Str8Shot

Yotebuster browns up to about 15 inches are awesome for grilling , anything bigger you may be happier smoking the meat ... And if they are over 24 inches they look great on the wall .... Personally I do not keep any Rainbow or Cutthroat that I can not tell by size and color is a Hold over and wintered a couple times .. not a fan of the bland soggy white meat of hatchery fed trout that were stocked during the season.

I do about 50/50 keep and release when it comes to Browns... My preference for the grill is Brooks, Browns , then the rest... I do not think I will be keeping Tiger trout

Brown fishing at Horseshoe or Reservation just after Ice out .... Does not get much better than that

Here again you say the Size of the Elk Herd is such a big cost and burden , but the solution is to charge ( limiting a lot of people) , and put caps on hunts limiting hunters again ? Does it make any sense to limit the very people that could help balance out the numbers and help limit the cost annually to the ranch ? They try to paint the fee as going towards cleaning up and making repairs necessary because of the Hunters, I am not buying it neither is the majority of other hunters... If the Elk Herd were Lions taking slaughtering 20 head a day , I bet they would be begging for every possible hunter to come take one out ... But in a sense , Because Each Head of Beef is $$$$$$ and The cost per Head increases by the cost of grazing, watering and infrastructure( just as mortality and loss to predation ads to the cost per head) you are making a herd of Elk equal to that of predators , it comes down to dollars and cents. So again please answer me how limiting and locking out the very people holding the very tags to limit the burden of the Elk heard , directly impacting the cost per head, is the solution ? The herd is going to continue to grow and Big Bo will continue to raise cost to offset the $$$$$ per head they feel they are losing due to the herd using resources, cause lets face it somewhere someone thought that was a good idea and that is really what the dang fees are. Big Bo is Holding State Trust Land and Everyone's Wildlife Hostage and if you pay the Ransom every year you can get a shot ... Sounds a little like extortion to me.

The People Are The state just as The People are the country ... Governments, municipalities and State Departments Depts are their to represent the the people at every level, this is the very reason you pay taxes...The State Trust Land Department serves teh public funding Education K-12 ( makes you wonder why all the issues with education) and the 12 other beneficiaries, which were chosen by the voters. State Trust lands are not the same as Federal lands because they were given to create a foundation and means to fund and grow an education ( in most states ) As a Resident or Non Resident, your hunting license is your permit to use State Trust Lands.... TO say that Tax dollars are not and have not been spent to create and maintain roads on state trust land is inaccurate, just as It would be inaccurate to say No roads and easements are built and maintained by Lease Holders... To enforce Laws on State Trust land, agencies paid by TAX Dollars are used. Oh and Voters approved State Trust Land Swaps as well ... G&F does not own the States Wild Life Big Bo Does not own the States Wild Life (oh and the heard grew based on laws of nature not G&F trying to screw over ranchers and offer more tags) Big Bo Should not be able to deny access to some while profiting off the few ... We are all Tax payers , Who Purchase a Hunting License ( which includes your permit for State Trust Land use) , all in pursuit of OUR BIG GAME ... I honestly do not care that much about unit 10 , helped out on one hunt and seen what a cluster ______ that unit can be and that was Years ago ... I do care for all the fellow hunters who loved that unit and now put their BP's chasing Other Units ( i do not like odds in my preference units ) because they have gotten sick of the access issues and money grabs ... Lots of these Guys who not only volunteered for big clean ups and projects in the area but who also always took out more trash and left that area in better shape then when they arrived. p.s. - If the Elk herd is such a burden on resources and the cost of the ranch than hunters would be doing the rancher a solid ! Kind of like the guy down south , who in the bar before opening weekend was giving invites to hunt in and around his ranch and giving a bounty for a lion kill ....

I guess I was raised to stay out of people's private business. Whether it's their land, their marriages, or their lack of ability to type coherent sentences. It's a free country and you have a right to the things that are yours, you just can't go around forcing your ideas on other people. Seems pretty simple to figure out. Even for a "dakota punk". And that is exactly what 100+ armed hunters should say as they plow the gates down , We are only going to Use what is OURS TOO ! How Dumb Are you ? You keep saying their land ... NO body is arguing what they can do with Their Land ... Their Land does not and should not give them exclusive use to over 200,000 acres ( 314 square miles ) of ALL OUR LAND ....

SHhhhhhhh .... It is already bad enough that I personally know 9 guys that used to put in for Unit 10 exclusively before 2013 and now they only put in for the White Mountain Units, Quit screwing up the Odds We all know Unit 32 is the best for Elk

Holy crap!!! That is the most left wing socialist thing I've ever heard in my life!!! "Hey everybody! Let's hold these American landowners at ransom until they do what the government wants of them!" Good lord. I was concerned that the liberal hippies were dumb enough to vote for Bernie Sanders, now we've got CWT members getting more extreme then he is!! This is sickening. Yotebuster ... If a Government is trying to do the right thing ( representing the people ) to secure and allow access to PUBLIC LANDS( not Private) via Roads that many have had municipal tax $$$$$ upkeep and or make , How is that Socialist ? A True Blooded American Ranch owner in this kind of situation would Allow access to All His or Her Fellow Americans that Have the right to Use PUBLIC LANDS while only charging to gain access to his or her plots of PRIVATE LAND ... In the confines of a Private ranch ( that makes up over half of the Unit when you add the public land they are using and locking most others out of, and is Leased Not Owned by the parties involved in this money grab) There is over 200,000 acres of land locked Public land. That land lock Land is 1/3 - 1/2 of the 38 % of public land in the Unit... I feel it is Un-American to Hold our Public Lands Hostage and Profit off of Land and Wildlife that Every Tax Paying American Hunter should have equal access to... They can do what they want on their Private Land but the charge is not just for their private land it is also for access to Land owned By all that should be Free for all to Use or No-one to USE ... All the Tax Payers of the state Own the Wildlife and They are wanting to run this like a Private Hunting Ranch in Texas and Have the Tax Payers and Sportsmen Pick up all The bills... Pretty Fudging Un-American in My Eyes! p.s. I agree with Lark's idea ...

I am selling this set Complete wheels,tires, and caps for my Dad .... Will let it go here for $450 http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/wto/5417977021.html

If kids have been crossing your land to get to a city park for 10 years and you throw up a brick wall, the city , state , or even parents could go to the courts to get a prescriptive easement and make you put an unlocked gate in that wall and a path for kids to cross to the park. If the park is landlocked and crossing your land is needed to get to it , an easement by Necessity could be obtained legally by a city, state or individual.... Ultimately if the state really wanted to they could use eminent domain to secure easements on all these roads used by generations to access PUBLIC LAND keeping any from being locked up... That would not stop an individual from restricting use of their private land but would allow ingress and egress via these roads to the general public to public lands... I do not know about you, but I would rather see my Tax Dollars and Tag fees spent securing access to OUR PUBLIC LANDS for all now and in future generations versus trying to bring wolves back or studying the mating habits of the chupacabra.

^^^^^^ Not a Good Day if not pissing someone off ^^^^^^^^ I respect and give G&F a lot of credit but I think there are some glaring oversights in this program and I think the one thing all Hunters in Arizona should expect, especially with this new Portal system, is better transparency when it comes to changes such as this proposal.... It would be nothing to create a flashing marquee link front and center that not only gave insight to such ideas but that offer direct public comments and concerns ... By the time it was put on the news feed most everyone I knew including myself were using portal , but It did not show up there .. it showed up on the old page ... There is no search function for the entire site. You can search all the news feed and if you type tag surrender in there you will find zip, zero , zilch ...

That's the first logical quote I've heard regarding the Big Bo. I'd like to see how everyone would like it if their neighbors started hoping the fence and walking through their backyard every morning and evening on their way to work. They'd understand in a hurry what private land means. Private land is private land. They can charge what they want when they want. The $500 fee won't even come close to paying the taxes on their land. Isn't there still about 230,000 acres of fairly popular, hunted for generations PUBLIC STATE TRUST LAND that is still only accessible through Big Bo .... I recall that being a major issue with the locals up there when they first started charging in 2013 ... I agree it is fair of them to Charge for Hunting on their Private land , but it should not be the case for use of the Public lands ... In unit 10 230,000 acres is a pretty big chunk

And you complain being a "guide"?Heck sounds like tons more business for you guys. Win win Wondering what kind of Bonuses Guides will be throwing to their lackeys with High Bonus points to go second on an app and surrender , waiting another year to go hunting ... I am sure some will be working every angle.

From what I have been able to gather , It has always been being sold as this tie in with Portal and paid membership of some kind , but it seems making it work they way they envisioned is not going to be easy or practical at this time so they are running with the tag surrender by allowing an option per app per applicant , which was never part of the discussion from what I have heard. Maybe the all knowing guys that went to all the meetings can tell us when it went from some kind of membership to an application option and why it was not communicated to the simple folk . AzElkhunter2 I am sure you can explain the memberships and how this is all going to work and how tag surrender is a part of that program as stated , since it seems clear that it was all laid out clearly for you just as it is written in their supposed communications.

Wow, did not know their were so many LIBERALS in sheep's clothing carrying guns,..... Others should lose out and pay for Mistakes made on apps , What ever happened to Learn from your Mistakes.... I Have made mistakes on Apps and I sure the heck would not expect a single other hunter to lose out because of my screw up ... Any one who supports this kind of BS the way it is ( I think there should be Tag surrenders but it should not cost and it should be a process that covers specific hardships that must be proven) is no different than the Obama Phone Lovers wanting a free ride because life is so hard and it is not their fault so they should not have to pay for it , others should. Too many tags in the family this year, I screwed up on my app, I screwed up because I did not know the BP system until after I submitted and a buddy told me , I live beyond my means and now can't afford the extra hunt this year IMO are BS excuses me... Any real excuse that keep a person from hunting that happens in life < I doubt the Hunt or BP 's are going to matter ...

NO this is a prime example of why an application should be stored in a cloud and editable by the person who started it ( administrator ) up until the change deadline for credit cards at least or within 48 hours of the draw

Awesome and Thank YOU ! ... Nothing like seeing the predators being thinned out

I will probably be at 9 for 2017 .... That will give me over a Year to take up archery and if I am not in the mood just surrender my Tag !

They better get ready for More Hunter' Safety Field Days ... Betting will be a lot of uninterested wives and kiddos taking classes just to get that extra point . p.s. I admit I may have given G&F too much credit in the previous thread thinking they would see the loopholes and come up with a way that limited abuse, may have to take my own advice and start looking to hunt out of state

You care about the Oscars? J.K. I think I am going to Start a Go fund Me for starting W.E.T. ( White Entertainment Television ) ... Then we can have the WET Awards and they can Have The BET Awards and the Oscars would still be as meaningless as they are today !

Please explain explain the dates of all these meetings ... The 2014 was about Portal and Bundling of services one being Tag surrender ... The minutes should list all the people who spoke on the issue including the public but I see nothing there .. The move was to set a plan for Tag Surrender by Jan 2015 to add to article 1 and develop via the portal MEMBERSHIP Multi Tiered Services ... Jan. 2015 Spoke of the Outreach ... Other than the 1 News report which was buried on the old G&F site when most were already using the new Portal site ( were it would be very easy to add an unavoidable graphic and link to such changes and outcry for public comment) I have searched all PDFs of Agendas and Minutes for 2014 and 2015 and I seen very little mentioned beyond The time line when such a change could be made to the Portal and active... In July 2015 It was still spoken of as a Membership Tiered Service of Portal but that would not seem the case if it is being charged per app per applicant ...IMO That alone would be enough of a change to re discuss the direction of Tag surrender. Remember the first discussion was " Would you be willing to pay a Monthly or Annual membership for the Portal and in exchange get these possible benefits" when did that change because I do not see it in print from the July 2015 link on the Article 1 addition. I know very few people over all the years that said man if I could just trade in my tag and get my points back and most of the time it was do to a family emergency or injury ( which is something that can be supported by medical documentation , just like the guys who what to be able to get a champ license. Surrendering 24 hours prior Will be abused by the Big Trophy Guys who are not seeing what they want that close to the start ... I could see a proven Medical emergency being good reason but something tells me that will be less the case. For group applications Don't allow it and create a New group or Family Application that if one tag is surrendered all are and allow it. Allowing for Group applications with the surrender will create BP pools and in 5 years 2 person applications with one surrendering will become the Norm IMO .... People will always look at way to abuse a system but that does not mean the system should not limit how many ways it can be abused ... OH and IMO surrendering a tag Because the family as a whole got drawn for too many tags is a piss poor excuse and IMO up to the individual to work around, it was his or her choice to put in so many individual applications versus a group app in the first place, one of the downfalls we should all be so lucky to deal with once in a while. p.s. Arizona is Unlike every other state when it comes to Hunting or Fishing ...

It is not a stretch of the imagination .. it is knowing how people already use the system and how $$$$ for a lot is not an issue when it comes to hunting ... With 3 willing non hunting relatives or buddies , and $150 extra spent a year ... within 4 or 5 years you can have you a pretty reliable BP pool so you are never starting below 4 or 5 BP's

I have met a few guys with a kid or two that hunts, and I am sure there are a lot more, who buy an extra 3 licenses a year ( for Non hunting wife , Non Hunting Gramps and Grams) and when any of the 3 get drawn they transfer to one of the kids..... Now say they have 3 non hunting people in the family sitting on 7, 8 or even more bonus points with this new way they will be able to throw one on an app with themselves and a kid and give an instant boost to odds of being drawn and keep boosting chances almost indefinitely with every new draw ... heck They will probably just choose to buy bonus points for 2 of the 3 to keep building their bonus point pool.. Oh and while they are at it start buying bonus points for any kiddos that do not hunt and use them in the future .... I know there are plenty out there that already do this with the tag transfer but now they will have a way to include themselves ... The money is not an issue for the people that do this already. Example ... 2016 Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy got drawn last year ) Hunter B on app has 3 BP ( hunting Kiddo No draw helped daddy) Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 9 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool ) hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 7, and 8 Hunters have 5 group Bonus points and gets drawn .... Mommy surrenders tag .. Kiddo and daddy go hunting 2017 Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy got drawn last year ) Hunter B on app has 2 BP ( hunting Kiddo got drawn last year ) Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 10 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool) Hunters have 5 group BP and do not draw hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 8, and 9 growing for BP pool 2018 Hunter A on app has 3 BP ( hunting Daddy ) Hunter B on app has 3 BP ( hunting Kiddo ) Hunter C on App non hunter Wifey Has 11 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool) hunting daddy buys non hunting gramps and grams a bonus point they have 9, and 10 growing for BP pool Hunters have 6 group Bonus points and get drawn ... Daddy has no problem with the $$$ lost and mommy stays home cause next year gramps is on the list 2019 Hunter A on app has 2 BP ( hunting Daddy ) Hunter B on app has 2 BP ( hunting Kiddo ) Hunter C on App non hunter gramps Has 10 bonus points ( only puts in to help kiddos chances to hunt but now forms a BP pool) Start with 5 group BP's Rinse and repeat ... Game and Fish is going to make a lot money because for a lot of hunters they will start buying a license and BP for every age legal non hunter in the family to start building a BP pool ... heck probably guys that will be willing to pay for non hunting siblings and cousins too ... It will only take a few and a few years to guarantee a single hunter ( putting in on as a group with a non hunter BP holder ) will always be starting with 4 or 5 or even more BP's Knowing how families with kiddos already have been using the system for years this way , How allowing tag surrender on a group app makes no sense too me ...

Yeah I had found that after my post and searching the Article 1 Statute number ... I checked my emails and did not see anything missed ... I did not see it in the news on the new portal, but Honestly I do not see an archived section, However I was able to find it on the old G&F news feed ( Non Portal ) ... I recalled the thread from the 2014 and how many people were responding but it did look like a thread ( That I over looked ) was started in July Here .. did not see much action on it ... I sit possible I missed a single e-mail ... YES We all at times miss posts on forums If G& F really wanted input , one would think they could create a Big Button on the portal that makes it easy for all to see when there are proposed rule changes and make it so comments are sent and filtered through the portal .. Just my opinion. I am not opposed to tag Surrender , but I do not like the idea of how it can be abused and we all know it will be abused... We well see what a can of worms it is over the next few years

After Heat's response I decided to do a little research ... The term that the Game and Fish is using is " Tag Surrender" There was nothing listed on any agenda for public meetings... The original idea came along with the Portal system in 2014 and you Like I can search all the minutes from meetings, but I will give you the Bread and Butter ... In 2014 a plan for the Portal, bundling of services and Tag Surrender was to be developed by Jan 2015 ... Here is all I could find about any Plan ... Ms. Munig briefed the Commission on the Department’s progress toward rulemaking and public outreach efforts for Article 1 rules regarding Definitions and General Provisions. This presentation was informational only and the rulemaking recommendations will be presented at a future meeting. The Department is looking at developing a synopsis of the significant changes that are being suggested for Article 1. The two most significant changes deal with tag surrender and a change to how the 10% nonresident tags are issued in the draw process. The outreach plan will consist of news releases with solicitation for comment to all constituents and will be provided to conservation groups as well as meetings held in regards to the Customer Portal. (Content from http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/documents/2015.01.16-17%20Comm%20Mtg%20Minutes.pdf ) After searching News releases ... I could not find anything After Searching all Meeting Minutes for Public response ... I could not find anything Matter of fact the only thing you will find from the minutes in all meetings( which is very little) is the Portal discussion on implementing the change and Timeline ( was suppose to be Dec. 2015) No clear definitions or changes to Article one rules were presented. So if some of you that seem to know more about this than the rest of us can give more insight, I think a lot of people here would love to know. The one thing that seems very clear to me is, that G&F did not fulfill there commitment of outreach as described in the Jan 2015 minutes.