (like auctioning tags), they hear boo from the crowd. So, I get that piece. These groups did do a lot more than what they are getting credit for when it came to the HSUS fight. Each of the critter groups donated large sums of their annual budgets and spent countless hours working behind the scenes (including CAP) and for this they do deserve our thanks. BUT our thanks does not need to be given in the form of support of tags. Take away the debate over tags, and we are all standing shoulder to shoulder as one, on every other topic. It's up to CAP and the contributing groups to decide between now and Mondays meeting whether or not they are married to auction tags (their constituents) or the common cause. We'll find out soon enough.

I'll be there again on Monday. I don't like the fact that they did not have one single other idea on the table to raise funds outside of the tags. That alone tells me they are not on the up and up. These folks on the boards have done a lot of good for all of us and have "carried the torch" for many years, and even decades, as mentioned by Flatlander. But this whole thing with the tags is straight FISHY and I can't tell you who's not in on it at this stage. The support from each of the organization members was unwavering. Their words did not match their body language, facial expressions, and demeanor while attempting to appear open to other suggestions. I would like to see the money generated between stamps and/or an internal campaign to obtain additional donations through the already existing channel while paying for your application fees. Going straight to auction tags is purely bogus and an agenda being pushed in my opinion. I did spend some time speaking with Dave with ADA aside from the meeting and liked what he had to say in general. He was the only one I felt cared enough to make a little sense out of it all and offer some insight, which I did find very helpful. I felt that was a productive conversation and look forward on building on it.

Event: MONTHLY BOARD MEETING THIS MONTH IS AT BASS PRO IN MESA: Q&A REGARDING CONSERVE AND PROTECT Details APR 17 CONSERVE AND PROTECT Q&A Pulled from ADA Events Calendar. There is a countdown timer on the event. I don't see the official start time called out on the calendar nor on their Facebook page. Can someone please confirm the start time? Looks like 6:30. https://azdeer.org/events-calendar/

So the battle was won by retaining the _____ petition company that guarantees victory to anyone they fight for? I vote we find out what their price tag is, generate a couple bucks with car washes and get back to Habimaps.

I am in the process of putting together some notes and a list of questions to take to tonight's meeting. As I'm pretty sure several of you are doing the same, would any you be interested in working together on a combined list to help us with a more organized approach? We can share our list with everyone and all involved would still present their line of questions. PM me please if you are in.

I like the expectations being laid down in advance. Good call. Perhaps you can post an agenda that holds true to the purpose of the ADA meeting and allows business to be conducted as usual before branching in to the CAP topics? This in my opinion would allow you as ADA members to step out of the role as facilitators, which would also be effective in not blending ADA with CAP. In other words; not appearing to stand side by side with CAP, which effectively throws your organization into holding a formal position on this matter. Outside of individual opinions, I haven't seen anything that tells me your organizations have joined forces. Please feel free to correct me on this if I've missed anything... ADA is stepping to the plate and offering a forum for this conversation to continue in a public setting. That's cool and I thank you.

That's WAY South for me my man. I've wanted to get down and hunt that country for a long time, but it's a haul. Good luck!

One other thing I would like to comment on as it's been thrown about by several members: All of the members whom have taken the time to make their opinions known ARE doing something. Everyone is contributing to the questions and concerns many of us have. These questions, answers, suggestions, are all being tallied up and used by us all for informational purposes. Don't any of you let someone here tell you to "get off your ars and do something about it", and let that make you feel like you are lesser than them! We have 25 pages of brainstorming, Q&A, and ideation, which is no different than any other start to a project. What we have is a membership group that is not unlike the C&PAZ and we are collectively holding a meeting on our time. Time in between work, emails, conference calls, after coaching football, baseball, family commitments, as we settle down from the day at 10:30pm, whatever... Just because we're not sitting on a conference call, in a meeting room, etc. doesn't minimize our efforts and opinions! We are taking action by establishing our opinions, discussing alternatives, and determining the next steps to be taken NOW THAT WE ARE ALL AWARE OF THESE MEETINGS BEING HELD AND WHAT IS TRYING TO BE DONE. I would like to thank Jay Scott for being the one to bring this all to light. Regardless of where you stand, you have done us all a great service by stepping up and getting this information out. Thank you. This is a modern day meeting being held by a group of members no different than any list of board members from any organization. Don't let anyone on here make you feel like you're not doing enough or shouldn't have an opinion because of _____. That's BS.

I will be there. Skipping out on my sons baseball practice to make it happen and recruiting friends as we speak.

I'm FINALLY hours and hours deep into this deal between Jay's podcasts, 23 pages of reading, mulling through multiple websites, and feel like I can have an opinion here... but this is also my understanding. There have been a number of points raised throughout and this is one that I have not picked up on a single response to support otherwise. Has this question been answered anywhere yet?

C&PAZ/SFW brought one idea to the table which essentially was the initiative that was passionately shot down in 2012 and one that is generally seen as a complete flop in Utah (also under investigation). I'm sure these guys burned the midnight oil and got into some heated debates just like this one while grinding over option after option of raising money, all before coming back to the same 2012 initiative in a new dress... Those of you bashing members of this forum for being idiots, not getting off their ___ , etc... seem to be the only people here that are resorting to slander and are bringing the debate down to your level. Please knock it off. When you come to the table with a single idea to any challenge and that one idea is not fair to all - this what you get. Do those of you in support really feel this proposal is the ONLY and/or BEST option out there? How is it that a group of dedicated sportsman with the support of an affluent base, can only come up with a single proposed solution? Flatlander in particular has thrown down a slew of great suggestions that should come long before allocating tags to a special interest group. If C&PAZ/SFW worked as hard to pursue their mission statements as they do obtaining premium tags, we wouldn't be having this conversation. They do not represent us. They represent the few. We need to put words to action and rally up those that have the future hunting at the heart of their decisions to get involved. I encourage and ask any of the board members that are truly vested in the best interest of hunting, conservation, preservation, too: Separate yourselves from these C&PAZ/SFW individuals whom are not trusted and have a track record of selfish motivation. Hit the reset button and help organize a team of people w/o individual agendas. There are plenty of us out here and we just need some help getting the wheels off the ground.

Hope you have as much coffee as you do Mountain House to process it all... lol. Way to get ahead of the game by knocking out the little stuff in advance!

Was it the panties that gave it away?

I've heard stories of some water holes having a dozen or more cameras on them. Seen a camera or two in some pretty remote places and always felt like it took away small piece of that feeling of being alone in the wilderness. I've considered using them and am certain they would help, but always come back to the feeling I get when I stumble across one and have chosen not to. I've also been tempted a few times to do some reorganization of the vegetation in the area when I come across one, but have opted to offer up some rather awkward pics of my tan lines instead... I personally like discovering a cool buck during a still hunt or while glassing and don't feel like it would be as rewarding to do so by cam. I think it will be a good thing to not have as many people in as many places at once by having cameras spread in every corner of the state year round.

Stop being so judgmental y'all. If you are doing everything in your heart to better this scenario, you're doing ok in my book - or roughly 3 hours of being eaten one small bite at a time -