macknnc

Now, understand..I'm a Easterner, keep that in mind...but here in NC, using a predator call, I've twice called in bobcat and dispatched them...once a .22 the other time a 12 ga with #4 shot...and a mountain lion is merely a bigger bobcat when you boil it all down...and I've read of it being done..(somewhere) so has anyone here called in a mountain lion? Any one tried it and had the cat show up laughing calliing out 'you've got to be kidding me, man." Any reason it can't be done?

Some of what I am reading is saying the lower end .22 centerfires, the .22 Hornet, the .222 and .223 group...are not adequate for coyotes...I really question this..I've killed foxes and bobcats with .22 LR rifles, so I personally would not hestiate to take on a coyote with any of the calibers mentioned here. I know they're most typically taken with the deer rifles, but for specialty shooting them, any reason you need more horsepower than the lower end .22 centerfires?

So...lets say, God smiles..everything comes together just perfectly...etc and etc and I can come west in 2015 to try to get Coues off my bucket list...So lets base all this on that.. now keeping in mind that this would be an unguided hunt, and quite probably my only shot at getting a Coues..Arizona or New Mexico? Let's start there and we'll work from there...

And looking over some more of his writings, old George didn't like any of the .22 centerfires for coyotes...which strikes me as vaguely ridiculous, considering both the .220 Swift and .22-250 have been used (with varying amounts of success, granted) on much larger game than a dang coyote. George Herter is a lot of fun to read but he reminds me of my ex wife..."It's gonna take more than facts to convince me I'm wrong!"

Rossislider:Interesting you would ask that. The fellow that said that was writing 40 odd years ago, and did a lot of writing but was not hopelessly addicted to the facts. George Leonard Herter. Again, though, Herter was not just 'opinionated' he was "I'm right and everyone in the known universe who disagrees with me is wrong' opinionated. And he did run, for decades, a pretty big outdoor supply company, and did have a lot of experience in the field so dismissing his theories out of hand with investigation might be a mistake. (though I did read the lower end .22 centerfires were a bit light somewhere else, I just can't find it) But I am a fan of the .22 Hornet and triple deuce...and I doubt even "Mr. Big Bullet' himself, Elmer Keith, at his peak, would have claimed the Hornet, .222 and .223 as 'light for coyotes.'

In Az? Are they still varmints? furbears? Any protection at all? Here in NC they're in the 'shoot on sight' class in most counties...(They're 'protected' in some of the eastern counties but not really. Shooting coytoes is banned because those areas they are also trying to reintroduce the red wolf, which are totally protected, and the Fish and Wildlife folks aren't sure all would be able to tell the difference) But I remember reading some O'Connor a while back and he writes how he used to hike in AZ, taking shots at targets of opportunity, jack and coyotes for the most part, to practice on. That, of course, was over 60 years ago. Any limits or season on the yodel dogs these days?

In 1979, Pedersen Hunting Magazine put out a Jack O'Connor special, one year after he died...I guess they call it a 'book' though it is actually special editon of the magazine made up of ariticles written by Jack during his time at the magazine.. One of them is an article on the Coues which O'Connor refers to as the 'Arizona Whitetail, which makes a lot of sense since it is an Arizona deer..except.... yes the Coues subspecies is in AZ..and along a western strip in southern New Mexico...and in Mexico..but Jack says he also saw them in 'the Glass and Chisos Mountains of the Big Bend of Texas" Now this was news to me. Every range map I checked showed the Coues nowhere near Texas...but this morning I finally found one that shows it might be just barely possible...just barely..in the slightest southwestern corner of Texas... Can any one confirm this? Or did Jack hold a too long conference with another Jack (Daniels) before writing that?

Flatlander..I was wondering about that too... but the Carman Mountain subset seems further east than the 'accepted' Coues range, and O'Connor's locating them in Texas's Big Bend puts his group, whatever they are, well west of the Carman Mountain whitetail. I was, to begin with, of the same opinion as dustin...but again, though most range maps on the Coues I have seen agree with the generally accepted wisedom...AZ, Mexico and a strip in SW New Mexico, that one range map I found yesterday is still bugging me..(naturally I can't find it today...though I plan to continue to look) and that map does indicate it was, at least, just barely possible... But man, this is really bugging me...

One thought I had...considering we are talking about a backpacking hunt in Unit 33,which would sorta of extend my range so to speak is this.. (Oh and note:I 'developed' this plan 20 odd years ago when I was planning a bighorn hunt in Montana's unlimited area...) So the key to any 'away' hunt is scouting...so assuming AZ reg's allow it...get there a week or so early, establish a base camp...toss on my pack, but a 'special load...my binocs, a GPS, and at least a weeks worth of water...lots and lots of water...and extra food..I go to point "A' ...drop half the extra water and food...scout around.. scout my way back to the base camp...the next day, do same thing..but in a different direction... The basic point here is, as I scout, also establish 'caches' of water, and some food...(mostly concentrating on water, since water weighs the most and is basically the most important...AZ being so dry and lets face it...hot as the dickens...hot even by southern standards...) This would increase my range, and since, if need be, water can be poured out, also leave me with a lighter pack to bring out the deer assuming I get lucky... So start poking holes in the plan folks..that's why I have posted it..

All right fellows, this is exactly what I want. At the end of my very first post in this thread, I said I wanted you guys to poke holes in it... No, I've never laid eyes on 33. My one Coues hunt was well south of there in the Chirchaua Mountains... But I am basically speaking of setting up a base camp...scouting out from there to make the caches I am talking about.. And no matter how 'well-watered' 33 is, I'm gonna feel a lot better if I have some extra water stashed here and there....I think it is important to keep in mind I live in North Carolina...NC is hot yes..but not Arizona hot...but NC ain't in the least bit dry...Years ago, i had a girlfriend in Colorado, who came out here to visit me..and about all she would talk about for days was how green the state was..We get a lot of rain..NC'ers probably waste more water in a year than Arizona gets! I remember Arizona, (again 40 plus years ago) as hot,dry and for me, very thirsty. So 'lots of water in 33' by Arizona standards is probably not a lot of water by NC standards...

As I said, in my earliest posts here...I grew up reading Jack O' Connor...his books, his monthy column...and recently got the excellent bio on him by Robert Anderson, which includes a chronology...and according to it..(and to the text in the first chapter) O'Connor killed his first Coues just east of Tucson in the Catalina mountains... So back to Adams book...the Catalina Mountains are in Unit 33...(again..all my info is at least 10 years old, except for what I pick up here..)..Unit 33 is highly recommended...three hunts...first two 'reasonable' success rates...(by NC standards at least)...third one..great success... Adams also suggest backpacking in the 'late hunt' will offer more success... now all this sounds very intriguing to me...particularly the back packing idea...I need to get back into shape but I have thought that might extend my range so to speak... But any of you reguarly hunt 33? Are the conditions more or less the same as they were 10-11 years ago?

Sherman: That certainly is a valid point, but, assuming all this comes together, hunting 33 allows me to check off two things on my 'bucket list' finally take a Coues (a quest that started in the Chirachua (sp?) Mountains in the 1970s) and hunt ground covered by my boyhood/young adulthood hero, Jack O'Connor. Though I freely admit duplicating Jack's first successful Coues hunt will not really be possilbe...According to Anderson, O'Connor, going to college in Tucson then, talked a co-ed with car into taking him into the Catalina's, they parked...(for shame, Jack..) O'Connor went for a 'short walk" with a 30-30, (one of the many 'lost' O'Connor rifles) spooked a buck and managed to whittle him down on the run... That was over 90 years ago, so I sorta doubt I can pull that off today (or this fall or next fall one of which is when this will occur..)

Don't forget 300 jr tags and 200 muzzleloader tags and OTC archery hunts in August, December and January. Lots and lots of tags, hands down the most hunted unit in the state. Success still hovers around 30%. I didn't include those hunts because if I recall in another thread he mentioned he would be doing his first hunt with a rifle and I do not believe he's a junior. Yup it will be with a rifle and haven't been a junior for a very long time...

So my next question what would be the best unit? Keeping in mind the following; It will be a rifle hunt. For a second Coues I have not problem using my flintlock or bow, for the first onel, I think my .270 offers challenger aplenty to a North Carolina boy. Neither am I gadget guy. Binocs, and a smallish GPS unit would be about the extent of it...Backpacking is something I am going to come back to in a day or two...(I have, in the back of my mind, a 'new' hunting techinque which I will discuss in a couple of days...) And though of course a B&C deer would be wonderful, all I would really want is a good solid 'representive' head...not a spike or a forkhorn, but something that a Coues hunter visiting from the West, seeing it would nod and say 'nice buck' ... So what unit? (I'm basing all this on Duwane Adams book if that helps any..)

"Pick up a set of 15'." ???

readytohunt: Yeah I did kinda notice that...As I said, I suspected AZ would get the nod..plus in my case, as I have said here several times, I grew up reading O'Connor, most recently, Robert Anderson's bio on him...and the idea of hunting some of the same ground as The Great Man is appealing...which is sorta bringing me to my next question....

Okay..that is actually more or less what I expected..but why? the population densities seem pretty close, within their given ranges, the rack of the NM bucks are comparable... Not arguing..as I said..I did expect AZ would be be the choice...but is it THAT much better than NM?

Flipping through the Boone and Crockett record book.. (13th edition) and purusing the Coues listings, I notice something interesting...New Mexico is strongly represented...considering the Coues only ranges in a relatively small western sliver of the state...but considering the total range, the New Mexican Coues seems to be growing equally as large as the Arizona or Mexican deer are...

Okay as I said way back in my first post here...some time back..I grew up reading Jack O' Connor....and he writes that he prowled the desert, poking into draws and so on...until he spooked a deer. But I reading in Mr. Adams book (and I bet Mr. Adams would prefer I didn't call him 'Mr. Adams') he mentions glassing, bipods, (bipods? what happened to Jack's dream of the 8 lb rifle being perfect?) and the implication (which maybe I am misunderstanding) is long range shots, as opposed to a careful stalk...one post I made earlier back when I first joined..someone refered to a 300 yard shot at a Coues as a 'chip shot'... But Scott Adams, Duwane Adam's cousin, and a member here, with whom I have exchanged a couple of PMs over the past couple of days, tells me he used an inline muzzleloader (admittedly a curse word to me) to take a Coues at 50 yards..I explained my views to him and he responsed that it sounded to him as if I were a 'traditionalist' and yes, gulity as charged. when I black powder hunt I use a flintlock...sometimes rifle but just as often a smoothbore...when I bowhunt I use an honest-to-God yew longbow..and yep...the fact that 95% of my hunting has been in the East has marked me a bit...here of course, unless 'ridge running' or hunting power line right of ways, typical ranges are 50 yards..or less..in Eastern NC, closer to the coast, deer are pushed with dogs and we use shotguns and buck shot and take 'em at 50 feet... And there is a black powder and archery fourm here, so you westerners also do this now and then...I ain't fussing at anybody...you know..follow the customs of the area...but though I love my .270 (even in the woods) are 300 yard shots really necessary? I remember some months ago, someone commented he used a .45-70 lever action...this is certainly not a 300 yard outfit...I'm all for glassing the area carefully...and basically favor the GPS units, though not as a substiute for the traditional map and compass... but surely you can, with a little effort, typically get closer than 300 yards to a Coues. Can't you?

Well rcdinaz, I can sympathize. Even here in the east, I'd almost rather forget my rifle than my binocs...with them I've spotted deer that they did not know were even there..turkeys and honest to God guys, I am not saying those long shots are wrong...not by any means. And yes I am fully aware that my decades of eastern hunting have 'marked' me as has my reading and rereading of Jack O'Connor..I mean geez..the man died 36 years ago and he left Arizona and Coues hunting 65 years ago. (Two years before I was even born!) So yes my thoughts are dated and yes quite possibly out of step with the current methods, But I am a traditionalist, a 'classicist' (if that is even a word) and a proud member of the Old Fogey Society...Progress is always change but is change always progress? Not hardly. So yes, I am perfectly willing to admit that 300 yard (or greater) are needed for Coues...(My one other western hunt was for Pronghorns in WY, and I know dang well that 300 yards are the norm there..) but I do question that it is always the way it has to happen, and that you simply can not get closer.. To me, 99% of hunting is making sure you explore the option of getting closer...there are a lot of pluses there..you will shoot better at shorter range..your bullet will hit harder..still carrying more of its velocity.. So of course you have take 300 yard plus shots now and then...Shoot I've taken 200 yds shots here in East and according to the books, that never happens...and you guys are right...if I ever get another chance at Coues, my .270 and I will spend time at the range and do a lot of work out there at the longer ranges...I will be prepared for 300 yards (and more) ranges...but I will spend an equal amount of time seeing I can spot them closer...or get closer...

And reading Adams book, which was written/published over a decade ago, he mentions, a couple of times, the difficuty of drawing a tag for certain hunts/certain areas. Now my one Coues hunt was back in the 70s...I remember it as 1976, a buddy who went with me remembers, variously remembers 1977...or possibly as early as 73...in any event you see my point..it was a long time ago... Now back then, as I remember,once you got your license, no one much cared where you hunted...well the reservations were off limits, but that was about it... We hunted the Chiracahua mountains...saw one buck hauling a$$ over the next ridge about half a mile away, some tracks, some droppings but that was about the extent of our 'luck'. But these are deer tags! Not elk, not sheep. Deer. Whitetails at that. I can legally take four whitetail deer a year right here in North Carolina, though of course they are not coues but still......so are Coues tags really that tough to get?

Well I noticed the table in Mr. Adams book the later hunts had far higher success ratios than the earlier ones...so by that, I assume the earlier hunts are easier to get tags for?

Finally got my hands on Duwane Adams Coues book, (tried to order through here but my computer is ailing and I wasn't able to..since I had fairly respectable order going through Amazon anyway, I got it through there..paid a lot more for it though) Got it yesterday though, and flipped through it before settling down with it..and a couple of things struck me.. The book seems to deal primarily with Arizona, no problem there since the Coues is primarily, in the US at least, a 'Arizona deer'...but I was surprised that Arizona has two (and sometimes three) hunts in their management areas, and while I have no doubt whatsoever, that the AZ fish and wildlife management is full of people much much smarter than me, I was wondering what the exact point of that was...I doubt like heck they do this just because they can...so there must be a reason...anyone know what it is? And a couple of of other things have struck me in the past week so I'll be back...

I was checking Amazon yesterday about Coues books to put on my wish list, and one of them, actually a 'paper" was titled "Monster Coues of Mexico" or something like that. And, as I have stated in several of my posts since I came, I grew up a big Jack O'Connor fan and read he got several of his largest bucks, mulies and Coues, in Mexico. So, the question is, are the deer in Mexico larger? or are the 'monsters of Mexico' just a matter of luck or concidence?

I misspoke earlier. The "Bull Cook and Authentic Historical Recipes and Practices" (Vol 1) by George Leonard Herter and Berthe E. Herter does have a recipe for 'Belgian Jack Rabbit or Snowshoe Rabbit" This book, long since out of print, is actually pretty easy to find on Ebay and on Abebooks.com (where I got mine)....Herter books are fun to read when you are in the right mood and often have some useful and/or interesting tidbits in there but sadly, Good Ole George was not apparently hopelessly addicted to the truth so there is a lot of BS in its purest form in the very same books...