nralifer

You might consider a chassis system for your Savage. The gun in the photos is a Savage Model 10 in 6.5X47 on a Masterpiece chassis.The thing is packed with features and a center feed magazine for a 308 Win should work for your 22-250. To get all the specs on the chassis got to the MPA web site. You can call them to see if there would be any issues with your Model 11 action, but I doubt it. One feature I particularly like is the level indicator in the chassis itself which is easily seen while aiming. This gun is capable of sub 1/4 inch groups with this chassis and a Barlein 8.5-7 gain twist 26" barrel. You can also glass bed the cation in the chassis if you want or use it for other short action Savage rifles you might have

Donald Trump himself is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. I have seen interviews where he admits to carrying a concealed weapon. Wonderful to see that he raised his sons with an appreciation of hunting and the outdoors. With him in the Whitehouse we will not go the way of Australia.

lancetkenyon, You offer is very generous. We have the 150,180 and 196 gr 308. From the looks of it you likely have a 30 cal magnum of some type, which would be perfect. My email is shrlandgeo@gmail.com. Shoot me an email with contact information and we can arrange to send you some.

lancetkenyon, I assume your last post describes the test on the rifle you built in memory of your father-in-law. That was a very touching gesture matched only by the quality and beauty of the rifle. Thanks for sharing. Looks like you have an ideal test facility. A calm day in SD is 10-15 and gusty. I should spend my time making wind turbines instead of bullet testing. For the sake of illustration the 150 BD bullet in my the post that compared it to the Hornady 7mag factory loads, plugging in your atmospheric conditions into the shooters trajectory calculator gives the following result for 500 and 1000yd drop and sight height 1.5" MV 3150 150gr all copper HP tipped BC .480 (measured) 500yd = 33.4" &1000 yd = 242" Clearly the 7mm 180 gr Berger is a superb bullet. We have used Berger as a benchmark to test the efficiency of our bullet designs. By reducing barrel friction and using a more efficient powder the performance of the 308Win is clearly increased. This bullet is stable out of a 1:10 barrel. Eventually we will see what can be done to the 180gr 30 cal bullet to function from a 1:8 twist. Above are some examples of the bullets we have been making and testing. The 30 cal 150BD in question is just to the left of the 155 Amax (red tip far Rt). The 150BD has 20-25% less bearing surface than the Amax. The big one to the far Lt is a 260 gr 338 bullet and the one in between is a 180gr 30 cal solid.

lancetkenyon, The trajectory you quoted for the 180 gr 7mm bullets is impressive. Maybe give us some more data on the set up. What were the atmospheric conditions, sight height, zero distance (200yds?) and the calculator used? I would like to plug in my data into the calculator you used under the same conditions and see how the trajectories compare. Also the bearing surface for the 150BD bullet is about 20-25% less than the 155gr Amax. This weekend I will see how it performs out of a short mag case. The reason I ask about the trajectory calculator and the atmospheric conditions is that plugging in the BC and MV you quoted for the .675BC bullet into the Shooters Trajectory Calculator I get 34.4 in drop at 500 and 231.58 in drop at 1000 yds under standard conditions assuming a sight height of 1.5 inches and a 200 yd zero sight in.

I would get some surplus non-corrosive military ammo since it is cheap and can be used to not only break the barrel in but also sight the scope in. After that it is a matter of trial and error as to which ammo shoots better and what you will hunt with it. Hornady makes very good ammo and has a wide variety of bullets to pick from.

One major advantage that 7mm rifles have one the 30 caliber rifles is that factory rifles have tighter twist rates, allowing the stabilization of longer bullets that have long ogives. This translates into higher BCs, but the major advantage that 30 cal rifles have is a larger bore diameter permitting greater bullet energy and speed. To get a 180 30 cal bullet to exceed 3000 fps is not hard, and can be done with the short mag and conventional powders and possibly the 30 06 case and Superformance powder. Slow twist rates have been responsible for the underperformance of some excellent cartridges. The most dramatic example is the 6mm Remington, a superior cartridge to the 243 Win, but the 243 became more popular because of the 1:10 twist that allowed stabilization of the 100 grain bullet. Likewise the 270 has been overlooked as a long range cartridge because the 1:10 twist barrels that dominate factory rifles are not able to stabilize long bullets. Berger makes a 170 gr bullet that requires a 1:8 twist but has a G1 BC of .665, so there are some shooters already realizing this a Berger is tapping into that market. Wonder what one could do with that bullet in a 270 Wby mag cartridge with a 1:10-1:8 gain twist 28" barrel. What the practical limit on twist rate is I do not know, but there has to be a point where the twist becomes so tight that it significantly increases friction and pressures limiting muzzle velocity.

Those are potent loads. Would be great if you shared your recipe and rifle specifications with the forum members some of which might like to try them. I like the 308 Win because it is such an efficient cartridge. It works extremely well and brass is never a problem to find. It is also very accurate and barrel life is excellent. To get it to shoot with a trajectory similar to some 7RM factory loadings is a real bonus, and to do that with an all copper bullet is even better.

All of your comments are well taken. The chronograph issue, I think is settled because I have a Magnetospeed and have correlated it to the Oehler. The Oehler consistently gave slightly lower velocities than the Magnetospeed. The Oehler is inherently more accurate than Crony since it uses a third detector and measures the speed over a longer distance. Whether the Lab Radar is better is hard to say. LVR burns at a slightly lower velocity as compared to CFE223 and Varget. The LVR charge I used for the 150 gr bullets tested was over a grain lower than Hodgdon lists as a max load for CFE223 for the 150gr Nosler E tip. That load produces 60,400 psi, and the E-Tip is an all copper bullet similar to ours. I am going to see if I can get the same speed from other 150 gr bullets. Perhaps our bullet has less barrel friction since it was designed to have less bearing surface. My next test will be with the Sierra 150 gr tipped Match King, an intriguing bullet since they list a BC of 0.51 for that bullet.

Ever thought that a 308 Winchester (not magnum) could duplicate the 1000 yard trajectory of a 7mm Rem magnum? Impossible!? Well, with the right components it can be done. The comparison is between the 7mmRem Mag Hornady factory ammo and our .308 Win load using 50 gr of Leverevolution powder, WLRM primer,Lapua brass from a Savage rifle barreled with a Bartlein 5R 24" barrel. The 308 bullet used was a 150 grain prototype all copper hollow point bullet tipped with an aluminum tip (150 gr BD) designed by my partner in crime, Jason. The measured BC was 0.480 average of 8 shots measured over 654 yds by the method described in my post in the Long Range Shooting forum. The muzzle velocity of the 308 Win load averaged 3150 fps using an Oehler 35 chrono. Using the data on the 7 Mag load as specified by Hornady on their web site and calculating the trajectory using the Shooters Calculator assuming a 200 yds zero the results are as follows 308Win 150grBD BC 0.480 MV 3150, 500 yd drop 34.3 in 1000 yd drop 255.6 in Hor 7RM 154SST BC 0.525 MV 3100 500 yd drop 33.2 in, 1000 yd drop 239.7 in Hor 7RM 162 Interlock BC 0.514 MV 2940 500 yd drop 39.1 in 1000 yd drop 285.4 in The results again illustrate that with the right components the performance of "standard" calibers can be excellent. I am not suggesting that the 308 Winchester is the equivalent of the 7 mag. The Leverevolution powder load used did not create any pressure signs, and the 154SST load quoted is the Hornady Superformance load. I will post some pictures of the 308 bullet and the groups we shoot with it when we make more bullets for further testing.

I would like to share a method we have been using to measure ballistic coefficients (BC) of not only commercially available bullets but also bullets we are developing. The materials needed should be readily available to anyone doing long range shooting and reading this forum. These include a personal computer with a built in microphone, downloaded Audacity software that records a sound wave form (this is a free download), two Meridian walkie talkies (about $50), a steel gong, a chronograph, access to the JBM ballistics web site, a laser range finder, a cardboard box lined with foam that will fit your computer, a cell phone, the Weather Channel app on the phone, and a place to shoot. We have used this method to measure the BC of Berger bullets and found that our measurements are within less than 5% the BCs published by Berger on their website. We measure the time of flight by measuring the time elapsed between the muzzle blast and the bullet impact on the gong, and do this over 400-650 yds. The method works best in calm conditions but will work in winds up to 20mph. Beyond that wind calls become a problem. To do this one places one of the WTs in transmitting mode behind the gong about 2 feet in such a way that it will not be struck by the bullet or bullet splatter. The other WT is in receiving mode at the computer whit itself is within the foam lined box to not lay shade the monitor from the sun, but also to reduce background noise. The computer microphone should be about 3 feet away from the muzzle. With the Audacity software recording, a shot is taken, the bullet hits the gong, and the noise of the impact is transmitted back to the receiving WT by the transmitting WT at the speed of light. One then can announce verbally what the MV was for the shot and the bullet type so that the information is recorded on the same tracing as the shot. The Weather Channel app is used to record weather conditions, or a Kestrel device can be used. The picture shows a close up of the waveform tracing as it appears on the monitor. From Lt to RT there are three main spikes. The first is the muzzle blast, the second the gong impact as recorded from the transmitting WT transmitted at the speed of light and the third is the gong impact as heard by the computer microphone as the sound comes back from the gong through the air at the speed of sound. The shooter will gear two gong impacts as well. The strength of this method is that it will give reliable measurements in windy conditions since the transmission of the transmitting WT is not significantly affected by the wind. Although the maximum distance we have recorded BCs has been 650 yds, theoretically this could work over 1000 yds. The limiting factor is flight time since the JBM calculator only allows flight times of under 1 second. 400-500 yds seems work the best since gong hits are reliable in windy conditions (a big factor in South Dakota). This method tends to underestimate by less than 5% the published Berger BCs. We think it works well as a method of comparing bullets relative BCs. and to see if those BCs published by other companies are inflated.

We had the opportunity to do some bullet testing this yesterday. Tested three bullets we designed against the standard, the 185 gr Berger Juggernaut. Used a 308 Win and Oehler 35 chrono. Measured BCs over 654 yds. Wind was marginal at 6-15 mph, mostly 12mph mostly straight on but as time went on became gusty and would shift directions. The bullets we made are all copper hollow points tipped with aluminum tips (see pics on "Berger Failed Me Horribly"). We call them Bulldozers (BD). Results are as follows: 150 BD BC of 0.480 180 BD BC of 0.540 196 BD BC of 0.575 185 Berger BC of 0.542 (advertised BC of 0.555) We used the BC measuring method as described above For the Berger bullet the difference in BC measured vs advertised is 0.013, or 2.3% of advertised. We see this consistently, so we have confidence that this method is fairly accurate and is not overestimating the BC. The figures quoted are the BCs actually measured and not corrected. We are happy with the 150 and 180 bullets, and a little disappointed about the 196 bullet. Will be making some changes to the design to see if we can't get to measured 0.6 BC. One thing though, we think our bullets beat all the other all copper hunting bullets in the same or similar weight category as far a BC is concerned ( Hornady GMX, Barnes LRX and Nosler Etip) Of note is that I cleaned my barrel prior to the test after about 500+ shots using our bullets and those of other manufacturers, and found there was no copper fouling. The barrel was made by Barlein, has a 9.5 twist with 5R rifling, and is 24 in. long. Shoots 1/4 to 1/2 in. groups with any of the tested bullets and is in a Savage 10 action. In the 308 Win I have been using exclusively Hodgdon Leverevolution powder and WLRM primers.

Very impressive 1125 yd group! What were the weather conditions, especially wind direction and speed?

It really is not hard to set up. If one goes to shoot long range with a gong adding the transmitting WT 2 feet behind the gong and bringing one,s computer is no big deal. The other day we set up, collected data on 30 shots on 3 different bullets at 419 yds and took everything down in 1.5 hrs. The time consuming part is reading the shot wave forms and calculating the BCs.

It's a good way to check the published BCs. You can believe the published BC if you are able to measure within 5 % of what they claim. Also you need at least 5 good shots and take the average BC of the 5. 400-600 yds is about the best distance to use. You can get hits on the gong reliably, and the bullet flight times are under 1 second. Can't wait to test the ELD bullets against the Bergers and our own.

Actually you do not need a gunsmith at all. McGowen has a barrel nut that is threaded for the Remington threads, and will make a barrel for you in 7 mag. I suggest an 1:8 twist rate. The system is called Remage because it works like the Savage barrel nut. If you are on a budget go to any pawn shop, as Upland 81 suggests, and find the most beat up Remington long action magnum anything you can find for the lowest price and you can get. If you can find an old BDL model that is preferable. The bolt face will be the size you need and you will have the trigger, stock and magazine. Find a friend with a barrel vice to remove the old barrel and simply screw on the new one with the barrel nut threaded on it and the recoil lug placed between the nut and the action face. At this point you will need to align the recoil lug to the action. It can be done free hand but there is a lot of trial and error. The simplest thing to do is to get a recoil a lug alignment tool from Brownells and use that. Head spacing on a belted magnum happens at the belt, but I would put an unfired unprimed empty 7mag cartridge in the action with the barrel partially threaded in and close the bolt and slowly turn the barrel the rest of the way until it stops, and snug it down just a bit by hand then tighten the barrel nut with the barrel nut wrench. Cycle the action several times with empty brass or a dummy shell to be sure it closes properly and ejects the brass well. Put the action back in the stock and tighten the action screws to about 50-60 inch pounds each. You are ready to break in your barrel. Your action with the nut is now as versatile as a Savage action. It is possible that you will have to hand inlet the stock a bit to accommodate the barrel nut and float the barrel. A Dremel tool works well for this. To widen the barrel channel if needed, a broom handle or a round wood rod of the same diameter as the barrel shank wrapped in coarse sand paper and some elbow grease works well. If you are not set on a Remington action then, as DesertBull suggests a Savage or Stevens long action is ideal. These actions have an alignment notch for the recoil lug so a separate alignment tool is not needed, and they come complete with the barrel nut. You will need a barrel nut wrench also from Brownells. All major custom barrel makers with make barrels for Savage actions, and your new gun should shoot under a half inch if you do your reloading correctly. I have done both conversions and the Savage is by far the easiest and most versatile action to work with.

I have a friend who has a 338 Lapua with a suppressor made by Thunderbeast. The gun sounds like a 22 mag when fired, and the recoil is about the same. I was so impressed I have one on order. Thunderbeast uses a muzzle brake that is threaded to accept the can itself. You could get one can and use it on different rifles as long as each of the rifles were fitted with their muzzle brake. As an example, if you had say a 270 and a 338, get the suppressor and 2 muzzle brakes appropriate for the 338 and put a brake on each gun. You could then use the can on both guns by just screwing on the can on whatever gun you wanted to use first.

Good choice. Amazing what scopes can cost today. Back in the 60's you could buy a 427 Corvette for less the a Schmidt & Bender.

In answer to .270's concerns I have always been interested in ballistics, and is the main reason I have not hunted big game with anything but my reloads since high school. 2 yrs ago I met a fellow that machined his own bullets out of copper using a small bench top computer controlled lathe. He was self taught, and works the night shift at a local aluminum plant, and also had sniper training in the Army. He knew I was planning a trip to Africa, so he made a beautiful 250 gr aluminum tipped .338 copper bullet for me as an example of what he could do. I was so impressed I took the bullet to Africa and shot a Kudu with it. I also intended to shoot a Cape Buffalo with his bullets, but I saw that the recovered bullet from the Kudu had lost its petals. I did not want to risk under penetration in the Buff, so I used a Barnes 250 gr TSX. One shot in the boiler room and the Buff was down. I saw, though, that my friend had a real talent and was self motivated enough to learn machine programming and some aerodynamics, and was able to program a lathe computer control with a rather complex equation governing the shape of the ogive. He generally got one bullet in three to spec on his bench lathe, but the ones he made had significantly higher calculated BCs than the equivalent Barnes bullets. I decided to form a partnership with him and get a Swiss lathe to make the bullets. The challenge was to make all copper nontoxic bullets with Berger BCs that outperformed the Barnes bullets. The design of the bullets has changed considerably since then, but I think we are getting there. We have had to develop a portable "ballistics lab" to measure BCs in the field at a variety of locations out to distances of 600+ yds, but now we are able to do that and measure the BCs of Berger bullets to within 5% of their claimed BCs. The journey has been fascinating for me. My long range shooting skills have vastly improved, as has my understanding of ballistics and reloading. Lead is certainly close to ideal bullet material for hunting but it is toxic, and since I like to eat what I kill, I would prefer not to eat lead or feed it to my kids. I am not a fan of legislating common sense, and I do not agree with trying to legislate the style or materials used in the bullets we hunt with, but it is a fact of life that laws requiring the use of nontoxic materials for firearms hunting are here to stay, and Barnes has spearheaded the response to such laws. They make excellent bullets, but like all mechanical things, they have their limitations. Understanding their performance envelope and living within those limitations will yield better results. Our testing suggests that they require high impact velocities to expand well. If one understands this and is able to place the shots properly, then the target will drop like a stone. If one shoots a critter in the butt with the world's most explosive lead core bullet, a bit of a tracking exercise is in order. Maybe someday I will recover my costs, but for now I am having a great time and the bullet testing with a successful result is more thrilling for me than actual hunting. As an aside, the African antelope and buffalo meat is some of the best I have ever tasted. The best steak by far is the Kudu tenderloin. Far better than beef.

We have done a significant number of gel tests on Barnes and the bullets we make at low velocity trying to understand what factors influence nose expansion in copper bullets. Lead is easy to get to expand because it is so malleable, but it also flakes off and leaves a wound channel contaminated with small particles for considerable distances out from the central cavity. The large wound cavitation that is seen in slow motion videos of gel impacts is part of the reason for this scattering of lead beyond the bullet path. The BC on the aluminum tipped bullet matches Berger's 168 hybrid and clearly expands better at a significantly lower velocity than the Barnes, so it should perform better than the Barnes. That remains to be seen. The configuration of the hollow point has a great influence on the ease of expansion. Probably the most reliable bullets for expansion are ones that have lead tips and thin jackets at the ogive like the Sierra Game King. Bullets like Berger have long ogives with small hollow point openings to increase BC by reducing the frontal wave drag, but depend on fluid medium to enter the hollow point cavity to exert hydraulic pressure within the cavity to initiate the jacket expansion. If that does not happen then the bullet will not expand as intended. The hollow point opening is only about 0.035 inches wide at the tip and the cavity is cone shaped. So if the opening gets plugged and fluid does not enter the expansion is not likely to happen. The aluminum tipped bullet is capable of sub 1/4 inch groups.

Apparently not all lead core bullets, hence the subject of this thread, and certainly not in The People's Republic of California.

Used the longer Harris swivel model hunting antelope in Wyoming to get over the sage brush when shooting from sitting position. No problem with hits out to 300+ yds

Trying to learn something about bullet expansion. Actually found a Berger VLD in the 100 yd berm at my gun club unexpanded. That was a surprise since the Berger videos of their bullets expanding in gel are spectacular. Clearly the medium a bullet impacts will influence how well it expands if at all. Also the presence or absence of a tip in the hollow point can affect expansion, as well as the design of the hollow point itself. The .308 caliber bullets below were shot in 10% clear gel from Clear Ballistics. The one on the left is a Barnes 168 TTSX impacting the gel at 2241 fps. The tip broke apart, but the hollow point did not expand. The next three are bullets we designed. The one next to the Barnes impacted at 2060 fps. The third impacted at 2600 fps and the fourth is the an unfired example of the other 2. It weighs 168.7 grains and has an aluminum tip that weighs 1.9 grains. All bullets penetrated more than 25 inches of gel

Here is a link I think makes interesting reading concerning bullet expansion http://eu-lrh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=236

The new Nosler magnum cartridges are very similar to the Dakota cartridges and fill the same niche. The difference is that they are a little longer and shoulder angle at 35 degrees and use a 0.532 bolt face. They should work very well with the Superformance powder, and are designed for 3006 length actions. Spoke with a physicist from Hodgdon at the SHOT show and he said that the ball powders burn at a lower temperature than stick powders and have less effect on throat erosion. The 28 Nosler should be the equal of the 7STW and use less powder and have less throat erosion. The 30 Nosler is coming and it really is the equivalent of the 300 WBY. I use a 330 Dakota for hunting and it is a superb cartridge for any big game both short and long range. Brought that buffalo down with a single heart shot. If Nosler comes out with a 338 Nosler that should be superb. Recoil is stout on the bench but in the field its about the equivalent of a 16 or 12 ga shotgun. As a whole Nosler has a nice lineup. Unfortunately Remington is letting the Dakota line wither on the vine and Nosler is taking over that niche.