300WBYMAG

Jim, Thanks for the post and for being so well spoken in your response. I'mglad to see a response directly from you and how you professionally handled it. Thanks for clarification on the other bull as well. Great job on taking that monster and keep it up.

i disagree with your quote as most 370-390" bulls never reach 400". when these bulls, "top end bulls," are consistently taken out of one reasonably small area then the genetic potential of the area has to suffer. there are not 400"++ bulls behind every tree, even in unit 9. When these bulls are killed they no longer pass on their genes and 370" bulls breed. although they are not small, they are not top end as the top end gets killed every yr in the same area. last yr. for example, there was not one 400" bull taken out of unit 9 in the archery, early rifle, or late hunts combined. it was an average yr. or better for horn growth and yet no 400" bulls. they have been getting hammered hard in that unit and two 400" type bulls, "top end bulls," out of the same areas year after year affect the areas potential to consistently produce these giants. no problem with the gov. tag, outfitters guiding them, hunters, or anything associated with the tag or hunt, just a simple observation. Hmmmm... So what you are saying is that all you Mossback guys are soooo worried about the elk in unit 9 that you are going to pull all you cameras out of the unit.... stop lobbying for SR and Auction hunters with pics of bulls that you guys have gotten on TC's in 9 over the last 2-5 years???? I think not..... I am pretty sure there are people with masters degrees in Wildlife Biology that have little better understanding of carrying capacities that will detremine what the herd can take.... not an open forum fired up by elk hunters that are not getting paid to hunt with the Big Dogs this year and therefore must remain on the porch..... Furthermore it has only been the "Bad Cop/Worse Cop" Routine between obvious Team MB guys that even brought up what unit the bull was from and Allegedly what part of that unit he was in at the time the Dirt Nap was invoked. As we all know.... when the bulls rub they move... and Wilbur could have been 30 miles away by then..... I mean seriously, if he was that easy to kill and he was the only bull they were hunting do you think they were camping for 9 days and decided to walk out and kill "the bull" on the 10th??? On a completely separate note.... comparing elk to sheep is like comparing cedar trees to century plants..... Better yet, lets stand up and applaud what a great week this has been for the elk all over this state! If I am not mistaken this is one of the largest, if not the largest Auction bull ever taken on Public Land in AZ. A bull of this size taken on public land, will keep funneling those much needed $$$$ back to elk habitat in this great state for years to come!! I'd like to thank the man who purchased this tag, and I pray the tag goes for more $$$ next year! I think rather than turning this thread into a boo hoo, Bitter-fest..... maybe we can get back to the deserved congrats to the Hunter, his amazing Bull, and the great bunch of guys that helped him ground check that Bad Mutha!! A Huge Congrats to "the Guys" and to the very happy man that set his cap for Wilbur 2 months ago!!!! Coues n Sheep don't back down now saying that wasn't a personal attack when it clearly was. " stop lobbying for SR and Auction hunters with pics of bulls that you guys have gotten on TC's in 9 over the last 2-5 years???? I think not..... " That isn't an attack on Mossback??? Then telling you that Mossback finds bigger bulls and kills bigger bulls in the units you live in/by isn't an attack on you... If you are going to throw out these atta...er words then stand by them or be specific on what you say isn't an attack. Those weren't general statements about this thread going in the wrong direction they were directed to MB. You are right on the bull. It is a great bull and many people misjudged it including me. I had him 400-405, still a sick bull even when uderestimated, but after holding him, he is definitely much bigger. And I can see the questions that biscuit boy or biscuit eater had with the scores. Last year Mullins had a bull that the reported score was in the 430's and I hear, again I state I HEAR that the official score sheet of that bull after drying period and without velvet that it came in with a score in the 400-410 range. Would like to see that score sheet posted. Still a great bull, but makes you suspect of scores being thrown out there. And while I don't like agreeing with you I have to agree that it is good for AZ with this caliber of bull being taken and driving money directly back into taking care of the elk. I'm sure that hunter is so excited to be able to have taken that bull with the help of mullins.

Not sure if that is the bull, but there has got to be more pics of that bull with all the cameras that were on the drinkers out there. Anyone else got pictures of this bull out there? I wonder how many different names that bulls had since so many people saw him. I didn't get that high of a score out of him. I thought he might go 400-405, but they did say his body was way bigger and most people I talked to had him in that range too. If it is the same bull.

Yes, I actually copied and pasted it from the 09-10 regs. I would understand that as a governor's tag being in that category, but you are absolutely right it is confusing and you wonder how it will be interpreted and if it will be interpreted consistently. I would think that it would only apply to the parties involved with governor's or another special tag, but that is just my personal interpretation and I don't know if you will even get a consistent answer from G&F. Personally, you couldn't get me in one of those flying lawn chairs with a chute behind it in the first place!

From AZGF: http://www.azgfd.gov/faq/Hunting.shtml Can I use an aircraft to scout wildlife before or during the season? No. Commission Rule R12-4-319 states that a person shall not use any aircraft, or any contrivance used for flight, or any lighter-than-air contrivance, to take, locate, or assist in locating wildlife beginning 48 hours before and during all big game seasons. This rule applies to all big game seasons and includes Commission Order special seasons. The Arizona Game and Fish Department also states aircraft cannot be used at any time in a manner that results in harassment to wildlife. R12-4-319 Use of Aircraft to Take Wildlife A. For the purposes of this Section, the following definitions apply: 1. “Aircraft” means any contrivance used for flight in the air or any lighter-than-air contrivance. 2. “Locate” means any act or activity that does not take or harass wildlife and is directed at locating or finding wildlife in a hunt area. B. An individual shall not take or assist in taking wildlife from or with the aid of aircraft. C. Except in hunt units with Commission-ordered special seasons under R12-4-115 and R12-4-120 and hunt units with seasons only for mountain lion and no other concurrent big game season, an individual shall not locate or assist in locating wildlife from or with the aid of an aircraft in a hunt unit with an open big game season. This restriction begins 48 hours before the opening of a big game season in a hunt unit and extends until the close of the big game season for that hunt unit. D. An individual who possesses a special big game license tag for a special season under R12-4-115 or R12-4-120 or an individual who assists or will assist such a licensee shall not use an aircraft to locate wildlife beginning 48 hours before and during a Commission-ordered special season. E. This Section does not apply to any individual acting within the scope of official duties as an employee or authorized agent of the state or the United States to administer or protect or aid in the administration or protection of land, water, wildlife, livestock, domesticated animals, human life, or crops.

Maybe we should ask Mullins what the rule is????

125 5/8

Lance, maybe we can trade the 12 buffets for 6 steak dinners and split it I got a better idea we can get one of those extended tour jeeps and charge for trips to see the bulls Maybe put up a few pics of the one horned wonder. Now that would be a sick bull if he had a matching antlers. Only a handful probably know where he ruts and I know I have way too many points to put in there now. But if we can just let him live until after I draw my 9 tag that would be perfect

This is pathetic. Is that bull crazy? Yes, but he ain't no secret. I could take you to see that bull every day of the week 3 times a day. But I'll pass on the beer and take 12 trips to the chinese buffet. I have three years of pics of this bull and he is getting bigger each year, but really matters is where this bull ruts Here he is two days ago...

It might be something a little more devious then that. Someone might have found your cam and decided to take the pics but had some sort of conscience and didn't mess up your camera. I was checking one of my cameras this weekend and I come up on it to find the battey laying on the ground and when I opened the camera my SD card was missing. Pretty frustrating! I always have my laptop in my pack when I am checking my cams and it would be easy to just take the pics and delete them from the card. Then my buddy and I were checking some of his cams and one of them had 2 pictures on it and the same situation as you where they checked before they left and the 2 pics were from us walking up to the camera, but the batteries were drained enough that there should have been a lot of pictures on there. This is the same camera that someone found and messed with by taking pictures of the sky, his hand, and then he put it right back. You hate to think the worst, but I know it is happening out there.

Building drinkers is a great. But I am concerned about the immediate problem of the days on end wildlife are going without water. AZ Elk Society should contract with a water hauler to keep these drinkers full and sustain the wildlife. Even with vulonteer work in times of crisis like this we are better off contracting with a hauler versus depending on the volunteer's schedules, availabilty, etc. Maybe if they could have gotten more than $85k for the auction tag we would have funds avaible to do this. RMEF was able to get to get $120k+ for the same tag this year. An extra $35k would have been plenty to hire a contractor to keep tanks full. Maybe RMEF should sell both tags going forward. This is just my opinion, but we can't rely solely on volunteers work in crisis situations and this is when we need to use the funds raised for this purpose, but when you don't have the funds you can't get it done.... We all have different opinions on how the elk tag auction went this year, but the bottom line is money was left on the table that could have been used to support the elk.

I guess that is right, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and not much can be done now to change anything, but I hope that something is learned for the future because I truly believe the elk lost out on this one with the extra money that could have been made. And those boys weren't the only ones bidding. One of the other bidders that was waiting has bought many tags over the years and I'm sure if you talked to him he would tell you he was shocked. But again just my opinion, and I wasn't there this year, so take it for its worth. If you ask my wife it ain't worth much.

I wasn't there, but based off the posts made above it seems really odd to me that it sold for $85k after shooting for $90k and never backing down from $90k. Why did he not back down from $90k? When was the last time that you saw the closing stages of an auction in $5k or nothing increments??? That same auctioneer has gone down to $100 dollar increments before to get bidding going again. My understanding is that he did this on other tags like the stag hunt, etc which draw nothing in comparison to the money that the elk tag brings in. I can see those bidders holding out until $100k. When was the last time it sold under $100k??? At least 7 years ago. Last year the bidding was held up for 10 to 15 minutes at $90k before it finally started up again. Does anybody recall last years auction deer tag? The bidding was so slow that the auctioneer stopped and talked to the crowd for quite some time before heating it up again to make sure it wasn't sold for less then it was worth. Again, I wasn't there, but have been to severeal auctions for these tags and this sure seems odd. AZ1 I hope you know the facts when you start calling people idiots and dumba$$ on a public forum and pops same to you. And yes it is a big deal that there was no going once, twice, etc. I have never seen it happen like this. Every time that I can recall it has gone this way and yes I have seen bidders hold out until this point because it is time to get serious. I guess the elk are the ones who really lost out with the loss of revenue. Maybe the RMEF needs to auction both tags since they were able to get $120k plus for the same tag. Interesting...................

It seems like most of you guys who are saying to go with the leveling kits are driving bigger trucks ranging from 1/2 to 3/4 tons with some I'm sure running diesels. Those aren't the kind of vehicles that can useful in tight radius turning, crazy terrain situations that you can get into out in the woods, so I bet most of you probably have quads or side by sides like rhinos. If your need is to just have bigger tires and a little more clearance then a leveling kit will probably work good for you. If you actually are going to need it to get into some tight places and have something that can do it I would think a little harder about what you are going to do. People are talking about doing stuf that doesn't mess with the stock suspension, A-arms, sway bar, etc. Those are exactly the things you need to change. The stock components are not made for the abuse that can happen out there and you have some weak links. Yes, there are lifts that are out there that are jokes, but there are many companies putting solid kits out that are making your 4x4 tougher with stronger components to handle tough situations. People might say it is going overboard, but if you want to make sure i is reliable out there then there is more than just the lift to think about to make it somehing that is more useful then just driving down the fs road to a camping spot. With that said it has to be done on te right vehicle. You can do all you want to a F350 ext cab with lifts, winches, lockers, gearing, etc. and it won't help a bit because you have a turning radius the size of a football field and hardly any suspension travel. They sure do look pretty though. So definitely take into account the vehicle you are doing this to as well. Smaller wheelbase vehicles like Jeeps and Toyota's can be made into some rocksolid trail machines, but when you start getting into full size vehicles you are talking about a cool looking dirt road machine not a romping 4x4 capable of going where no one else can go.

Haven't found the shed, but it sure is freaky......

AMAZING..... I just saw pics confirming the question I was asking about yesterday on another post. 3 toads in one week taken by a group of self-guided hunters who just love to hunt Coues. Part of me doesn't want to post because I don't have permission to show the pics, but they are too amazing to not talk about. I won't go into the detail of the scores but the average is 127". All taken in one week. I know I can't be the only one on here that has seen these bucks. Anyone else seen them???

The sickest part is that they have it all on video. From watching, whacking, and stacking them. Those whack jobs will have those memories on video to remember forever. Should I start preselling???? What is even sicker is that they got it done stateside too with B&C bucks before the Mexico hunt.

Ok, here's the photos they told me to post. I'm jealous.....

Scott, Chad is the one holding back and that buck of Shane's is a slob. There isn't a mass measurement under 4 1/2". I'll see if Chad will allow a peek at the bucks.... Chad if you're reading lets see it. But how many times do 3 guys go down and kill 3 bucks in between 121-136". It's about time for Chad, since he couldn't break 100" to save his life.

They are real. I'll try to find the details on them, but the kicker is that they are high fenced farm bulls like the 575+ email that keeps going around http://blog.kingsoutdoorworld.com/2006/10/03/ . Look closely at the ears and you will see a tattoo. All numbered and scored for the highest paying client. I don't call this hunting, but you can judge for yourself... http://www.wild-roseelkranch.com/welcome/HuntBulls.htm And this one is great. They even tell you the previous year's shed score and expected score for the current year. Anyone feel like hunting cattle??? http://www.elkhuntingpreserve.com/elk_hunts.html

Those are definitely some great bucks. Looks like you guys did well for yourselves. Most will just dream of bucks like that. Off the subject of your bucks, but I just heard from a reliable source that 3 guys just came back from Mexico with an average score of 127 with the smallest scoring 121. Anyone else heard about this yet???

Are you smoking crack??? Not affected by the drought??? You and your buddies need to stick to your Coues and forget about the elk. I wouldn't doubt that you saw a 380 bull, I've seen them too, but they are not what they should be. The beam length and tops are not what you would like to see. There are a ton of bulls that are solid on their first 3 with ok 4th's and then dinky 5th's and are lucky to be pushing beams that are 50". Go take a look at this post http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/in...ic=3531&hl= It says it all there with pics. Is a 380 bull a great bull??? You bet, but it is bummer that we aren't seeing most of the bulls full potential. I'm sure you are seeing some big deer. Look at the timing difference from when they drop their antlers and grow compared to the bulls. It was perfect timing for the deer, but too late for the elk. When you read the post notice that your buddies at Mullins agree.....

It would seem to be the same to me from my experience, except this summer. I was out filming looking for a specific bull and in the large field there were over 200 head of elk and close to 100 cattle. There was probably about a 100 yard spacing between the two groups, but they didn't seem to mind too much. In fact there were two bulls grazing among the cattle. I have hunted 5bn a lot in the past and I have found that the elk do avoid the cattle. But not to the extent of what you would think. Many times I have watched elk move off from cattle, but they would only move through the closest cover to keep them out of their line of site. Well at least that has been my experience in 5bn in the eastern ranch areas.

I drew the Oct unit 21 Coues hunt this year. I have not drawn 21 before, but I know some of the unit and plan on spending a lot of time glassing the bachelored bucks up before the hunt. My question for all of you is how have the fires affected the southern half of the unit? Are the deer going into the new growth or are they avoiding it preferring the thicker old growth? Is it worth spending time in there or should I focus in the unburned areas???

Wow, those are nice bucks and they look just like the ones I saw the last two weeks in unit 8. If it's not them then they are identical twins. If it is them, good luck to you and I'll see you out there because I'll be hunting them too. I'll look for red beard......