Jawa512

This last fall I hunted 30A. In my preparation for this hunt, I learned like many before me large parts of promising sets of mountains had some major access issues. I am the curious type so I began to research the heart of the issue. It appeared that serious questions existed especially in reference to individual rights in relation to federal law and federal management of public land. Yep I am speaking of the Klumps. The Klumps contended their family had been using the land in question long before it came under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Once the feds began to impose environmental constraints on the Klump's grazing rights, well the battle began. Old man Klump gave the feds a one finger salute, ended up being held in contempt, and served prison time over the issue of cattle grazing on federal land. The fire gradually cooled and this issue ended but the loser was the user of federal public land. The Klumps locked access gates. The next time this issue came up the fire burned a lot hotter. In Nye County Nevada a cattle rancher named Cliven Bundy went to battle with federal land managers over grazing fees on public land. In the end, Bundy was ordered to remove his cattle but he disobeyed the order. The federal government acted next to forcibly remove his cattle. A battle cry went out. Armed support arrived in Nevada. In the end, Bundy's supporters took strategic armed locations and sent the feds away with their "tail between their legs." I haven't found how this case was resolved except for that the feds acquiesced. Here it goes again in Oregon. A ton of questions come up here but in reference to what has been going on in AZ. Do you think that rancher has a right to lock a gate that provides access to a forest service road that crosses his private property but then allow his "good old boys" or other's of his choice access? At first, I responded with a resounding NO until the question was put in the context of do I have the right to close a pedestrian gate across my private property that allows access to a public park behind me and choose who I allow to cross my land if I want to? You bet your bottom dollar I do! That said, we pay our taxes to manage all that land up there. There are too many stories of someone hiking around the closed off land to get to that good spot only to be passed on the forest service road on the other side by "good old boy Billy Bob" in his Dodge Cummins 2500 with the 100 class deer in the bed of the truck he drove right to. Then there is a whole different issue of "what in the heck are the Feds doing on more issue than one in this whole mess?" http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-sheriff-says-refuge-occupiers-trying-to-overthrow-government/ar-AAgjul1?li=BBnbfcL

Getting back to AZ and the issue that flared here and now just simmers in the background. A lot of the public land I have experience with both in Cochise County and closer to Tucson that have access issues has a common denominator. Outside of wilderness areas, all of this land has access networks, it is just that access was shut off to all but some. Federal land managers don't really seem to have to deal with the issue because they have a key to the gate and are allowed access. I wonder what would happen if the land owners told all the public land management agencies, ACCESS DENIED. These guys have to get to that land to do their job but are now faced with what everyone else has to deal with. I imagine some of these access issues might get worked out.

Lark. To me it seems that two entities keep bumping heads, the federal government and individual rights. In AZ the battle has meant cattle ranchers going out of business, prison time, locking of gates. In Nevada, it led to an armed standoff. In Oregon, well to be continued. I just continue to be amazed at how these situations keep escalating and how the Feds keep handling these things.

I was wondering if anyone is traveling north from S. Arizona to points north (Phoenix area) or vice versa that wouldn't mind transporting some reloading supplies and ammo to a couple of guys up that direction? Please shoot me a pm or phone call if you wouldn't mind doing that. Jack 520.604.6612

Edge, please just shoot a PM when you are traveling and if you still are up to doing this.

These are taken for now.

I am converting solely to .260. The following items are cluttering up my reloading bench. I am looking to get rid of approximately 65 pieces of once fired Remington brass, RCBS FL dies, 62ish 140 gr. Sierra Gameking boat tails, and over 100 100 gr. Speer hollow points. I would like to part with everything at once for $50 FTF or $70 shipped (the box is pretty heavy). I am located in Tucson. PM me or I can be reached at 520.604.6612. Jack

Thank you Coues Assasin.

For almost all of my hunts, I have always put in by myself. Now I would like to submit an application with myself and one other on it. If I do this, how does the process work? Is it the application that is successful or unsuccessful or the individual hunters on the application? Thanks, Jack

Good stuff Creed. A great deer to a solid guy!

I am another that falls into an online application that happened but then disappeared. Once this thread popped up, it was time to make sure my application had gone through. I checked my bank account and there was no record of any deduction to Arizona Game and Fish for the original $13 application fee. I then went to my email and there was the confirmation of my application through the online system complete with the hunts I had applied for and the $13 fee. It will be interesting to see how this situation is resolved.

Preface: I am climbing the optics ladder. I started out with some off the shelf Walmart style stuff. Last year, I upgraded to both a Nikon ED50 spotting scope and Bushnell Legend Ultra 10 x42 bins. I used this setup last year in 36A for mule deer. Once I employed these, I decided the Nikon did not have the power I needed for some of the glassing locations I was using (with 20/20 hindsight, I should have kept this scope). I got rid of the Nikon and went with a Vanguard 15-45 x 65. The reviews on this unit were good. I understood it was not a Swaro but… I also kept hearing about the Vortex Vipers. I decided I wanted to upgrade the Bushnells. I elected to change from 10X to 8X. I ended up with Vortex Viper 8 x 42’s. Style: I enjoy glassing for hours. I use a tripod. I prefer to spend my time on the bins . I use the spotting scope to identify anomalies. I also like having the spotting scope for those days I end up at the local public shooting range. Also I am NOT the category of hunter that needs to differentiate between a 100 and 110 class buck. If its in either of those , I would be happy! Dilemma: Off I went to 30A for Coues with the Vanguard and the Vortex’s. I hunted (glassed) hard for days. I would glass up the occasional deer. Concerned that the binos weren’t enough power, I transitioned to the scope and the optical difference was astounding. Quite honestly, the spotting scope stayed in the pack quite a bit once I identified that the Vanguard was not on par with the Vortex’s. I love my bins! On the last day I hunted I ran into a guy with Kaibabs and it put my mind to wondering. I decided I needed to change out my optics again. With that in mind, I am not in the top tier range yet. I can imagine $1000 as my max spend right now. I have never looked through the top tier stuff but I have never sat in a Corvette either. If I can’t afford it, I am not going there. So I began the search for optics to replace the Vanguard. With my preference for binoculars and without the necessity for the really high power optics, I am really intrigued by the Vortex Viper 15 X 50. These seem to be in the price range I am looking at and appear to be the upgrade in power I am looking for. I am looking at reviews but I would love to hear from Coues hunters who have thoughts on them as looking for Coues is different than looking at a Red Headed Cockheaded Woodpecker. Thanks for your thoughts

I told the wife I was getting new binos and that I was going to sale my old stuff to fund them. I avoided the details about the $difference. Thank heavens the old stuff is selling.

I just wanted to drop a little word on the bins I got from Averagejoe as there may be something helpful in what I write someone else. First, thanks to Averagejoe. This was a real smooth transaction and he is a good guy to deal with. As I started this thread, I mentioned how I was stepping up the glass ladder. There is one constant in the equation. The constant is Finger Rock up on Pusch Ridge on the north side of Tucson. Maps show this rock to be about 8.5 miles from my residence. No I am not going to tell you how I spotted a Coues deer under a mountain mahogany at that range. Each time I get a new piece of equipment related to glassing, however, I find myself out in front of my house looking up at this area. The first time I did this, I was using 12 x50 Nikon Action Extremes. Through this glass I, I looked at a hilltop and I could tell there was something there (sky lined so easier) but I could not make out what. I also think back to these bins and how I used them scouting. I always got frustrated until the sun started to poke up. Next up was a Nikon ED50 spotting scope. I had purchased the spotting scope to try to get into good glass without a huge expenditure. On the low setting, I could make out that what was on that hill was something similar to a yucca stalk. I wanted to see, however, if it was in fact a yucca stalk or perhaps something man made like what hikers put on top of hilltops. I cranked up the power and now I could tell it was something very close to a yucca stalk but that was the extent of it. My next glass were Bushnell Legend Ultras in 10 x 42. Obviously I didn’t make much progress on identification of the object with these. Of note, I glassed hard with these last year on a mule deer hunt. I thought they were great. That said, I had terrible headaches at the end of the day during that hunt. I thought it was something else but since I got rid of those, no more headaches. As my original posting noted, I parted with the Nikon because I wanted something with more power. Now in possession of a Vanguard Endeavor HD 15-45, I undertook the exercise again. On the low setting, I immediately noticed I had received the eyepiece with some sort of flaw noted in the reviews. Also, the object on the hilltop continued to be a mystery as the image just wasn’t quite there on the low setting. When I cranked this scope up to the 45 setting, I could make out that it was a yucca stalk. That said, I felt like I was fighting the exit pupil, eye relief etc. The fight was very similar to being out of position when getting behind a rifle and trying to acquire a good sight picture. The take away was that I had a piece of equipment now that I could use for longer range identification stuff but that would be uncomfortable for extended use. The next step up the optics ladder was a large one but I AM FOREVER CONVINCED!!! I ended up with the Euro HD’s in 12 x 50 I picked up from Averagejoe. Like all previous glass I had purchased, I mounted them to the tripod and commenced to glass Finger Rock. In the very first split second of looking through them, I felt a moment of UH-OH as I was not immediately able to recognize a huge optical advantage and I was worried that I had spent more than I should have and on what? Well I took a moment, got the diopter adjusted more precisely and went back to them. Now, things were different. Included were the absolutely pristine image, brightness, and edge to edge clarity. I had read about these terms countless times. Now I was starting to see what these terms meant and how I had been missing out. I switched over to the yucca stalk and here is where my opinion was solidified. Not only could I make out the mysterious object on top of the hill was a yucca stalk, I could do it with relative ease. Someone else in another thread wrote of a similar experience with a herd of deer and how they could not see them with their glass but their buddy could with a higher quality set of glass. It is really hard to describe how my new bins made that yucca stalk stand out. It stood out not because of how it was magnified but because of the picture the glass presented (I think good terms are clarity and crispness). This glassing session answered another question for me. I was really concerned with how I was going to do without being able to get the 45X magnification on an animal. For who I am as a hunter, 12 X 50 high quality glass is all I will need. At the ranges I will be glassing, I have no doubt I will be able to gather the information I will need to decide to put a stalk on or not. Further, I found myself wanting to stay behind these bins. My session was far from long but previously I found myself wanting a break 30 minutes or so. I have always enjoyed glassing but now, well, I think my wife might get annoyed by how much time I spend behind a set of binoculars. In regard to what binoculars to purchase for your hunt, I have heard it is an individual preference. I have to agree with that. Each of us has an area we are going to hunt, a level of knowledge about the animals in the area we are going to hunt (like where they are at), a style of hunting, a budget for gear, and other factors. Once all of these factors are considered, a high dollar set of optics may be low priority. However, if your hunting situation will require extensive glassing, you will be absolutely BEST served to get the best glass you can afford and maybe stretch beyond that (like spend what you have in savings and put the rest on a credit card if that option is available). This fall, I ended up hunting an area where glassing was of high importance. I went to this area with substandard optical equipment. I have no doubt that I spent a whole bunch of hours looking for deer that I was in fact glassing right over because I wanted to save some money. Well, there is next year.

Thanks all. I decided on AverageJoe's Euro's.

Thank you for your insights all! Your experience in realms I have not ventured into are much appreciated.

Is the bigger threat from carcasses transported by hunters? Seems there might be a lot of animals capable of crossing back and forth between N. Mexico and Arizona.

Cody, I think your .270 is a good start for what you are describing. I don't know if you live close to where you hunt but if you do, you might find the following interesting. Acquire a 7" plate and set it up out where you hunt in the 600-700 range (its always cool to hear the bullet hit the steel). If you can find a large box (the bigger the better) to set up behind your target setup, you will be able to see your misses if that happens. Then using your rifle with the ammunition you use hunting, take the shot. Take another right away. How did you do? Now, I personally think it is worthwhile replicating this again. You have a good opportunity to put your rifle down and go take a look at your target. If you walk, by the time you get back 10-15 minutes will hopefully have elapsed and you are getting back to cold bore conditions. Let them fly again. Again, how did things go? Several years ago I got into long range stuff and once you you start it...how does that saying go?

Thank you everyone. I thought I had I problem but now I know I have been doing it wrong.

I thought I had the answers to most of the issues someone would face making it work in the woods. I have made it work but reading some of the threads on here, well, I see there are different and quite possibly better ways of doing things. I want to throw a problem out and I hope for some advice. The issue is the pack. For all my adult life I have thrown it on and gone. If it is uncomfortable, “suck it up.” Well not doing it right might be costing me physically and if it’s possible to change my approach to be doing it right, I need to! I do regular (2x/week) conditioning/practice with my gear to see how everything work/rides (myself included). I have a meat hauler pack (Alps Outdoorz) that I currently have configured for day/hunts (it is not full up to the rim) but has my tripod, spotting scope, game bags, schemagh, knives, water bladder, range finder, gps, headlamps, and small misc. equipment. The scope and tripod are strapped in on opposing sides to counterbalance and the bladder of course rides in the middle. To compensate for the hopeful event of packing meat out, I throw kettle bells in it (in the main compartment cinched down but they still move around some). My sessions are about 1 hour in duration and I strive to have a minimum pack weight of 40 pounds. To identify and avoid the uncomfortable rub, I also do these sessions with an S4 binocular bra and my 8 x 42's in them under the pack. When I get done, my shoulders seem to be the loser. This might be manifesting into a host of neck stuff. My question is that even if the weight is mostly on the hips, should I still be feeling this way? I’ve never really gotten a conclusive answer to this. Thanks for the input! Jack

Hi all, In the course of scouting for my hunt, I am trying to imagine how a potential of 200 hunters might be distributed in the area. Have those that have hunted the area found themselves bumping into others while on foot or had hunters bust through the middle of their glassing area. I would love if someone could send me a PM with their experience hunting this unit. Also for anyone considering the Pedregosas, I had no cellular telephone service on the north side of them off of Rucker/Tex. I lost service close to the Leslie Canyon/Rucker intersection and did not pick it up again until I was within about 4 miles of HWY 80 on the east side. My carrier is Verizon. Some of us can live without it, some of us like to be able to call the wife every night. I thought this info might be useful to someone. Thanks, Jack

KeithV, I agree 100%. Thank you very much Creed!

Even though I have been hunting since I was 14, this year's hunt is much more important! It is so important that I ended up at the GFD office to get a leftover tag for an area I don't know and that few seem to have good thoughts about to assure that I could hunt this year after I failed to draw for areas I know. There is a medical condition called Multiple Sclerosis and I have been battling this since I was 29. Now at 43, I am closer than I've ever been to being at the end of one of my favorite activites in the world. A 3 mile walk into a hunt location means commitment to that area I would not have experienced 5 years ago. 5 years ago it was nothing to pack up and move 3 miles to a different area if my primary area didn't work. This year that is not the case. I want to plan the best I can to try to avoid instances like having someone walk right through what I am glassing. Thanks for the help!!

I wouldn't say new but definitely not expert?

Howdy from another newbie. Where are you hunting?