Snapshot

" Where did those $100 bills lying on the ground come from"?

Vey nice indeed!

My point is it does not always have to always "boil down to a few animals" if good minds get together and work on the real problem. Instead of worrying about bonus points and methods to decide who gets to hunt, we need to learn why reproduction and survival rates on Arizona's deer are so low and then do something about it. As for the "lots of hunters wanting them", twice as many hunters as we now have (or more) would be no problem in a state as large as Arizona if all the locks and no trespassing signs that block our entry to state, BLM and forest service land were removed. Forget "how they rig up the draw." A lottery wouldn't be needed if we had more deer. Other reasons to get outdoors are fine, but deer hunting itself is threatened if we continue to tell thousands of would-be hunters to stay home. Bill Quimby Absolutely right! The draw system is a minor issue compared to the future of the game animals.

Tommy, The area I will be hunting, will be below the rim. I will send you a P.M before I go hunting and get your phone#. I can't get cell phone signal in that unit except up by Alpine. The last time I hunted elk up there in 2005, I talked to some wranglers up the road aways and they said around $200 to pack out an elk depending on how far in it was. But they did not have to drive very far with the horse trailer, so you would consider your gas expense and at least a good hourly rate for yourself to make it worthwhile. The November Archery bull hunt is November 13-26, the general rifle hunt starts right after that. I will be up there for the 2 full weeks, if my plan holds together. In that country, I rarely get more than 5 miles from a road or trailhead.

I would love to get out for a few days of bear hunting, but I can't right now. I will have to do my bear hunting during deer/elk season, as long as the harvest objectives have not been met.

Its a great idea, especially helpful for us older guys with bad backs If I am lucky enough to get a bull on my November archery hunt in unit 27, I will certainly look for someone with horses in the vicinty that would pack it out for a fee, depending on cost? Shooting a bull in that country even 2 or 3 miles from the nearest road creates a tremendous chore in getting him out before any meat spoilage occurs. It can take one man, 2 days or more, of hardwork to pack out an elk in that country depending on distance.

Mmmmmmmmm, buffalo burgers! Way to go, on what sounds like a great hunt. Hope you have a great big freezer!

I was 16 when I shot my first buck in unit 30B. An average 3x3 mule deer. I had walked up over a small rise and a buck and doe were coming up the same rise in the opposite direction when we saw each other at about 40 yards. I don't know who was more surprised, me or that buck. It took me a few years to get that first buck.

Some years back, a reliable source told me of a huge whietail that they saw on a backpacking trip in the Rincon mountains east of Tucson. The buck was seen at almost 9000' in elevation by Helen's Dome up in the black timber.

Thats a tough question to answer. The World record mule deer and CouesWhitetail have stood for quite awhile. The Northern whitetail record was broken some years back, and elk records are broken more often than deer. I would have to say no in the United States, maybe from mexico? I do believe the genetics are still there in some areas?. Look at the world record bow kill taken 7-8 years ago, it was taken, I believe, in the same general area as the Rifle Record in 34A. If there is a world record out there I feel it would probably be in a unit that has areas that do not see any or very few hunters. With the amount of serious and hardcore trophy hunters that are hunting harder and farther into difficult areas, alot of great bucks are being killed before they can ever reach, if possible, world record status. Genetics are a big factor in antler size, a big buck can live its whole life and die of old age, and never grow antlers big enough to beat the world record. But if the genetics are there.......? I think There are bucks that have been killed that are bigger, but because of scoring deductions they don't make the grade.? I have heard rumor of big Coues bucks living in areas of heavy timber. These bucks would be almost impssible to glass up, and would require skilled still hunting or a good stand. Who's to say that there is not a potential world record in some remote heavily timbered area? Just a thought! SCORE: 144 1/8 LOCATION: Pima County, AZ HUNTER: Ed Stockwell OWNER: Barbara Stockwell DATE: 1953 KEY MEASUREMENTS: Length of main beam: Right 20 2/8 - Left 20 5/8 Inside spread: 15 3/8 Circ. of smallest place between burr and first point: Right 5 4/8 - Left 5 6/8 Number of points: Right 5 - Left 5

Very nice pics/video! Good rain storms have been pretty scarce down here so far.

I like seeing all these great bucksthis time of year. It sparks the anticipation for the upcoming fall hunts. Great buck Amanda. One of the tallest I have ever seen.

Let's carry that thought a bit farther. How about $1,000 each per bonus point for residents and $5,000 each for non-residents? At $250 each, one of your really well-to-do applicants wouldn't blink at having to cough up $10,000 for 40 bonus points and a guaranteed bighorn or prime-unit elk tag. No way do we need this. I've said this before: we need to quit worrying about the petty details of a failed lottery system and concentrate on the real problem, which is we don't have enough deer for everyone who wants to go deer hunting. Other states with a heck of a lot less deer habitat than Arizona have no problems accommodating their hunters. In fact, a large number of small states have a problem with too many deer. If you want to debate whether management-through-a-lottery-system has failed or not, just ask yourself why Arizona issues fewer tags today than it did twenty or thirty years ago. After just one year short of four decades of permit-only deer hunting, we should have more (and not fewer) deer and deer hunters if permit-only hunting were a valid method for managing deer. And please don't say it's because the advance of civilization and a growing population has caused a dramatic shrinkage of Arizona's deer habitat. Only 18 percent of this state is in private ownership. The remainder is managed by state, tribal and federal governments and most of remains open to hunting (although it costs more to hunt on reservations). We have lost some land because of the expansion of national parks, granted, but our real problem has been a huge loss of access to many thousands of acres of public lands. Access is just one of the things we need to address, though. Predation, disease, drought, and a dozen other things may or may not be factors in the poor survival rate of deer here, and all need to be addressed. Worrying whether longtime residents should get extra bonus points is like putting Band-aids on our problem. Bill Quimby Bill, I was just joking about the bonus point purchase! It would be a total meltdown of the Bonus point system if that ever happened!

Maybe G&F could start a bonus point purchasing program, say at a price of $250.00 each. They could make a ton of cash from wealthy or overly eager applicants. I bet the "well to do" NR's would be lining up to buy points. Does anyone see this happening in the distant future?

I wish I had some vintage photos, but for one reason or another we didn't seem to take any pictures back then. I really regret not having photos from " the good ole day's".

Thanks for the info wetmule.! I did not realize those two are biologists. All of the draw change issues aside, sound biological and ecological data go along way in determining ways to maintain healthy animal herds and the long term impact and possibility of over hunting our deer with the major increase in tags for various units. What better way to get commissioners that won't turn the other cheek than a couple of gun toting, venison eating biologists who can see the big picture? Maybe I am asking for too much, but I am concerned about the future of our herds. I am certainly no expert on the subject, but I feel with the increase in permits and the extra late November hunt added into the mix, that the overcrowding and extra hunting pressure may lead to bad things in the future. An example of this is a major increase in whitetail permits for my favorite unit . There are good bucks in the unit, but in my opinion it does not have near the population that the better whitetail units have. I would like to see good data that supports the possible increase in harvest without effecting the long term buck/doe ratios and quality potential. Unfortunately science and politics dont mix well.

This scenario is a double edge sword. You just said it yourself that we are just starting to recover from the commission that Napolitano put in place. What happens if we get someone worse than Napolitano in office (if thats possible?) How long will this more hunter friendly Commission last if we get a bunny hugger for Govenor? I know that it would be segregating to just let licensed hunters vote on G&F issues, and alot of uninformed hunters might not make an educated vote, but stranger laws have been created in other circumstances? Maybe the G&F department could vote in its own commission. ? Personally, I would like to see some department wildlife biologists on the board of commissioners

My best buck is 23 6/8", taken with a spear, after an 18 pack the night before> Yes, I have a twisted sense of humor! Best whitetail = 99 5/8 approx. Rifle: Semi Custom 30-06 Memory of the hunt: That is why I hunt, for the memories, good times, solitude, and freedom.

Sorry to here about that. Best wishes to his family and friends

I certainly understand that. I guess I should clarify myself, when I say "Voters", I mean anyone with a valid hunting license only!

Nothing a wait period coun't fix. In Utah if you are successful for a premium hunt you have to wait I believe 3 yrs to be eligible again. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes. I am all for a waiting period system, for deer,elk, and antelope.

Yes sir! The .300 RUM is next on my wish list. Great caliber for anything in North America and beyond. I don't have any experience with the .300WSM.

This topic seems to come up every year after the draw. I can certainly relate to the letdown of not being drawn. If you want to hunt, you need to get drawn. To draw a tag you need to play the odds. If all you want is a prime December Tag, then the best of luck to you. Considering that they drastically lowered the available December permits, draw odds for those hunts just took a serious nosedive. I get drawn for deer every year. Second choice this year, 1st choice last year, and third and fourth choices the prior 4 years. If you play the odds to your favor you can get a tag every year, even though it may not be a primo tag. Or you can get a leftover in overcrowded units The draw was decent to me this year, but next year it might not. Then there are some folks on here that draw an elk tag 399 times in a row, I won't mention any names

I am always more worried about the weekend warrior crowd, rather than the dark haired people heading north. Its the ones heading south that you want to stay away from.

It is certainly a possibility. Best thing is not to leave any visible items in your truck that would tempt even a casual thief. Maybe park your truck close to another camp ?