hawkeye

TLH I agree with some of the things you said but I strongly disagree with some also. You took only parts of what I said to react to. I didn't say I didn't trust Government. I said I didn't trust government without any oversight. I should add I don't trust government when there is large amounts of money being dealt with. You also said that you have hunted deer, Elk, antelope, and turkey. Well in my whole life of putting in for antelope I have never drawn a tag. I have only drawn one spring turkey tag in my life. You work with the GFD, so I can understand you being quick to defend them but in my 51 years of living in Arizona I have felt abandon by the whole system. A lot of people on the inside feel the same as you. But there are a lot that have some of the opinions I do. I saw a lot of them at some meetings when the whole subject we were dealing with was changed when the topic started getting ugly. Please tell me why you don't think that the preference points would work in Arizona. If the GFD is doing everything on the up and up then why is everything so secret when it comes to the actual act of the draw. This is my biggest problem with the present system. That and the wording on the questionair sent out to the hunters. They were worded so that only one of two outcomes could happen. Why then didn't they ask the very question every body has told me they would have liked to been asked. "Would you like to move almost all of the december tags to november and add some more to november. I know, you know and the hunters of arizona know what the outcome of that question was, and they ignored it. Ignoring the ADA survey and putting the phony one out that they did, was the ultimate betrayal. It has only been in the last couple of years I have become so bitter with the GFD. Also after hunting in Colorado and seeing how they treat their hunters. The draw seems more fair and the way they listen to input. I feel the only thing the AZGFD sees is money.

Hey younghunter great pics. Looks like you guys had a great time. Here's my November deer. Just a two pointer. I shot him at 500 yards accross a steep cliffy canyon at 5:30 pm just before dark. It took us until 7:00 pm to reach him. After boning him out, caping and a long pack-out we reached the truck at midnight. It was a total dark night without any moon. What a job. Oops when he fell in the rocks the eye guard broke.

You said it in a nut shell. They are running it like a business. It is a government service. It is supposed to meet the needs of the wildlife and people of Arizona. That is why I have a problem with the unfair distrubution of tags. If it were a business then I shouldn't have any say in how it works. But the big difference is that you and I pay the price of "running it like a business" They are not suppose to profit off of the taxpayers. This whole thing started with the way the GFD pushes their weight around, and abuses its power. I never said anything about wanting more tags and more quality hunts. I was satisfied with the way the hunt structure was. My problem is in the way they distribute the tags. All you want to do is defend the GFD. I don't know what your connection is with it. Years ago they had a fair way of distributing the tags. If you got drawn for an archery elk tag you couldn't apply again for 3 years. This was no good, because that way they couldn't get their application fee. So tell me the problem with the preference point system. If they would go with this system, or at least have the draw pocess overseen by an independent accounting firm to guarantee no hanky panky. Sorry I don't trust any Government agency that has complete control of them selves without any checks and balances. And as for you aplauding the members you mentioned, you sound like the GFD you aplauded them because they had the same view as you. God forbid anyone didn't like the way the GFD was running things

Thats what is so nice about the preference point system. In Colorado you get a bonus point if not drawn for your first choice. If you are drawn for your second or third choice you get to go hunting but you still get a bonus point and can keep trying for the choice units. Eventualy you will get a tag there because in a preference point system the people with the most points will get the tags. I have hunted Colorado a couple of times but not enough to accumulate many points. That is the only fair way to distribute tags. This bonus point system is a crock. How do we know how it works? Because they say so? No proof and no oversight. Sure is funny how some people get tags year in and year out, and some never get a tag. I am sure on the whole it is on the up and up, but if they want to make sure a certain person got a tag it can happen and there is no way to prove it happened. Sure is funny how certain people get some of the premiere tags more often. Money makes a difference. It could be just luck but, why not prove it? Just like you said when big money is involved corruption exists. "ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTELY"

How about the fact that they totaly ignored the Arizona Deer Hunter survey. Is that fact enough. How about the preference point system. It has been working well in Colorado for years. And as for not knowing about how government works. Well ok you said to look over the three cadidates for the commision. What the heck does that matter. The Gov. appoints them. That is what I am saying. You have absolutely no say in the matter. Have you been to one of the GFD meetings? I have. If you don't agree with them then sit down and shut up. In Pine top when the matter of changing the deer hunting structure came up, there were a very large number of people there to voice their opinion. That was a joke. When the people running the meeting didn't like the way the meeting was going the discussion was shut down. What a waist of time. And if you don't see it getting any worse in the next 15 years, where the heck have you been in the last 15 years. I was born here over 50 years ago, and have been hunting for 43 of them. I agree with you, I had no problem with the GFD up until the last 10 years, and tried to help when I had time. I have watched the commision ignor problems and even creat problems in the last several yrears. I have watched as the GFD became nothing more than a money machine. A few years ago I had a conversation with a new game officer who told me as a matter of fact that the commisioners ignor the biologists' and her advice, and did what ever they wanted. I doubt now she would admit the conversation. Things are changing. Instead of the GFD being a friend of the sportsman they are becoming arrogant manipulating polititions. And as for G.W. not being smart, seeing is beliving.

Well from what I am reading is that, you think that the Game and Fish are doing a good job of reprsenting the needs of the wildlife and the wants of the hunting public. Tell me why you don't think a preference point system would work. Also tell me why the GFD ignored the ADA petition and worded a bogus hunting inquiry with a pre determined outcome. Also tell me why we pay some of the highest prices in the country for resident hunting and fishing, with no representation. Don't tell me to go to the meetings. I have. When a topic gets heated they refuse any direct coment and end the meeting. The GFD has been doing a terific job in creating a windfall for some future politician to raid, and recently they have figured out that we can't do a thing about it, and slap us in the face with these bogus questionairs. They think we are stupid, no, they know we are. Sorry I got on this soap box, but after ignoring the ADA questionair and creating that bogus bunch of crap they did, it showed just how arrogant they are.

Here we go again. Why do hunters put things down before they even know details. "If it is different it must be bad". Do you think people in Colorado only hunt every 10 years? They get a preference point for not being drawn for the first pick. If they get drawn for their second or third choice they still get the preference point for not being drawn for their first pick. They are not penalized for hunting. But they still have a chance to draw a premium hunt if they desire. In Arizona if you want to hunt then you settle. So you have a choice either hunt the crap areas a lot or don't hunt for years and years hoping to draw a premium hunt. Oh and then don't overlook that, in the present system we use there is no oversight of the drawing by any one.

what does a preference point system have to do with snow pack? It means that the people with the most points get the permits. It is as simple as that. So if you have been applying for several years you will accumilate enough points eventually to draw a tag. In a bonus point systm someone could go their whole life without drawing a tag. I know this for a fact. My dad is 76 years old and has drawn only one elk tag his whol life. Also in a bonus point system there is no accountability. In other words if anyone wanted to screw with the results of the draw no one would be the wiser. In a preference point system it polices itself. Because people would know if someone with less point than they had got drawn.

One thing for sure, not every one would buy a lottery ticket if it were a secret draw by prisoners from the state prison. So why does every one assume that the draw is on the up and up. Just because they say it is? I am not saying that it is corrupt, but if it isn't why is it done the way it is. In Colorado they have a preference point system, and with that system it is easy to tell if someone is fiddling with the system. Three years ago my daughter-in-law was not drawn for an archery tag. Then two nights before the hunt she got a phone call from the Game and Fish Dept. and was asked if she would like a bull tag. She said well heck yes. What a crappy hunt. We didn't do any scouting. We didn't set any stands and we had to work our butt off to get her out hunting. She sure as heck didn't say no, who knows when she would get another tag. Not only that if she refused she would lose her points. What a bunch of crap. Tell me there isn't something going on a little fishy with the draw. I have never been drawn for antellope, 8 years for an archery bull tag, and three years for a coues tag. I am sure the ones on the in with the GFD and some lucky few who get drawn a lot wouldn't change a thing.

There is a big difference in non-hunters and anti-hunters. Don't confuse the isue. Just because someone doesn't hunt doesn't mean that they are against hunting. And as for being careful of what I wish for. I wish for an input as to what happens to our hunting opportunities and game mangement in Arizona. If you think the money grubbing commisioners have your needs in mind and the needs of the wildlife, just look at their past records. You are right I have no idea of what will happen if we were to vote for a commisioner from each county, But I DO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHOUT ANY INPUT. If you think you will be hunting 15 to 20 years down the road, in Arizona, then you haven't been following what has happened in the last 15 years. There is no oversight to the Game and Fish Dept. Yes I know that they are supposed to answer to the legislators and Governor, but have you ever been involved with bureaucratic government. I have, and let me tell you what happens. What ever is recomended by the commisioner is word of law. And as long as they are pulling in the millions and millions of dollars, every legislator is trying to figure a way to get there hands on it, not on how it is being collected. If every county had a commisioner, hunters overwhelmingly out number the anti-hunters in most of the counties. Who cares if Maricopa is full of tree huggers. They would only have one commisioner. I know this would never happen but I am sure it would work better than what is happening now. But if everybody likes what is happening now with the Dept. and loves the idea of money over game management, lets just let our apointed death squad, deliver its death blow to our hunting heritage

It sure sounds good but what makes you think any Governor gives a dang about hunting isues. How many have you seen that ran a platform of hunting reform. All of us hunters, and the wildlife of Arizona, are nothing but a cash cow for pollititions. People seeking public office have greater aspirations than reforming the Game and Fish Dept. so they are left to govern themselves. And we have all seen how that works. I am sure everything will stay as it is, but in 10 to 15 years remember this conversation. I will probably have changed my lifestyle of hunting and fishing because of financial reasons. Some times the cost of the hunt just aint' worth it. I wish I could convince people that something has to be done, but I give up. Hunters would rather leave it to politicians and others to deal with.

Well I had fun venting my frustrations and I hope I haven't offended anybody but I am sure I will never convince very many hunters that voting would be a good thing. I am sure that years of being told that the tree huggers will take over has been imprinted in everyones mind. It is a very good propaganda tool. Make everyone fear the unknown. As for myself, Arizona has pushed me into hunting other states, and the reservations. If you look at the cost it isn't that much more, and I get to hunt. I have so many worthless points in Arizona. I wonder if I can sell my bonus points on E-bay.

If every county had an elected commisioner sitting on the commision then if the people of those counties vote in a tree hugger good for them. The thing is I don't think that would happen but rest assured being affraid of the unknown is not nearly as bad as what I see happening. If you think you will be doing any kind of quality hunting in Arizona 15 years from now good luck with that. If the commision structure stays the course then, I am glad that in 15 years I will be to old to care any more and I sure hope I don't say I told you so. If the decline in the quality of hunting is as bad 15 years from now as it has gotten in the last 15 years I will be showing all of my hunting pictures to my grand kids and telling stories about how every one used to get to hunt not just the privilaged few. Go to Europ and check it out. The only hunting done there is by the rich and famous. I know you don't think it will happen here. Just watch whtat happens years down the road. When the people don't have a say in there future the future is bleak indeed. "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely"

You missed my point. Why do you assume that the commisioners that are appointed are not tree huggers. The liberal Governor appoints them. How can anyone assume that free election of officials is a bad thing. As we speak people that don't have any concern about your hunting rights and any other isue of your concern are running the Game and Fish Dept. And as a matter of fact not one of them give a dang about you or your right to hunt. All they care about is creating a bureaucratic money making grab bag. All of us hunters and good ol' boys two years ago elected one of the dumbest son of a **** I have ever seen, as President. I am sure not a single PETA or tree hugger voted for him. So why do you assume there are more of them than us. If you think about it most of the troubles we as hunters have endured have been at the hands of appointed judges' and other appointed officials. As a matter of fact I think every County in the state should have an elected representative to the commision and do away with all of the present commisioners. The propoganda the Game and Fish people spread about tree huggers taking over the game and fish is a bunch of bull. The only way they could do it is if we are as dumb as we were a few years ago when they outlawed trapping. I hope we wouldn't be as lazy this time. If we were, we deserve to lose our rights. The problem with letting the Governor appoint the commisioners is, that they see it as an endless supply of money they can raid.

Tell me the difference what the heck do you think you have now. Most of the new game officers I have met latlely fit that description. One in perticular has never hunted in her life. And by the actions of the commisioners you already have it. You don't think the governor hasn't appointed the very thing you are so worried about. Go ahead and see if it gets any better this way. You sound like everybody with fear in there hearts. The fear the government instils in people. Go ahead and fear change and you sure won't like the change that is comming.

One thing about Colorado is that they have preference point system instead of a bonus point system. Here is the difference. Preverence point system: The people with the most points get the tags. So eventualy everyone will recieve a tag and the draw is open for everyone to see. If someone got a tag that had less points than someone else then, you would be able to know. Also you know about how long it will take to be drawn for certain units. Bonus point system: Totally random draw where some people could get drawn almost every year while some could concievably never be drawn. If someone with no moral integrety decided to give a tag out nobody would be the wiser. Also with this kind of system there is no accountabilty. The people in charge of the draw can do anything they wish. I am not saying that this is happening, but it could, and probably is. How can the public put up with such a corrupt way in which a government agency works. Apperantly hunters don't give a damned, and don't care if they are reprsented or not.

I am sorry, but I disagree with you. "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely. This is not just a saying, but is a truth born of the ages. There are no checks and balance with this beurocratic branch of government. There is no organization or any one but the Game and Fish Dept. involved with the drawings and the money allocation. With the money from the lottery, and some of the highest priced resident hunting and fishing prices in the country, this should be one of the richest Game and Fish Dept. in the country. Just try and see if you can attend the drawing process. I have been told that the prisoners from the state prison are the ones contracted to administer the big game draw. Of course this might just be a rumer, but if anyone could please tell me in detail who is involved, and how the drawing works I would appreciate it. Not anyone I have asked who works for the G&F can tell me. My daghter-in-law was drawn for Unit 9 archery tag with 0 points last year. I went to help her and talked to about 15 other hunters. Not one of the other hunters were resident hunters. Most were from back east. Something sure seems fishy to me. Until hunters demand a vote we will be treated any way they like. My choice is to hunt other states and the rez. I must have a million points. Put those points between two pieces of bread and see what kind of sandwich it makes.

hawkeye, Why you got to start busten on LittleBear for what you figure is a g&f problem? If you think he is all about $ you are way wrong....And if you think lions are a problem, then what are you doing about it? LittleBear hunts and kills lions with a long bow.....What about you? P.S. I dont think lions have as much impact on deer as alot of people think, but drought plays a big row in how all wildlife acts.....All summer long I seen bear tracks were you would never see them before. And the most bucks I have ever seen in the flats. I think it is just how it goes out there with mother nature....And lions might just be out there too......Good luck and have fun. Terry 25-06, sorry if it sounded like I was busten on LittleBear. I have no problem with him. He had just replied to a posting, about someone that contacted the GFD about the lion problem, and it sounded like he gave a pat GFD answer, about the natural order of things. All I said was that he sounded like he worked for the Game and Fish Dept. and what I thought about the AZGFD. The next thing I knew, he was calling me the "ignorant" public. That is when I figured out I must be right, about him working for the GFD. And that is what the AZGFD thinks about everyone who doesn't think the same way they do. "THE IGNORANT PUBLIC" I'm not really that bad of a guy. I have just had it with the way the Game and Fish have treated all of us members of the "IGNORANT PUBLIC".

WoW! Boy did I hit a nerve or what. If I am so dumb how did I figure out your profesion. I have been hunting AZ since before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye. I've watched, as the Game and Fish has evolved into a mega-money machine, and be damned the sportsman and game of Arizona. I was there when last year, the Commision rejected the petition, the Deer Association presented showing overwhelming distain with the restructuring of the whitetail season. More money, and they thought less deer. I saw more people with 2 point dinks this year than ever. I wonder why the deer herds are so low. And as for uneducated, I'll put my education up against your four years of propaganda any time any place.

Hey Little Bear, sounds like you work for our wonderful Game and Fish Dept. Your response sounds exactly like every conversation I have had with Game and Fish officials. Not just with the lion problem but with the decline of deer herds, over hunted areas, and other topics. Our Game and Fish Dept. cares about "MONEY" and nothing else. So if anyone thinks they can count on your Arizona Game and Fish Dept. to take care of a problem, think again. Unless they can find a way to make big money on a problem, the problem doesn't exist.

I have read Dale Lee's book Life of the Greatest Guide, Written by Robert McCurdy. I would love to read any of the Lee's other books. Can anyone tell me where to find them. I have been looking for Dale's book for some time. I would love to buy some copies. Dave.

I think everyone should read about what kind of maggot George Taulman really is. I say maggot, because I can't call him a man. This maggot needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Read the following press release about the kind of people Taulman is, and associates with. Press Release Issued by the Office of U.S. Attorney, District of Arizona: The U.S. Attorney's Office and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced the indictment of two individuals and a corporation by a federal grand jury for violations of federal wildlife laws stemming from an investigation dubbed "Operation Navajo Buck," conducted during 1998 and 1999. The investigation, which began in 1998, focused on several big game guides based in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, who were suspected of unlawfully using aircraft prior to and during hunting seasons to locate deer and elk for hunting clients in Northern Arizona. The investigation also focused on illegal guiding and hunting on the Navajo Indian Reservation. To date, 12 individuals have been convicted of federal violations and have paid in excess of $85,000 in fines and have forfeited one aircraft and unlawfully taken wildlife. Indicted was a big game outfitter George Taulman, Taos, NM, who was charged with one felony violation of the Lacey Act, two felony violations of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, and two misdemeanor violations of the Airborne Hunting Act. The felony violation of the Lacey Act alleges that an elk was taken by a paid hunting client with the aid of an aircraft in 1998. The felony conspiracy relates to hunts in 1998 and 1999 that Taulman conspired to use aircraft to aid hunting clients in the taking of elk. Taulman's business, United States Outfitter, Inc., was also indicted on three felony counts related to the 1998 and 1999 hunts. Forfeiture of a Cessna 182 aircraft allegedly used during the hunts is required in the indictment. In addition, United States Outfitter's David Holton, III, of Lake Montezuma, AZ, was indicted on one felony violation of the Lacey Act, one felony violation of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, and one misdemeanor violation of the Airborne Hunting Act. All violations relate to an elk hunt conducted in 1998 near Payson, AZ, in which it is alleged that a paid hunting client took an elk with the aid of an aircraft. The Lacey Act is a Federal wildlife law which makes it unlawful to transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase wildlife which was taken, transported, possessed, or sold in violation of State, Federal, or Indian tribal laws or regulations. Felony violations of the Lacey Act carry maximum fines of up to $25,000 for persons, $500,000 for a corporation, and up to five years in prison. All vehicles and aircraft used in violation of the felony provisions of the Lacey Act are subject to forfeiture. The Airborne Hunting Act is a Federal wildlife law which makes it unlawful to shoot animals from an aircraft or to harass animals with an aircraft. The Airborne Hunting Act Regulations prohibit a person, while on the ground, from taking or attempting to take wildlife by means, aid, or use of an aircraft. Maximum penalty for violations for the Airborne Hunting Act include fines up to $100,000 for a person, and $200,000 for a corporation, and one year in prison. An indictment is simply the method by which a person is charged with criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. A person is presumed innocent until competent evidence is presented to a jury that established guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The investigation that led to the indictments was conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service with assistance from the Arizona Game and Fish Department. The prosecution is being handled by the U.S. Attorney's Office, District of Arizona, In Phoenix, AZ. A defendant was sentenced by the U.S. Magistrate in Phoenix, AZ for violating the Lacey Act predicated by tribal law. He had purchased a bull elk hunting permit from a tribal member and killed a 6x6 trophy bull elk on the White Mountain Apache Reservation. The defendant was sentenced to pay $15,000 restitution to the White Mountain Apache Reservation, three years probation, and no hunting/fishing for three years. The 6x6 bull elk was forfeited to the government.

Read the following article from a few years ago. This really shows what kind of maggot Taulman really is. For those of you who do not know who George Taulman he is the owner of USO Outfitters, and the one who sponsored Montoyas Law Suit. Press Release Issued by the Office of U.S. Attorney, District of Arizona: The U.S. Attorney's Office and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced the indictment of two individuals and a corporation by a federal grand jury for violations of federal wildlife laws stemming from an investigation dubbed "Operation Navajo Buck," conducted during 1998 and 1999. The investigation, which began in 1998, focused on several big game guides based in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, who were suspected of unlawfully using aircraft prior to and during hunting seasons to locate deer and elk for hunting clients in Northern Arizona. The investigation also focused on illegal guiding and hunting on the Navajo Indian Reservation. To date, 12 individuals have been convicted of federal violations and have paid in excess of $85,000 in fines and have forfeited one aircraft and unlawfully taken wildlife. Indicted was a big game outfitter George Taulman, Taos, NM, who was charged with one felony violation of the Lacey Act, two felony violations of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, and two misdemeanor violations of the Airborne Hunting Act. The felony violation of the Lacey Act alleges that an elk was taken by a paid hunting client with the aid of an aircraft in 1998. The felony conspiracy relates to hunts in 1998 and 1999 that Taulman conspired to use aircraft to aid hunting clients in the taking of elk. Taulman's business, United States Outfitter, Inc., was also indicted on three felony counts related to the 1998 and 1999 hunts. Forfeiture of a Cessna 182 aircraft allegedly used during the hunts is required in the indictment. In addition, United States Outfitter's David Holton, III, of Lake Montezuma, AZ, was indicted on one felony violation of the Lacey Act, one felony violation of conspiracy to violate the Lacey Act, and one misdemeanor violation of the Airborne Hunting Act. All violations relate to an elk hunt conducted in 1998 near Payson, AZ, in which it is alleged that a paid hunting client took an elk with the aid of an aircraft. The Lacey Act is a Federal wildlife law which makes it unlawful to transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase wildlife which was taken, transported, possessed, or sold in violation of State, Federal, or Indian tribal laws or regulations. Felony violations of the Lacey Act carry maximum fines of up to $25,000 for persons, $500,000 for a corporation, and up to five years in prison. All vehicles and aircraft used in violation of the felony provisions of the Lacey Act are subject to forfeiture. The Airborne Hunting Act is a Federal wildlife law which makes it unlawful to shoot animals from an aircraft or to harass animals with an aircraft. The Airborne Hunting Act Regulations prohibit a person, while on the ground, from taking or attempting to take wildlife by means, aid, or use of an aircraft. Maximum penalty for violations for the Airborne Hunting Act include fines up to $100,000 for a person, and $200,000 for a corporation, and one year in prison. An indictment is simply the method by which a person is charged with criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. A person is presumed innocent until competent evidence is presented to a jury that established guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The investigation that led to the indictments was conducted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service with assistance from the Arizona Game and Fish Department. The prosecution is being handled by the U.S. Attorney's Office, District of Arizona, In Phoenix, AZ. A defendant was sentenced by the U.S. Magistrate in Phoenix, AZ for violating the Lacey Act predicated by tribal law. He had purchased a bull elk hunting permit from a tribal member and killed a 6x6 trophy bull elk on the White Mountain Apache Reservation. The defendant was sentenced to pay $15,000 restitution to the White Mountain Apache Reservation, three years probation, and no hunting/fishing for three years. The 6x6 bull elk was forfeited to the government.

HEY LARK! YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY ABOUT THE AVERAGE GUY NEEDS TO HAVE SOME SAY ON THE COMMISION, BUT THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. AT THE MOMENT. MORE THAN POLOTICS RUN THIS COMMISION, MOSTLY IT IS GREED. THESE GUYS HAVE MORE MONEY COMING IN THAN EVER BEFORE, AND WHEN MONEY IN THE AMOUNTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS INVOLVED CORRUPTION AND SPECIAL INTEREST WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL. WITH THE LOTTERY MONEY AND THE HIKE IN FEES AND SUCH THERE IS TOO MUCH MONEY SITTING ON THE TABLE FOR ANYONE TO DO THE RIGHT THING. WHICH IS TO REVAMP THE DRAW SYSTEM WITH A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM, OR A THREE YEAR WATING PERIOD AFTER GETTING DRAWN. THEY WILL NEVER GO TO A WAITING PERIOD BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE MILLIONS IN NON-REFUNDED APPLICATION FEES. BUT A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM WOULD BE MORE FAIR AND THEY COULD KEEP THERE MONEY COMING IN. WELL NOW THIS CREATES A NEW PROBLEM. IF WE HAD A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM THEY COULDN'T MESS WITH THE DRAW BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE COULD SEE HOW THEY MANIPULATE THE SYSTEM. IN COLORADO THE PERMITS ARE DRAWN WITH THE MOST POINTS GETTING THE TAGS AND THEN WORKING DOWN FROM THAT. IF SOMEONE GOT A TAG WITH LESS POINT THAN YOU YOU COULD BITCH ABOUT IT. WITH OUR PRESENT SYSTEM THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE COMMISION. AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY SEEMS TO BE THE STATE OF AFFAIRS FOR ARIZONA GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL. I WILL GET OFF OF THE SUBJECT NOW BECAUSE IT IS JUST EATING ME UP INSIDE TO SEE THIS GOING ON AND NOT BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I HAVE STARTED HUNTING IN OTHER STATES FOR MY ENJOYMENT AND OTHER THAN BEING TOO EXPENSIVE AM HAVING A BALL. IN OCTOBER I AM HUNTING NORTHERN COLORADO FOR MULE DEER, AND HOPE TO DRAW AN ANTELOPE TAG IN WYOMING NEXT YEAR. I CAN'T AFFORD IT BUT IF I WANT TO HUNT THIS IS WHAT BEING AN ARIZONA HUNTER HAS COME TO. I WISH WE COULD TALK EVERY HUNTER IN ARIZONA TO NOT PUT IN FOR THE DRAW NEXT YEAR AND SEE HOW THEY WOULD FUNCTION WITHOUT THERE MONEY. THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE WE CANT SEE EYE TO EYE ON MUCH OF ANYTHING AND THE COMMISION IS COUNTING ON THAT. IN A MONTH OR TWO THIS WILL ALL BLOW OVER AND NOT ANYONE WILL DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BUT BLOW OFF STEAM, AND THE GAME AND FISH WILL LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. BELIEVE ME THE GAME AND FISH OFFICERS ARE FED UP WITH THE PRESENT SITUATION ALSO, BUT THERE SUPERIORS DON'T LISTEN TO THEM EITHER. I HAVE TALKED TO A COUPLE AND THERE IS NOTHING THEY CAN DO WITHOUT FEAR OF LOSING THERE JOBS. THEY JUST HOPE ENOUGH OF US WILL RAISE heck AND GET SOMETHING DONE, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN. HAWKEYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!